Mikey152
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Posts posted by Mikey152
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15 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:
Because he has average coverage talent.. he has good size.. he's versatile... hes fast...
He lacks a lot of coverage skill.. he gets beat off press pretty easily... And playing off , sharp route runners turn him around
he is physical and is willing to get his nose dirty which is appealing... But his play recognition and play making skills leave a lot to be desired ... He does have good size at the nickel
I had a fourth round grade as a special teams player and versatile chess piece with some room to grow in the right situation
He probably will never be a coverage savant tho , he's not a pure coverage guy... Tho he has decent awareness in zone
He went right where he should imo
Hence why he never moved outside even though tOSU outside CBs were a relative weak spot.
I will say this, though...a lot of the OSU dbs seemed to have the same issues the last couple of seasons. A bit grabby, good in a straight line but struggle with COD, etc. I wonder how much of it is coaching, because Jordan surprised me with his testing...Id like to see his agility scores
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8 minutes ago, BigAl2526 said:
The challenge of evaluating a guy who played in multiple spots in college is that the player had less opportunity to focus on the techniques and skill set development for any one position. It's tough to find both versatility and a highly developed skill set in one player unless it's Travis Hunter.
Maybe. But he never really left the CB room at tOSU, he would just rotate in at safety for certain looks or to fill in for injury. He was their nickel CB. Even as a deep safety, he was mostly playing coverage. What I think had him slide was our outside CBs these past two seasons were kind of the weak spot and yet they never really moved him outside.
In theory he is big and athletic enough to play out there, so it begs the question as to why they kept him at nickel.
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2 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:
Its also very exciting that he sorta played all over for OSU. He seemingly didnt have a specific role and had to know the whole defense. Very excited that were getting a supreme athlete that knows the defensive philosophy throughout. That he didnt have the specific role to shine in was seemingly why he was available so late.
https://www.nfldraftbuzz.com/Player/Jordan-Hancock-CB-OhioState (near the bottom says played CB, NCB, and S).
The Buckeyes really took off defensively when they moved him to free safety part time. Ransom was more of an in the box defender, which forced downs to play deep middle. When Ransom went down, they played Hancock deep middle and moved Downs closer to the LOS where he could make more plays. He acquitted himself nicely. They kept doing it after Ransom came back and he played a lot of safety snaps in the playoffs.
That said...he is more of a pass defender, IMO. More Micah, less Poyer or even Johnson.
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10 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:
Production for sure. The WR room has COMBINED for 2 seasons over 800 yards!! Please go through every single team in the league and tell me how many have less? The answer will almost certainly be 0. Shakir is the only guy that’s a top 50 WR in the NFL and he’s probably in the 30 range. If you were to draft every NFL WR start to finish he probably goes around 30 and they may not have another guy picked until 65 or later. There are 32 teams in the league.
I’ll throw pedigree in as well. Moore was an early 2 but has disappointed to this point. Coleman was an early 2 but the 8th or 9th WR off the board in his own draft class. Did you he get pushed down because of the strength of the class or pushed up because of the run of them before the next tier dropped off? Palmer was a 3. Shakir was a 5. Samuel was a RB. The pedigree of the Bills WR room pales in comparison to pretty much every team. We went through early in the year using draft trade chart points and how many were allocated to WR. It’s incredibly low.
Cooper doesn’t get a pass. He didn’t look like the player he was a year earlier. What, for some reason, is so difficult for you to understand, if the Bills passing game was WAY better in the games he played. You tried to spin that and then I posted the numbers. You then disappeared for 2 days because the truth exposed your narrative. The offense was way better with him. Period.
Diggs’ numbers dipped. Diggs also had the best 4 year stretch a Bills receiver ever had. The passing game was better when he was here. There’s no doubt about that. He wasn’t the same player at the end, but if he walked through the door today, coming off the ACL, he’d be the number 1.
I challenge you to find any metrics supporting the WRs not being bottom 5. 🤣🤣 There aren’t any other than hope. The OL is excellent. Brady is great. Josh Allen is the best player in football. The WRs are bad compared to other NFL WR groups. Why do you refuse to accept the truth? It doesn’t mean that the Bills can’t produce. Those other factors may be enough to overcome them. It was enough last year. Let’s hope it continues.
As an aside, in the future, if you’re going to call someone a liar, please make sure that the numbers won’t tell a different story. You lost a lot of credibility on here trying to spin reality. Whether we agree or not, doesn’t matter. Don’t argue against facts!! The passing game with Cooper was way better than the passing game without. That’s how this whole conversation started. You said that didn’t happen. The numbers said it did.
I “disappear” because I have a life that revolves around more than arguing with you over something so inconsequential. In fact, as I type this I wonder why I am even here arguing with a faceless internet troll.
As for the numbers, that is the whole point. You didn’t prove anything. If you actually read the whole post (which said lie, or at best an over exaggeration) you would see that the offense had two stretches of three games where the passing offense was super productive. The first three games of the season and Sf/La/Det. The rest were kind of meh.
as for your “proof” you didn’t even using passing numbers…you used offensive production. There are so many factors that go into points per game, and you literally tried to control for one variable as proof, then you made up some fake percentages with no actual evidence to back it up as to how much of it could be attributed to cooper. It’s insane. And all to prove a point. But that is the ultimate irony, isn’t it? In one post, you use how many points our offense scored to justify cooper was impactful, then in another you turn around and say our WR are trash despite our offense scoring the most points in the league. What I am realizing more and more is this is an impossible discussion because there is no logic or rules…all emotion. You feel like we have a wr problem and you will do what you have to to prove it. I, on the other hand, am just trying to understand and eventually support why Brandon Beane makes the choices he does. Big difference.
cooper was a good trade. A third round pick for a guy of his caliber and a cheap contract was a good move for the Bills, regardless of how it played out. That said, he was a bust. Whether it was because he was hurt, didn’t have it anymore, or this offense just wasn’t a good fit it’s hard to say.
just so we are clear, I am not running from this debate. I’m just over it. It is the same thing over and over again. It’s life sucking. So congrats. You win the war of attrition.
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2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:
Lol, we have people convinced that having better players is a bad thing. 🤣🤣 Josh throwing the ball to better players will yield better results. The passing numbers last year dropped quite a bit. Brady schemed guys open.
This is why it is impossible to have a discussion with you. You make subjective statements and act like they are objective constantly.
All I really ask is that you are consistent.
so, in the name of consistency, by what measure are the Bills a bottom 5 WR room? Pedigree? Production? Personal opinion? Player mix? Because it feels like you change the bar to suit whatever point you are trying to make and ignore evidence to the contrary that you will turn around and use in subsequent discussions if it suits you.
if it is pedigree…the bills top 5 receivers were all drafted on day 2, except for Shakir (who is arguably their best wr and certainly their highest paid).
if it is stats…I think it is fair to say that their individual performances last year weren’t very impressive statistically. No 1000 yard seasons and only a handful of 100 yard games. The only problem with this criticism is we brought in a top WR (cooper) and he struggled to produce too. So did Diggs after Brady took over. What I don’t understand is why Cooper and Diggs get a pass for the production dip, but the rest of our receivers have bad numbers because they are bad. I mean, Cooper was 4th on the team in snaps while he was here most weeks.
what I am trying to say is, of course everyone wants better receivers. We want better players at every position. But what we continue to disagree about is what actually constitutes a better receiver and how much of an impact they would actually have on this offense. Because the best receivers are expensive AND they want the ball. So it stands to reason that better production from your number 1 might hurt you in other, unintended ways.
I’ll close with an analogy…just because your car would be faster if you installed a supercharger on it doesn’t mean everyone should run out and install one. We get it, our car could be faster. But after you factor in things like cost, reliability, gas mileage, etc. it isn’t a fit for everyone.
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On 5/7/2025 at 8:36 AM, C.Biscuit97 said:
Even if Cooper was washed (and he had 1,200 yards the year before with not great qbs), he’s still threat that DCs respect. Before him, we had no one that falls in the category. When you have Cooper, everyone shifts down a spot which makes them more effective.
so the Hope is that Palmer is a younger Cooper with upside and Moore (who definitely have talent), and Coleman can take a jump playing with Allen. Personally, Palmer is very meh to me and played with one of the best passing qbs in the league for a team desperate for a number 1 wr. I do really like the Moore pickup.
I still don’t know how really scary this group is but they certainly have some nice pieces and are probably league average when last year they were one of the worst groups headed into camp.
That's supposedly the narrative...everyone was afraid of Amari Cooper. So afraid, in fact, that the covered him even when he was on the bench getting less than 50% of our offensive snaps.
No, we were just saving him for big third downs...as a decoy.
The fact of the matter is, he got more than 50% snaps in two games last year as a Bill. We lost one (rams) and lost our consecutive 30 pt streak in the other (NE)
This narrative that the fear of Amari Cooper transformed this offense from trash to top scorers has got to stop. He was a good swing. It didn't work. He's not on the team anymore.
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On 5/6/2025 at 5:31 PM, Kirby Jackson said:
I pride myself on being honest and using numbers to support my argument. With that being said, I guess that we should look at the offensive numbers with Cooper and without to confirm what I said was true. I threw out the last New England game completely so as to not alter anything. There were exactly 8 other regular season games with him playing and 8 without him playing.
In the 8 games that Cooper played, the Bills threw for 264.4 yards per game and scored 35.5 PPG.
In the 8 games that Cooper did not play, the Bills threw for 203.6 yards per game and scored 28.1 PPG.
For those of you that don’t think that 7.4 PPG difference is significant, the Bills finished 2nd in the NFL at 30.6 PPG. If you subtracted 7.4 PPG and were at 23.2 PPG they would have finished 12th.
Don’t let people try to put their feelings in the way of facts. There they are. Do with them what you will…
Legit follow up...
If Amari Cooper is directly responsible for a TD a game point difference, why is he still a FA?
The fact of the matter is, you are quoting extremely high level team stats and controlling for only one variable. That is why your data is disingenuous...you are mixing correlation with causation and treating it as fact. When presented with underlying and alternative explanations, you are dismissive. You're using data, sure...but only data that proves your point. You also fail to address data that doesn't. That is called confirmation bias and is disingenuous.
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1 hour ago, LEBills said:
Yea what they accomplished last year was historic and will be very hard to replicate. I think Josh in Brady’s system has turned the corner on negative plays and will limit a lot of mistakes going forward, but that rate and the rate with which we got turnovers will regress from the historic levels.
That’s why I wish we had started adding to the WR room more this year and past years. Keon is the only WR Beane has drafted in the first three rounds. Back in 2021 when he signed Emmanuel Sanders, Beane stated he did it because he didn’t want to lose their fastball. But since that statement, we did. When the Diggs relationship soured and he was traded, which Beane obviously wasn’t expecting, there was only one WR left that had caught a pass from Josh (Shakir)!
The Josh/Brady/Oline/James Cook combination made it work to most peoples’ surprise. And will probably be formidable again this year. But Josh’s time to throw and scramble rate were both the highest they have been since 2020 which to me is a stat that reflects pass catchers not getting quick separation. Combine that with the likely regression of negative plays and I worry that the offensive highs we saw last year are going to be much harder to match than people expect. The best way to counteract that will be to add talent to WR so Josh has good targets to throw to and the passing game becomes more explosive. Maybe Palmer and Moore improve that talent level, I believe it is going to be pretty marginal at best. In the end, this is where the WR train argument comes from, bring back the occasional fast ball to pair with the methodical offense we have built.
I understand the WR train premise. I’d even go as far as to say I don’t think it is entirely wrong.
Where I do think a lot of you make a bit of a mistake is you go in with a premise (our offense needs better WR, specifically outside) and you go looking for evidence that supports it instead of looking at ALL of the evidence without bias and coming to more objective conclusions.
Im going to make my case with 4 WR: Diggs, Davis, Cooper and MVS.
Let’s start with Diggs. Statistically, he was a top WR in the NFL with the Bills for most of his tenure here, and I bet few would argue the eye test matched. The prevailing story for his drop off in 2023 was some combination of he had lost a step and locker room issues, but the truth is he started 2023 on fire. Then the Bills hit a rough patch, fired Dorsey, and his game tanked. His targets went down, his depth of target went down, his focus went down. So did his skills erode, was he on the naughty list, or did the offense maybe just change?
Then you have Davis. Total boom of bust as an outside WR. Made a lot of big plays, but his targets also resulted in a disproportionately large amount of the Bills negative plays under Dorsey. Enter Brady and his snaps go up while his targets go down (except in that one weird game where they fed him the ball on short stuff). He’s blocking more and going deep less. Seems frustrated.
Next up, MVS. Definitely a flawed receiver, but pretty much a prototype deep receiver. Big and fast and can track a football. The bills made a concerted effort the first few weeks of 2024 to get him some snaps and take some deep shots, but they could never connect and often stalled drives. Ultimately they wind up cutting him to acquire cooper. He goes to NO and resumes being an effective deep threat there (way over 20 ypc).
Which leads us to Cooper. No matter what your take on how much he contributed to the Bills in 2024, it’s hard to argue that he is the most accomplished WR the Bills have had outside of Diggs in a decade. He might not be a top 10 WR anymore, but he is definitely good enough to be a #1. This is what we all thought we needed post Diggs. But the Bills deploy his on less than 50% of snaps (he was 4th we most weeks) and he has games with ZERO targets. Only one game with double digit targets and he had a terrible conversion rate in it (6/14). Whether he helped or not is debatable, but what isn’t is he did not produce like a #1 wr…or even a #2.
So, you can read all of that and say “Mike, those guys are all scrubs or old or whatever” and what we really need is a star in his prime or a top draft pick or just a really fast guy. It was the players that were the problem. I think you want to believe that because the alternative is harder to accept: The Bills like their offense this way. Sure, they don’t mind having a guy who can get deep outside, but they also see it as inefficient and high risk, so they aren’t going to invest a lot there. I think they like running the ball and throwing short and over the middle. It derisks the offense AND they still scored a ton of points. All that really suffered last year were stats. WR stats. Outside WR stats.
Basically, the Bills have what they want…game manager Josh Allen. I don’t think they WANT to build an offense around assets that increase risk.
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3 minutes ago, LEBills said:
I’ll be rooting for him but I expect very little. He really is a slot player so we will see if Brady can use him Shakir, Samuel and Kincaid all together when they all operate in the middle of the field.It's funny, because he is kind of a combination of Shakir and Samuel...Fast (but stiff) like Samuel and good ball skills in traffic like Shakir. Because of that, I think he is probably a better flanker than either of those 2 despite the size.
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26 minutes ago, LEBills said:
If you are excited for Moore and Palmer, I’m excited for you. I have very low expectations. History shows that most unrestricted free agents don’t improve on their best seasons in their first contract when going to a new team. So I’m hoping Shakir, Keon, and Kincaid can improve on last year as I think they have the best likelihood. Just wish we had more of those lottery tickets over the past few years. But it’s all spilled milk at this point, just hope it gets prioritized in the future by Beane.Moore is interesting...
I don't have high hopes or anything, especially after last season and how all those castoffs panned out. That said, if you throw on some ole miss tape, it is hard to understand how he busted so hard (I mean, he broke AJ Browns school records and had Antonio Brown comps coming out). I think the hope is he played for the Jets and Browns...talk about dumpster fires. If it's because he is a crappy person, oh well I guess.
The problem with Moore is he feels redundant to Shakir (and Samuel to a lesser extent).
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15 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:
Please go ahead and google the numbers before and after Cooper arrived. The numbers aren’t up for debate. Beane or McDermott talked about it last week. It was multiple PPG points and the passing game increased. My “assumptions” are based on facts and numbers. Using Cooper’s stats to debate the results is ridiculous. As I’ve now said to you 58 times in this thread, it isn’t just about what the player does!! It is also about how their presecence impacts coverage. I really don’t want to dig up the offensive numbers with and without Cooper. I’d prefer if you looked yourself or took my word for it. What you will find though is that they were way more effective once he got here for whatever reason.
I just DID look at the numbers. I am gonna drop the last game of the year because it was a clunker. Cooper played in 8 games for the Bills and didn't play in 8 others (first 6 and missed 2 due to injury).
In the games without Cooper, the Bills went 6-2 and scored 30+ points 5 times. In the games with Cooper, the Bills went 7-1 and scored 30+ points 7 times. What is interesting to me about that is...in those 8 games with Cooper, he only played 50% or more of the snaps in two games, and only led the team in targets in one game. And guess what...we lost the game where he led the team in targets, and we scored less than 30 in the other one where he had more than 50% snaps. So I could easily argue that while the team got better after acquiring Cooper, any time he was a focal point they were not as good.
Contrast that with Shakir. They won every game he led the team in targets. Contrast it with MVS (who we cut for Cooper, essentially) in NO. Way more productive.
I also watched every Bills game last year. You can try and sell me this line of bull that Cooper was the reason they got "better" on offense, but it is BS.
You like to use Beane moves as confirmation bias...If Cooper was really worth 7 points a game last year, do you think he would still be a FA?
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5 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:
The question ultimately becomes, “is what they did last year during the regular season sustainable?” The offense worked well until it didn’t. They didn’t have enough juice to get the score when they needed it. Their passing game regressed significantly but it was enough in the regular season. The OL was incredible as was Josh. They set a record for lowest negative plays ever. If that regresses to the mean, can they overcome it? We look at last year’s results and, if we are simple, can say it worked. If we look at all of the underlying reasons that it worked, is it reasonable to expect that again.
p.s. The numbers were WAY better after the Amari acquisition.
your PS is a lie...or at the very least overexaggerating because it fits your narrative.
Josh had two excellent three game stretches, from an efficiency standpoint. One was the first three games, and the other was SF/LA/DET. They're super comparable in everything but quality of comp and attempts.
Cooper had a nice game against SF. Against SF and Detroit he didn't even get 50% of snaps and had 3 targets total for 12 yards.
9 minutes ago, HappyDays said:So I guess I don't necessarily care about total passing yards. I was just illustrating that although you said a lack of WR talent didn't impede us, the clear decline in volume passing stats and passing success rate is an indication that it in fact did impede us.
And of course wins are what counts. Especially playoff wins, where the Bills have now fallen short two years in a row because no one other than Allen was able to make a play at the end. This past AFCCG Cook made a clutch play to score a TD on 4th down. We need more of that from the players around Allen because those moments more than season-long stats are what win championships. When we were leading by 1 with a chance to go up by 8, our offense stalled out on 4th down because we were forced to try and drag ourselves downfield a few yards at a time. On the final offensive drive Cooper slipped on a 3rd down WR screen that should have been a 1st down and more, and then Kincaid dropped his clutch moment on 4th down and the game was over. All of the pretty looking season-long stats meant exactly nothing when we needed someone to come through in those moments.
It's funny you say wins are what count except to fantasy football people, but your whole argument is that our PPG means our WRs were good enough. My whole point is that what I'm talking about doesn't show up in any stats. It shows up in moments.
Isn't it obvious? I'd have traded a 2nd and a 5th for DK Metcalf. His contract would have effectively replaced Diggs' contract which Beane had already been accounting for as part of the future salary cap before Diggs went scorched earth. That's the type of player this offense is missing, a true #1 that creates explosive plays downfield. And yeah that would have meant sacrificing a couple of our defensive signings and probably not extending Bernard. I'd have easily taken that trade off. But we'll find out if Beane's strategy was the right one.
I think the problem is more with your assumptions...That the reason they were more conservative was because of the WR talent.
Ordinarily, more conservative should correlate with reduced scoring. But if ANY coach can become more risk adverse AND score more points, who wouldn't take that? Less passing and more scoring is a good thing.
I know there is concern about rising to the occasion in a shootout, but I think the ability is there. Looks at the Rams and Lions games.
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4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:
You weren't worried about WR last offseason either. Then Baltimore and Houston happened. The latter being one of the worst performances by an NFL QB this century. Because of insufficient quality at WR.
So you were proven wrong.
Beane had to burn a precious 3rd round pick to address it with a player coming off a 1200 yard season that teams had to respect as a deep threat.
And they subsequently produced a full TD more per game after that. (As Beane is proud to note)
That's the difference between being the 2nd highest scoring offense and finishing 11th(Arizona).
And for further perspective on what that kind of disparity means........the Bills ranked 11th in defensive DVOA last season and the prevailing sentiment among fans and local/national media is that they were bad defensively.
That feels like a bit of revisionist history, tbh. Through the first three games of the season they looked like world beaters without Amari Cooper.
Then the Ravens and Texans happened, but what nobody talks about in those two games are A) Shakir got hurt and B) the offensive line played like trash and not because nobody was getting open, but because they were straight missing assignments and allowing free rushers.
so yeah, they let go of MVS and traded for Cooper and they played better on offense…pretty much looked like the first three weeks. But Cooper didn’t really do much, missed some games and was getting out snapped by Mack Hollins.
i think it is hilarious that the first argument brought up when saying we need a receiver are the numbers our receivers put up. But those same people are all too quick to say that Coopers contributions were about more than numbers…he was so good he pulled coverage from the bench.
cooper fits your narrative, I get it. But they scored 30 in multiple games he didn’t play in.
they didn’t score 30 in any games Shakir didn’t play the whole game. And I’d have to check because I am going off memory, but they scored 30+ in almost every one he finished.
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27 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:
Omg, this is Groundhog Day. You do not need good receivers to have a good offense. If you have better receivers than you currently have, your offense will be better.
In terms of a 4th round speed receiver, I’ll go through it for the 51st time because clearly it is still missing for some people. The Bills saw the 3rd least 2 deep last year. That was the case with Josh Allen as the QB which is crazy. That means, the Bills offense faces more defensive players, closer to the line of scrimmage than all but 2 teams. Their strength is getting the ball into playmakers hands quickly. When the defense crowds that space it is tougher for room to operate for the backs and Shakir. If the safeties were deep, Kincaid would have more space in the middle along with Shakir and Samuel. Getting a guy that plays 15-20 snaps and can raise the amount of 2 deep teams play, space will be created for the Bills playmakers. If you still can’t understand it, I’ll ask that someone else try laying it out for you. The overwhelming majority of the board understands this. That doesn’t even get to the potential for chunk plays or PI down the field. Big plays are important too.
Ok, two things...
First, better receivers are only one part of the equation...they don't just materialize. You need to sign, trade for or draft them. Which means you aren't signing, trading or drafting other positions. So signing better receivers only means you are signing better receivers...it doesn't automatically make your offense or your team better. I mean, we already showed how there isn't a direct correlation between receiver talent and offensive production and team record, right? That doesn't even touch the fact that this WR room is "bad" at the top...not the bottom. The odds that a 4th Rd wr would have enough of an impact to change the way a defense plays against us or help us break team records is laughably naive.
Second, maybe you aren't watching the same games I am. Because the reason our offense plays the way it does isn't just on the receivers...MVS is clearly a deep threat and we cut him, for example.
We clearly made a move to limit turnovers and possess the ball. I mean, we played a 6th offensive lineman more than ay team in the league....who is playing two deep against that? We also seem to think that because he has a strong arm JA is an awesome deep ball QB...but he isn't. It might be his biggest weakness. So they chose to be efficient, get big plays with YAC, and protect the ball and their QB and Josh won MVP and they scored the most point they EVER HAVE.
I get it...you think they CAN BE EVEN BETTER if only they had a guy that can blow the top off the defense...newsflash: the bills don't agree and haven't since Dorsey left. They certainly don't think it is more important than improving their defense and retaining key contributors. So far, the proof they are right is an all-time high in offensive production and an MVP for their QB. The proof that you are right is fantasy stats.
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2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:
My goodness, it’s not complicated. The offense being good doesn’t mean every position group is good. The same goes for the defense. You can be a great defense and have bad LBs. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove because you aren’t doing a very good job articulating it. The Super Bowl Champs have 2 of the top 12 paid WRs. A top _____ isn’t required to have a top offense or defense. That’s the entire point I’ve been trying to make. With that being said, the Bills have a top offense without having good receivers.
I don't think you are making the point you think you are making.
If the Bills have a top offense AND poor receivers, it would stand to reason that you don't need good receivers to have a good offense, no? If that is true, then why are you so bent out of shape about a 4th round speed receiver?
Clearly the Bills felt like the player they selected was the better player. They also have proven that they didn't have a need because their offense was a top offense. So what are we arguing about here? They have a good offense, so they don't need a WR. So tell me how this receiver you want is better than the DT they took, player for player.
Flat out, your logic is circular.
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7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:
The Lions led the league in scoring. Goff was the trigger man. Does that make him the top QB? Top 5? No, there’s no correlation. The Lions were the top offense WITH Goff not because of him. The Bills were a top 5 offense BECAUSE of Josh Allen. Nuance
This feels like a pretty subjective take...Josh Allen would be the first one to tell you he doesn't do it by himself and even the biggest Josh Allen fanboy should be able to admit that he couldn't carry ANY nfl team to 13-4 and the AFC championship game. His team has something to do with it.
But either way, all you really did is prove the point. A top offense is about the team and there are many ways to build one.
But sure, take out WR and say QB. Detroit was a top 5 offense and apparently doesn't have a top 5 QB. So either you graded the QB wrong, or a top QB isn't required for a top offense.
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24 minutes ago, JESSEFEFFER said:
I think I agree with the fantasy football remark that Brandon Beane made on WGR. If your WR group doesn't drop many passes or fumble the ball, blocks well for the run game, does really well with RAC, has some solid contributors to STs, has enough depth to overcome injuries and adds to the productivity of a team's historically good offense, that's a good WR room.
Fantasy football doesn't care about any of those things. It cares about volume stats for individual players. Those stats often come from spending much of a season playing from behind and not from a team that is great at the RZ run game. So, they may be bottom 5 in fantasy football desirability but they can be a much bigger asset than that in terms of their contribution to winning. We had the same debate starting last summer going through to end of the preseason in the mega, 170 page "I'm really starting to love this WR room. We quietly got better" thread. And yes, the 2025 group has a chance to be better than the 2024 group.
Agreed.
That's why I was asking for criteria for what makes a top WR room.
Kirby said it can be true that our WR are bottom 5 and our offense is top 5. Well, if both of those are true, that tells me that either your criteria for grading WR rooms isn't very good, or WR rooms aren't critical to a top offense. There really isn't any other answer, and either way that calls the criticism of Beane RE: WR into question.
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24 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:
Lol, I hate this argument. The Bills offense scored a lot of points. The Bills have one of the worst WR rooms in the league. Both of those things can be true. They have an elite OL, one of the best players in the league at QB, good to very good backs, one of the best OCs in the league, had the highest turnover margin in the NFL and the fewest negative plays ever (or something like that). That allowed them to produce at a high level despite the lack of talent in the WR room. If they can maintain those things again, I expect them to remain good.
Why are we believing Beane when his actions show that he isn’t content with the group? He brought in Elijah Moore a day after the draft. He gave a 3rd for 1/2 a year of Cooper. They averaged like 7 more points a game with him in the lineup or something. That’s not just coincidence. Teams changed the way that they defended the Bills. He used 9 (or whatever) of his 30 predraft visits on speed receivers. He can say, “the offense is good I’m not worried about receivers.” You’d have to be pretty simple though to believe it based on his actions. The group is better today than they were a week ago.
Again, maybe the Bills can win again with a bottom 5 group of WRs. They did last year. They had a lot go their way. I sure hope they can. I do think great receivers are important. The Super Bowl Champs pay their top 2 WRs $57M a year. They clearly think it matters. There are multiple ways to win. The Bills have chosen to build elsewhere and to try to win WITH the WR group that they have. It has worked for them to this point. That doesn’t mean that they are good though.
The reason you hate this argument is because you have no real answer for it.
Brandon Beane's job is to make this team better. If he wasn't trying to make the WR room better, he wouldn't be doing his job. But that doesn't happen in a vacuum. There is one draft and one salary cap. Every pick and dollar you spend on one position is a pick and dollar you don't have for another.
The problem with your argument that we need better receivers ISNT ABOUT the receivers we have. It never has been. Nobody, ever, on this board has EVER said we have a top 5 or even top 10 group, subjectively. What most people who aren't on this WR train HAVE said, repeatedly, is that we are spending an adequate amount of our overall resources on WR. Because THAT is what actually matters.
Simple question: If last year Josh Allen and Joe Burrow switched teams, who wins more games?
Every team WANTS all pros at every position. The Bills aren't actively trying to NOT do that. But team building is give and take. You don't just get all pros without giving something...and you seem to constantly ignore the cost.
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On 4/27/2025 at 12:18 PM, Kirby Jackson said:
It’s unreasonable to argue that they aren’t “one of the worst.” They were no better than the 25th best group on Wednesday. They went through the draft and added 1 guy, the 28th WR selected. You can split hairs if they’re 32 or 29 or whatever but tough to make a case that they are better. Good thing we have Josh Allen
I'd like to see the list...and the criteria.
Then I'd like to see their offensive production and win/loss records.
For example, the Bengals had arguably the best WR core in football last year. Certainly top 5. They also had a top 5 QB throwing to those receivers...
Yet, they scored less points than the Bills, had lower yards per play and 3X the turnovers on offense. Oh and they had a much worse record and didn't make the playoffs.
So maybe having great receivers isn't as important as you think it is...kinda like a certain GM has been saying.
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4 minutes ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:
I mean he is kind of a doofus and the "I'm rich" stuff is pretty cringe.
But we just need them to get to the QB in January for 1 year. I don't like that we're depending so heavily on that...but that's where we are.
I don't know...I kinda think the dude behind the camera is the cringy one. Dude was at the game as a fan, not a player.
What other time in your life would you ever walk up to another guy who is twice your size and could murder you and taunt him about his job? Why people think that is ok is beyond me. Then they go on podcasts and talk more crap about the guy. Theyre all losers who should get their butts kicked, IMO.
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1 hour ago, FireChans said:
The Diggs trade is legitimately the second best move of Beane’s entire tenure. Second only to the Allen pick. Without debate.
Without debate?
That pick, the literal pick, was used to select Justin Jefferson. If anything, I think that highlights that doing the right thing doesn't necessarily always lead to the best outcomes.
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17 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:
Per your last paragraph. I hear what you're saying In having a balanced roster- But I also think that's a criticism of Beane.
Bills always have a very good roster with a lot of good players.
But no "elite" players outside of Josh. (And maybe Dawkins)I would rather go after blue chippers and then piece together the roster, opposed to being more balanced. JMO
Like the Jets and Bengals?
To get "blue chippers" you generally either need to tank your season, tank your cap, or get super lucky.
What people are killing Beane for happens to a lot of perennially successful teams. They tried to sign/trade for a few blue chippers like Miller and Diggs to varying degrees of success, but it ultimately blew up in their faces both times and trashed their cap.
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2 hours ago, Einstein said:
2021: Taking Boogie Basham over Creed Humphrey was an all time screw up.
2022: Took Elam. Allowed KC to jump in front of us and take All-Pro McDuffie. Pro Bowl Tackle Tyler Smith went one pick after Elam. Pro Bowl (and one of the best int the NFL) Center Tyler Lindenbaum went 2 picks after Elam.
2023: Took Kincaid. Defensive rookie of the year finalist Joey Porter Jr went after. Offensive rookie of the year finalist LaPorta went after him too.
To be fair, Porter had an up-and-down second year too.There would have been riots if the Bills drafted Laporta in the first or over Kincaid. Or if they drafted a CB.
ironically, you named a tackle (they already have two stars they drafted) and two centers. Hardly world beaters and EXACTLY the type of guys you get at the end of the first round. Not elite pass rushers or receivers like this board wants. Those guys are either long gone or lottery tickets.
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I think the early round criticism is weak…
I get that Elam was a bad pick, but outside of that and the Cordy Glenn pick, who was taken AFTER their pick that was so much better? It’s not like they have a bunch of top 10 or even top 20 misses. We are talking about late 20 picks, here.
thieve had two shots in the top 10 (one via trade) and drafted (arguably) our best offensive and defensive players with them
RB and WR markets are actually insane.
in The Stadium Wall
Posted · Edited by Mikey152
I think James Cook is what makes this a hard decision.
On one hand, I’d say that his relatively light load in college and the NFL makes him a decent investment as far as availability goes.
conversely, that same low usage also speaks to whether or not he offers enough value above replacement to deserve the contract he is looking for.
i think it is a rare case among running backs where fans/the bills don’t want to pay him not because there is concern he will wear down, but more so because his production is likely replaceable for less money.
to put it plainly, I think most people on this board feel like ray davis plus a 30 mil receiver like DK is better than Palmer + Cook.
im not saying that was an option, but as far as allocating resources are concerned, There seems to be a disconnect between James Cooks production and his impact (relative to someone else getting his snaps)