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amprov56

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    THE ROCKPILE REVIEW – Detroit Goes Down

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

    I look at the team and generally agree with you about an impact player.  The good teams generally scare you with some big=time defender. Hutchinson says he plans to be back for the Super Bowl.  That's something every AFC opponent has to think about. 

     

    I really do think the ultimate question for discussion is philosophy. Groot is a good example. The guy could be the best all-round defensive end in the game. He can do everything. He's coachable. I'm sure McDermott loves him because he's skilled, high motor, durable, and consistent. He's the ideal McDermott player.  Look at Jerry Hughes.  He was a big play guy until McDermott arrived, and then he transitioned to a player more like Groot. The big plays declined, but the mistakes, the plays where the edge was left unprotected, also declined. That's what McDermott wants. 

     

    But Groot is a playmaker without being a big-play guy, and in big games the perception of many (including me) is that you need big plays. Now, maybe out perception is wrong. Maybe consistent play is more valuable than big plays even in big games.  I don't know. But when Chris Jones disrupts Allen on a critical throw in the red zone, it's hard not to think that the Bills need a big-play guy. 

     

    It's an interesting discussion, and I'd love talking to McDermott about it. I won't get that chance. In the meantime, I'm not holding my breath. McDermott and Beane seem to agree on philosophy, because Beane keeps getting guys who fit the McDermott ideal, not the Deek ideal. 

    Perennial Playoff Team!

    Near shooting at last Bills-Lions 1972 game at War Memorial Stadium

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    7 hours ago, US Egg said:

    It wasn’t a thing, but can’t imagine my father and his friends, or anyone their age back then, costuming up going to games back then or in general.

    Cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh and Buffalo fans very much blue collar working in the steel and auto industries, many WW2 veterans. They worked hard and followed their teams loyally, yes much more pure.  

    Near shooting at last Bills-Lions 1972 game at War Memorial Stadium

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    1 hour ago, PromoTheRobot said:

    I heard stories from the 60's of people bringing kegs into the stadium. They did have to buy a ticket for it, though.

    We took a bus from a Penelton bar, Sunday morning they would have beer for sale out of trunks of cars and drinking would begin around 10AM. Many in our group had flasks with liquor they would take into the Rockpile. The hard working blue collar people who made thr NFL! 

    Near shooting at last Bills-Lions 1972 game at War Memorial Stadium

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    59 minutes ago, Haslett_Stomp said:

    My dad used to bring in a big thermos of hot chocolate in the late 70's and early-mid 80's for those November and December games.  Lord know what others brought into Rich in theirs.

    Back in the Rockpile some use to bring in kegs the booze at those games unreal!

    13 hours ago, 1962 said:

    The kid on you tube  is shocked that the fan was able to bring a gun into stadium, that is funny. In 1972 there was no security at the entrance gate it was a different era. The ticket takers were there to prevent fans without tickets from entering. The biggest controversy when Rich stadium opened was that fans were no longer allowed to bring in their own booze. Can you imagine Ralph Wilson’s greed at making fans buy overpriced beer in the stadium. Handguns required a permit in NY in 1972 just like today, and carrying a pistol without one was a felony. A felony arrest would not result in a $25 fine even accounting for inflation. This guy was most likely drunk, relatively harmless, but wired politically thus the small fine.  And yes I was at that game

    I was at that game too, one of the more raucous crowds!

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

     

    No, actually I'm not.   Not sure how that is your conclusion of from what I have been posting.

     

    But anyway, the topic is whether Kelly is a top 5 if he was playing today.  The three other guys I mentioned could be--based on their stats while they were contemporaries with Kelly, who's team did not run as much of the Offense through him. 

     

     

     

     

    It is yes.  And yes the rules favor the passing game more now for sure.  But even in his prime, there were much better passers in the league than Kelly>  I've mentioned them as the only likely guys from that era that would be top 5 today.

     

    What is Kelly better at than Burrow?  We hear over and over how much tougher QBs had it back then---yet every season we see starters getting lit up and knocked out of games, missing games, IR, countless backups getting starts.  Because of so many more dropbacks they take compared to 30 years ago, QBs today take a lot more hits.

     

     

     

    I didn't miss those at all--in fact, it makes my point.  Kelly was surrounded by HOFers.  So they won a ton of games with modest passing numbers.  Imagine those Bills with that Defense, Thurman....and Marino behind Center.  At least 1 Lombardy would be in the Bills trophy cabinet.

    Ya ok!

    • Like (+1) 1

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

     

     

    I understand the hagiography around Kelly, but there's just no way he's a top 5 QB, in his prime, today. 

     

    He led the league 2 times in his career in passing yards (3844, 3593 yards).   He wasn't a prolific passer (even by his era's standards) and his run game was modest.  

     

    Compared to his contemporaries: Marino led the league 6 times (5084, 4706, 4434, 4137, 3997, 3563).  Moon did it 4 times (4690, 4689, 3631, 3489).  Fouts 5 times (4802, 4715, 4082, 3740, 3638).  Marino led the league in TDs 2 times (48 and 44).  Kelly had 1 season over 25 (33).  He had Jim Everett career numbers-plus a few more TDs per season.

     

    These 3 guys, far more than Kelly,likely could have been top 10 in their prime today.  Other QBs in that era were lighting it up---with the different rules, with the different schemes. 

     

     

    Here is what you all are missing, it was not Kelly alone, dominant O - Line, HOF receiver Andre Reed, HOF RB Thurmon Thomas, Talley, Bruce Smith and Bennet on defense, a great FO and coaching. Oh ya, Ken Davis, Don Beebe, Lofton, and others who always stepped up. They made plays! Troy Aikman years ago said you can make jokes about the Bills losing SB's but no one will ever go to four straight again!

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    20 minutes ago, Johnny Bravo said:

    The only fact you keep bringing up is that Reed is in the HOF.   Using this logic do you also think Lamar is better than Josh because he has been voted MVP twice?  Or do you use your own eyes to form your own opinion about who the better player is?

     

    Reed was awesome and deserves the HOF.  I watched both he and Moulds and think Moulds was the better of the two and would have been the best receiver in the league with better QBs throwing him the ball.

    I'm not arguing against the opinion if Moulds had a QB he would be a HOFer and you are right, more to it than the HOF. I watched Reed, a 4th round pick from the giant football factory of Kutztown, PA (find it on a map without google) become one of the greatest clutch recievers in the game. Over the middle taking serious hits and hanging on to the ball, I cant even begin rolling out game winning catches. He had an awesome work ethic, working out staying long after practices and non player employees of the Bills organization will tell you, a great person. I am partial, had a chance to meet Andre in the Gaslight Section of San Diego in 2004, easy to talk to, down to earth and extremely grateful the Bills drafted him in the 4th round. I want to stress I agree with all about Moulds and would loved to have seen him in the K Gun with Reed during the no huddle prime years and credit him along with Flutie for keeping a team in decline in the playoffs, 1998 - 1999. Andre is in the HOF, well deserved and he has Kelly and the K Gun to thank and makes no bones about, to me, the greatest WR in Bills history, 1985 through 1999, a true Buffalo Bill and a fan favorite for 15 years!!!

    Coach of the year?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    25 minutes ago, Andrew Son said:

    Everyone was always complaining about the over investment in the defense…. “You have Josh Allen, just build an unstoppable offense!”  Now that’s what we have and we can complain about the defense!

    Welcome to TBD!

    • Like (+1) 1

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    24 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

    You think Reed would be in the HOF with Todd Collins, Jp Losman, and Doug Flutie???

     

    You are living in nostalgia world. There is nothing wrong with that. 

     

    We all loved the 1990s team. But let's remember these great players once won a AFC Championship game 10-7, and were noncompetitive in 3 of four SuperBowls.

    You never let me down Ethan!

    • Thank you (+1) 1

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

    Lets not act like Jim Kelly was a puny 1930's quarterback smoking cigarettes at halftime.   He was a 6'2 230 pound guy who could have played linebacker in the league.  Players dont get to choose what era they play in.   That argument should not diminish their greatness. 

     

     

    Great post, "tough as Kelly."

    1 minute ago, AkwiredTste said:

    I'm talking about the defenses...Let's not act like the training, nutrition etc now isn't head and shoulders above what it was then

    Absolutely correct!

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    2 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

    His peak was 1991 where he threw for 3844 yards, 33 touchdowns and 17 ints in 15 games.   Thats 256 yards a game, 2.2 touchdown passes and 1.1 interceptions or a +1.1.    For comparison over the last three years on average Josh is 254 yards a game 1.89 touchdown passes and .78 interceptions.  Mahomes is 271, 1.9 and .78.   

     

    Peak Kelly is very comparable to current day Joe Burrow.   Easily a top 5-6 quarterback in the league.    Kelly did his legacy a great disservice by not starting in the NFL until 1986.  Not to mention he was a 23-year-old rookie in the USFL.   If he played for the Bills for his entire career, he would likely be in the top 15 in both yards and touchdown passes all time.   Allen is likely the best quarterback to ever play here but Kelly is an absolute all time great.   

     

     

    Agree with all, good post!

    7 minutes ago, djp14150 said:

    Style of game is different.  The game has gotten more passing.

    Kind of like the "no huddle" offense, I would think the youngins would love that!

    • Thank you (+1) 1

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    Just now, Ethan in Cleveland said:

    You think Reed would be in the HOF with Todd Collins, Jp Losman, and Doug Flutie???

     

    You are living in nostalgia world. There is nothing wrong with that. 

     

    We all loved the 1990s team. But let's remember these great players once won a AFC Championship game 10-7, and were noncompetitive in 3 of four SuperBowls.

    No I'm not, but lets get back to reality, Moulds is not in the HOF! I'm not the delusional here, SB's not in the equation, I have facts you move on with emotion, go find a Doctor Phil!

    3 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

    You think Reed would be in the HOF with Todd Collins, Jp Losman, and Doug Flutie???

     

    You are living in nostalgia world. There is nothing wrong with that. 

     

    We all loved the 1990s team. But let's remember these great players once won a AFC Championship game 10-7, and were noncompetitive in 3 of four SuperBowls.

    Still not sure I even understand this post!

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    7 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

    Please. I saw every Kelly and Reed game. You just aren't being realistic. 

     

    Moulds was bigger, faster, and better in every way compared to Reed except in one category.  The QB throwing him the ball. 

     

    Reed never had back to back 1000 yard seasons. Diggs had 6 in a row, 4 with the Bills. 

    Sorry Diggs will never be in the HOF, understand your emotional attachment, but Diggs is through. Three season wonder, no way/no way/no way is he on Andre Reeds planet, enjoy your dreams!

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted · Edited by amprov56

    11 minutes ago, Another Fan said:

    I think its just too different a game today from the 80s and 90s to really answer this.

     

    Case in point Jim was a very vocal leader on the field.  Nobody today comes close in that regard.  

    I was in Saudi Arabi in 1990, Bills playing the Cardinals on a windy and rainy day. Jim Kelly gets blind sided, fumbles the ball, it get picked up and is being returned, Guess who makes the tackle? Thos watching the game were amazed! And yes, Jim Kelly was a leader, not taking nothing away from JA, he is too, just taking on those who dont know anything else!

    5 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

    Please. I saw every Kelly and Reed game. You just aren't being realistic. 

     

    Moulds was bigger, faster, and better in every way compared to Reed except in one category.  The QB throwing him the ball. 

     

    Reed never had back to back 1000 yard seasons. Diggs had 6 in a row, 4 with the Bills. 

    Is Moulds in the HOF, STOP!

    5 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

    Please. I saw every Kelly and Reed game. You just aren't being realistic. 

     

    Moulds was bigger, faster, and better in every way compared to Reed except in one category.  The QB throwing him the ball. 

     

    Reed never had back to back 1000 yard seasons. Diggs had 6 in a row, 4 with the Bills. 

    If you seen every game then you would not be making this silly argument! 

    • Like (+1) 3

    Where would Jim Kelly in his prime rank amongst todays QBs?

    in The Stadium Wall

    Posted

    5 minutes ago, CaseyatBat said:


    young kids that’s all it is, Kelly and Reed weren’t on the Madden video games haha

     

     

    Seriously, todays young fans are not "football" fans they want entertainment, a long bomb then dance to "Mr. Brightside." Ethan, Andre Reed is a HOFer for a reason, the rest including your beloved Stefan Diggs are not and never will be! Go to you tube and spend some time!

    Just now, Sojourner said:


    I take Reed personally but Moulds and him are in the same ball park. 
     

    You give #80 a QB the quality of 12 his career and the answer might be different. 
     

    The “sky on your planet” makes it sound as though its a laughable comparison 😕

    I agree, Eric Moulds if he had Kelly would be a HOFer today, but he did not! Sorry, he was not Andre Reed!

    • Like (+1) 3
    • Haha (+1) 1
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