Daily Media Stupidity

[Pac_Man]

For Christ's sakes, you think Gerald Schroeder is a credible physicist.  You wouldn't know a credible scholar if he walked up and bit you in the ass.

345072[/snapback]

Is this your way of trying to say you're a "credible" scholar? Or is it your way of saying you like to bite people on their behinds?

[Britbillsfan]

Right, the US army is far worse than the Islamic Terrorists. All they do is cut the head of construction workers who are there to rebuild the country. And then people in Iraq cry that the services are not being fixed quick enough. Let's not forgot the shooting of charity workers in the back of their heads. Where are the cartoons about those actions?

344144[/snapback]

Where in the post did I say the US military was worse than the bunch of scum running around blowing people up. I clearly stated the vast majority are good people doing a difficult job in awful circumstances.

 

Torturing an innocent man to death in the name of interrogation IS just as bad as butchering an innocent man on TV for whatever warped reasons those MFers have. Those responsible for the use of torture to commit murder are as bad as those doing the beheadings. But guess what, I do not consider the torturers to be representative of the US armed forces, but bad seeds alowed to run amok because of bad leadership.

 

Torture is not only wrong, morally, but it is self defeating in the long run. The refusal to accept this is going to cause a lot more pain in the long run for the West, especially the US, because it is an ideal tool for future recruitment due to the hatred it is causing.

[Britbillsfan]

You may be right. But, and this is a huge point, what incentive do these criminals and murderers have to talk without coercion?

344434[/snapback]

None, and this IS a point worthy of discussion.

 

To put it in a more real world alternative that may persuade some of you who appear to have a taste for torturing suspects.....

 

The IRA were a bunch of racist marxist scum who would never have been able to run an awful campaign against mostly civilian targets. They blew up a wide variety of targets causing great loss of life in the civilian population.

 

Early on in this campaign torture was certainly used to get information and confessions, upon which 'terrorists' were sent to jail for a very long time. End result - the Briitish managed to force large parts of the nationalist community into supporting the IRA, when they probably would not have done otherwise. We encouraged them by our actions and injustices. The shooting of civilians on Bloody Sunday led to over 20 years of bloodshed and the false imprisonment of 'confessed terrorists' (as in confessed under torture) aided this campaign of hate no end.

 

Only when we got smart and stopped using these tactics of interrogation did we start having success against the IRA - we knew who the bastards were by the end of the campaign, but due to good intel, not the torture kind, we were able to so severely hamper the IRA operations that they were all but shut down as far as spectaculars went (you can never stop all attacks - that would have been a pipe dream). Recruitment of informers, largely due to dius-satisfaction with the IRA campaign and knowledge that the UK was now behaving like a civilised nation should, went right up to upper echelons of the IRA and the war was effectively syopped.

 

The IRA are still a bunch of criminals involved in all sorts of crimes, but they are now becoming more and more a criminal network rather than self styled freedom fighters with every passing week. Their days are numbered, largely because they will begin to wear out their 'popular' support, allowing Sein Fein to become properly independent of them and become a real political party rather than the mouth piece of some really nasty types.

 

And even today it is impossible to get information from an IRA terrorist under interrogation, but we only stopped the campaign by stopping our own barbarities first.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

None, and this IS a point worthy of discussion.

 

To put it in a more real world alternative that may persuade some of you who appear to have a taste for torturing suspects.....

 

The IRA were a bunch of racist marxist scum who would never have been able to run an awful campaign against mostly civilian targets. They blew up a wide variety of targets causing great loss of life in the civilian population.

 

Early on in this campaign torture was certainly used to get information and confessions, upon which 'terrorists' were sent to jail for a very long time. End result - the Briitish managed to force large parts of the nationalist community into supporting the IRA, when they probably would not have done otherwise. We encouraged them by our actions and injustices. The shooting of civilians on Bloody Sunday led to over 20 years of bloodshed and the false imprisonment of 'confessed terrorists' (as in confessed under torture) aided this campaign of hate no end.

 

Only when we got smart and stopped using these tactics of interrogation did we start having success against the IRA - we knew who the bastards were by the end of the campaign, but due to good intel, not the torture kind, we were able to so severely hamper the IRA operations that they were all but shut down as far as spectaculars went (you can never stop all attacks - that would have been a pipe dream). Recruitment of informers, largely due to dius-satisfaction with the IRA campaign and knowledge that the UK was now behaving like a civilised nation should, went right up to upper echelons of the IRA and the war was effectively syopped.

 

The IRA are still a bunch of criminals involved in all sorts of crimes, but they are now becoming more and more a criminal network rather than self styled freedom fighters with every passing week. Their days are numbered, largely because they will begin to wear out their 'popular' support, allowing Sein Fein to become properly independent of them and become a real political party rather than the mouth piece of some really nasty types.

 

And even today it is impossible to get information from an IRA terrorist under interrogation, but we only stopped the campaign by stopping our own barbarities first.

345133[/snapback]

 

If you'll pardon a bit of jaded skepticism, I don't think Arabs will react in the same way the Irish would have. These "people" we're fighting are religious fanatics, not political terrorists. There's a huge difference between someone who's fighting for a nationalist goal and one who's willing to die to go to Heaven so he can get stroked by 999 virgins or what not.

[Britbillsfan]

If you'll pardon a bit of jaded skepticism, I don't think Arabs will react in the same way the Irish would have. These "people" we're fighting are religious fanatics, not political terrorists. There's a huge difference between someone who's fighting for a nationalist goal and one who's willing to die to go to Heaven so he can get stroked by 999 virgins or what not.

345153[/snapback]

Jaded skepticism is fine, after all we are dealing with particular sick and twisted sh*ts. But I would still argue against using torture for sound operational reasons, not just moral ones.

 

We can agree that the gathering information on terrorist groups is key to defeating them.

 

The problem with torture, as has been proven time and again throughout history, is that the information gathered is not necessarily the truth but what the victim will believe will stop the torture. In other words they will make things up to stop the pain. Therefore its use can have some success, but equally can have you barking up the wrong tree on too many occassions. This is a real issue.

 

Informants are largely the key to defeating the scum in the long term. I would not expect many (only a tiny number at best) of AQ fanatics to turncoat, but there are many muslims who see AQ as an abberation and evil (after all they kill more muslims than westerners by far) and do fight against them. There will be brave souls willing to risk their lives to infiltrate these groups IF they think they are doing it for the 'right' side. If the US & allies use torture or are responsible for the deaths of more innocent Iraqi civilians than the terrorists (which is the case currently) then they are not likely to risk their lives to support the US/allies.

 

The pretty widespread use of torture is also a publicity coup for the terrorists. It attracts those who might otherwise not take up arms into their movements as it makes great copy and is easy enough to show as happening. Abu Ghraib was a godsend for their publicity efforts. But other stories of US/allied abuses stoke the fires of militancy.

 

What really bugs me is the fact that these tactics are not helping the US/allies, but the really evil men we are fighting.