Figster
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Posts posted by Figster
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3 hours ago, SoTier said:
That's nonsense. QBs play for teams, the make-up of which is controlled by other people. Moreover, winning a Super Bowl, especially when a team gets into the playoffs, is often dependent upon things totally out of the QB's control like injuries, penalties, defensive plays, special team plays, and good or bad luck.
You named 20 1st pick overall QB's over a 20 year span. Arguably best signal callers in their draft class. (not always) The only two to win a Championship had nothing to with their original draft designation.
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1 hour ago, SoTier said:
These are the QBs drafted #1 overall since 2000 -
2001 - Michael Vick
2002 - David Carr
2003 - Carson Palmer
2004 - Eli Manning
2005 - Alex Smith
2007 - JaMarcus Russell
2009 - Matthew Stafford
2010 - Sam Bradford
2011 - Cam Newton
2012 - Andrew Luck
2015 - Jameis Winston
2016 - Jared Goff
2018 - Baker Mayfield
2019 - Kyler Murray
2020 - Joe Burrow
2021 - Trevor Lawrence
IMO, I see 1 outright bust -- JaMarcus Russell -- and maybe 1 QB who failed primarily because of the team he was drafted by -- David Carr. Most of the QBs were at least fairly successful NFL QBs even though they generally played for poor teams at the beginning of their careers.
I think your argument for changing the way the NFL draft works is not supported by the facts, so I would "no" to your plan to change the NFL draft.
You expect 1st overall draft picks to become Champions when teams draft them. 10% of this list did. Eli bucked the draft system and Stafford waited for years until traded to the right team.
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9 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:
The draft has to exist in a manner where bad teams get their picks slotted up higher. Is it rewarding a bad season? In a sense yes but I look at it as providing a team that is down on its luck a better chance to improve. Yes it can "reward" mismanaged teams but mismanaged teams bungle top picks so it isn't like a top pick guarantees you anything. I don't think "tanking" is an issue in the NFL as it is the NBA where a singular player can change around a teams fortunes drastically so an organization could conceivably "tank" a season to get a generational prospect.
In the NFL most teams go into a season trying to be competitive. Even teams with new coaches and GM's who are trying to rebuild still end up attempting to build a decent roster even if they eat a lot of dead cap, trade down for future selections or trade away some of their better players for draft picks. So I don't see there being any issue with the way the draft is currently set up.
thanks for the good input
Does league parody If this is what we are trying to accomplish equate to good entertainment.
Its the collegiate star athlete that suffers the most with our current drafting procedure in my humble opinion.
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51 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Why did the Pats suddenly become a bottom feeder team with the same GM/HC?
Why did the Bucs win the Super Bowl with Tom Brady immediately?
Why did the Bills go from a team that needed help on the last game of the season to the make the playoffs as a wildcard to cruising to division titles every year?
it’s a mystery @Alphadawg7
Well I can tell you it wasn't from picking our 1st round QB in our designated picking order based on the previous season. We have Bills GM Brandon Beane to thank, not our current draft designation procedure. Pats are in transition. Did their designated draft pick ( Mac Jones ) fix the problem? No, it did not, and Brady is the GOAT
Last season a cruise? Ummm, how about no, and why you might ask. Coaching change ( OC )
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30 minutes ago, Fan in San Diego said:
How about giving the bottom 5 teams a $10,000,000 fine for sucking. That counts against the cap.
Interesting idea to combat tanking.
Also sends a clear message to the owners - Hey guys and gals, do something different because what you are doing isn't working. Fix it, or sell to someone who can.
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4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:
Yeah all good for sure
But you’re not addressing any of my questions either so none of what you’re saying is making any sense to me.
All good, just this seems like a quick way to eliminate the quick turn around opportunities for teams at the bottom
Thanks man
The biggest problem I have with how the draft order is determined is we are sending the best players to poorly managed and coached teams. Its a recipe for failure IMO.
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26 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:
Hahahaha come on dude. McD and Beane are NOT on the field actually playing. So stop, without drafting Josh Allen early this team is nothing compared to what its has been.
Where would the Texans be right now if they didn't get draft Stroud and someone like Dallas did instead because of your crazy reverse way of doing the draft order? Probably still a 1-3 win team instead of a playoff team last year.
Lol...sorry man, no disrespect, but not only is this idea just bad, your defense of it is making even less sense.
Making yourself look a little out of touch with the thread discussion.
No worries, its all good...
Do you know what the Texans and Bills had in common for the quick turn around? (Aside from great play at the QB position.)
New blood/ new GM in 2021, new HC last season
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10 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:
yeah...the draft. You said it had zero to do with the draft...and now you are saying it was the draft.
You are making no sense man, no offense. Again, your proposal is just not a good one nor will it ever switch to that. The NFL is actually one of the best sports leagues right now of where teams can make significant turnarounds in short windows because of how FA and the Draft work. I mean just look at the Texans (and a bunch of other teams too) as an example.
I'm saying it was our GM and HC that changed everything not WHERE we picked in the draft. Same can be said for the Lions.
Comprende?
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Just now, Alphadawg7 said:
Zero to do with the draft? Are you serious? Ever heard of Josh Allen? You don't think this team is a perennial playoff team now and SB contender because it drafted Josh Allen early? I mean you can't be serious.
How many games do we win last year if Tyrod was our QB? How about in 2022? Does Tyrod put up 9 TD's in 2 games in the playoffs in 2021? I mean Josh Allen has the most TD's in NFL history in his first 6 seasons.
We win because of Josh. We drafted Josh.
The McBeane regime drafted Josh...
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5 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:
Terrible idea. Bad teams would get stuck as being bad teams for a long time. Those teams would lose fans and ticket sales and become what the Clippers were in the NBA for decades when Sterling owned the team.
Bad teams already are staying bad teams for a long time. The Bills didn't make the playoffs for over two decades. So unless you want to call an 8 - 8 season good nothing changed until the Bills hired the McBeane regime. It had ZERO to do with the draft.
ZERO...
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43 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Situations matter. To an extent.
I’m not arguing otherwise.
what im arguing is that great situations can make a B+ QB into an A- or an A.
Bad situation can also make an A QB into a B plus.
Situations will never make a C or D QB into an A QB. Ever. Ever ever.
Mark Sanchez could’ve sat for a year on the 2017 Chiefs with Hill and Kelce and Reid and never, ever, ever, been great.
This is just nonsense. Jared Goff isn’t a Hall of Famer. we all agree he survived, yeah?
Is Stroud a Hall of Famer? What about Herbert? Or Lawrence?
All of them survived getting thrown into the fire.
Luckily for Herbert and Lawrence they can run well and throw while running.
39 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:That was a bit before my time but that must have been awesome, what was the draft like then?
I was only 8 at the time and wasn't watching the NFL draft yet. Yes, watching O J play was awesome.
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14 minutes ago, BuffaloBillsGospel2014 said:
The idea of the draft is to even the playing field otherwise why are fans even bothering coming to your stadium if you now can't even get the best players in the draft when you lose? For 17 years the best part of our days as Bills fans was the hope for a savior prospect in the draft to get us out of the funk that was the continued loop we were in what seemed like forever. The draft is the 1 thing to me that's not broken and shouldn't be touched in any way imo.
Since the two busiest posters in this thread can't even spell parity correct I commend you with this logical post.
I fell in love with the Buffalo Bills at a very early age because of a charismatic and fun to watch RB named O J Simpson.
Drafted 1st overall in the NFL Draft...
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Just now, Punching Bag said:
Make it about money like current NFL - let all players be able to be auctioned to highest bidder. Then players will be more accurate it at calling it a slave auction.
Lol, I love this idea, hahaha
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1 hour ago, FireChans said:
Tom Brady would’ve still been a great QB. Matt Stafford would’ve been a great QB. Regardless of who drafted them or where they played. EJ would’ve sucked everywhere. Maybe the finer details of their careers change a bit, but they would’ve been great.
This is the phenomenon I like to call “drought brain.”
Somehow, a collective of Bills fans believe it’s not mostly just the QB. They believed it during the drought because they couldn’t just admit all our QB’s sucked and now they have to continue to believe it for god knows why.
They think the reason the Pats made the playoffs every year, and the Bills didn’t was somehow because the Pats organization was great and the Bills just weren’t developing QB’s right. It wasn’t that Brady was great and Trent and Tyrod and JP and EJ sucked.
Even when Brady left NE and they turned into a total dumpster fire, with the exact same HC and FO and Brady won a ring in Tampa immediately, they refuse to believe their eyes. I guess somehow the Bills turned into a superstar organization overnight along with the Bucs and BB and NE just forgot how to do it?
Even when we cruise to division titles and playoff berths every year and we have far and away the best QB in the division, it can’t just be that we have a great QB.
Bizarre to say the least. You’d have to willfully ignore like the entire last 20 years of the NFL to still hold these opinions. Nothing matters until the Bills get the QB, right? Now we got the QB and every team in division doesn’t and all the sudden the QB doesn’t matter lol.
Ultimately, as this is a massive tangent, you seem to be operating under the assumption that the first overall pick shouldn’t just get paid way more than everybody, but they should also be encouraged to go to good teams so they can win a Super Bowl? Why? What has Caleb Williams done to deserve to go to a good team to win a Super Bowl? What has he done that makes him more deserving than Allen or Burrow or Lamar?
The answer: nothing. Being good in college doesn’t mean you deserve to go to a great organization that’s a QB away from making postseason runs. You go where you’re selected and if you get selected first, you make the most money. That’s how it goes.
Drought brain, lol, ok
How about scrambled brains for all the good QB's ruined behind bad Olines. Piss poor management like putting Aaron Rodgers behind the Jets Oline. Lets ruin Zach Wilson since brainstorm idea number one doesn't work.
Brilliant...
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2 hours ago, FireChans said:
This is not a refutation. Burrow DID get hurt and the Bengals WOULD have probably gotten a top 3 pick in your system. So again, they would almost certainly take advantage of a bad team that needs to take a shot on a QB.
Answer my question. What Pats team does Drake Maye want to go to?
The Pats got the greatest QB of all time in the sixth round. They got lucky. Most great QBs go far higher than that.!Do you think they thought Brady was going to be that guy when they passed on him 5 times in the same draft?
Answer my question, does Tom Brady win even one championship If he's drafted by lets say the Browns? Doubtful IMO
Does Stafford wait over a decade to win a Championship If he's drafted by the 49ers? Probably not
We have a system that sends the best college recruits to the worst coached and managed teams.
The best players from the draft does not fix badly coached and managed teams.
It does give enough reason for badly managed teams to keep spinning their collective wheels ...
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2 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Why would the Bengals not trade the #2 overall pick for 3 firsts and a second from a team with a bleak future like the Pats?
How does that help “reward” the top QB prospects?
There are two ways to get top prospects in the NFL draft. Lose a lot, or trade a lot of future picks (thus doubling down on a potentially losing proposition). Your plan would eliminate the first option and thus bad teams would be even WORSE more often than not. Because they would be FORCED to trade a bunch of picks that could potentially make their team better in order to have a shot at a top QB prospect. It would effectively cripple most bad organizations in perpetuity.
Your system even theoretically does not hold up to scrutiny, let alone in practice. It wouldn’t work and it would be counterproductive to “rewarding the top prospects” entirely.
Would Drake Maye rather go to the 2024 Pats as is, or the 2024 Pats that had to trade pick 14, their 2025 first and second and 2026 second?
Everyone knows the answer. Dropping you down to -1/10.
Again, Bengals are a bad example and without injury to Burrow would still be drafting near the end of the 1st.
Bad ownership and management is what cripples teams IMO.
Did the Pats even need a 1st round draft pick at QB to win championships?
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13 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Without injury Joe Burrows and the Bengals in all likelihood would be drafting near the end of the 1st round. Bad example IMO.
Without being the worst team in the NFL, they wouldn't have Joe Burrow at all!.
Trevor Lawrence almost makes my argument for me IMO. To good to be watching the playoffs instead of participating IMO. 9 - 8 record doesn't get the job done.
They made the playoffs, and won a game against Herbert (another top 10 QB drafted on a bad team) his second season, and only missed the playoffs this season because he got hurt.
In any case, your plan still wouldn't work. What would happen is a team with a franchise QB that barely missed the playoffs (Bengals/Jags last season for example) would get a top 3 pick, and they would trade it for multiple first rounders to a really bad team without a franchise QB. So what you'd really be doing is sending a prospect like Caleb or Jayden Daniels or Drake Maye to a bad team made even worse with depleted draft capital in the future.
The system works. Your system does not.
My system has not been tested.
Teams losing on purpose to gain an advantage in the draft does not help the league from an entertainment standpoint.
My system makes teams work to improve...
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Just now, Doc said:
And more money. Don't cry too hard for them.
Good point, thanks
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9 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Your opinion is wrong.
Jags record 3 seasons before picking Lawrence:
5-11
6-10
1-15
Jags record since picking Lawrence:
3-14
9-8
9-8
Yes Urban Meyer sucked as a coach. Yes Doug Pederson is better. But the Jags are better now than the garbage they were before probably 90% because of Lawrence. Hell, he had the team 66% better despite worse coaching.
Bengals record 3 seasons before picking Burrow:
7-9
6-10
2-14
Bengals record since picking Burrow:
4-11 (Burrow hurt)
10-7
12-4
9-8 (Burrow hurt)
Did Zach Taylor wake up and learn how to coach after the 2-14 season? Or do we think maybe Burrow by himself is worth about 8 wins?
We could do this all day with the top QB's drafted. It's obvious. Sure, some of the QB's bust. Some folks even argue that the teams "ruined" the players. But they really don't.
McVay made Goff look better than what he is. Jeff Fisher obviously made him look worse. But Goff is who Goff is, which is a good starter in the NFL, but not in the upper echelon. He never will be.
Justin Fields will almost certainly never be good, and probably never would have been good. He may have looked better than what he was in Chicago with awesome coaching, but he wouldn't have been good.
Mac Jones will never be good. He was made to look better than he was in 2021 with a team built around his strengths, but you can only hide a bad QB for long. And now we all know he sucks. Because he sucks.
Brock Purdy is decent. But his system makes him look great. Just like the system made Jimmy G look great, when he wasn't. It doesn't make them better players. They are who they are. No matter how great Brock looks up 30 against a bad team with Shanahan, he's still closer to Mac Jones than Josh Allen.
The game changers at QB, the guys who can turn around a franchise, sometimes despite bad coaching or management, are by and large picked in the top 10. Therefore, it makes total sense that the bad teams that may or may not have bad coaching/management get first crack at them. This is the whole point of the draft. Why should a team like the Bengals who lost their superstar QB to injury and barely missed the playoffs get that shot instead? It makes no sense.
Without injury Joe Burrows and the Bengals in all likelihood would be drafting near the end of the 1st round. Bad example IMO. Trevor Lawrence almost makes my argument for me IMO. To good to be watching the playoffs instead of participating IMO. 9 - 8 record doesn't get the job done.
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13 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Yeah, you’re wrong. The idea of parity is what gets fans buying tickets for crappy teams. It’s far worse for the league if crappy teams are crappy in perpetuity without the hope of getting a top flight player, namely QB.
Your idea takes that all away, just so the #1 pick gets to go to a better team AND make $40M on their first contract. Who cares? The #1 pick already makes the most money. Why turn the NFL into college football where the same 3 or 4 teams are the best for 20 years?
And yes, 1000% dynasties rising and falling helps the league. Because the league is a zero sum game. Every year a team wins 13 games, that means 13 teams are losing.
Look how many Jags games are empty nowadays that they got Trevor. There’s your answer to what’s “better for the league.”
Parity achieved through draft picking order rarely happens IMO. Good players end up going to bad system matches and teams because of poor management IMO.
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11 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Every player that gets drafted to any team and you ask, “do they win a championship,” the answer will always be probably not.
Why do you think it would be better for the league if NE got the first overall pick in Trevor Lawrence and the pitiful Jags got Mac Jones?
For the league, Trevor Lawrence, or Buffalo? Do you think losing a perennial Super Bowl contender helps the league?
I would say yes on the 1st two...
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3 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:
I think this is a terrible idea.
Star collegiate athletes probably think the current Drafting procedure is terrible.
I'm just trying to fixit Jay ; )
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1 minute ago, FireChans said:
No championship is your definition of “destined for failure?”
So drafting Josh Allen was a failure, I suppose.
Does Eli win a Championship with San Diego? Probably not...
Not winning a Championship with Josh would be a failure ...
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14 minutes ago, FireChans said:
Of what?
Stafford took over on a terrible team (0-16) and led them to a better win total every single year he started there. He also led them to 3 playoff appearances and 5 seasons with a winning record, and ultimately trading him got them to the NFCCG last season.
So what is he a good example of?
Yet no championship until he is traded so go figure...
...Detroit goes further with good coaching then they ever did with Stafford...
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Diggs traded to Texans for picks
in The Stadium Wall
Posted
Some bad chemistry going on, I get it. On the other hand, one of the best QB's the league has ever seen doesn't have a WR1, or WR2.
I sure hope the Beane head has something up his sleave besides switching to a run 1st O...