Dawgg

Manning has been returning kicks and has played a lot on defense, even starting a number of games. In either case, I don't really give too much of a hoot about the players the Bears got. The bottom line of my complaint was that trading a high 2nd and high 3rd to move up and take McCargo was a dumb move when players like Mangold and Kiwanuka were on the board. In any case, back to the topic at hand: I'm all for re-signing Whitner at the right price, but even you have to agree that his asking price is way too high given his play and the needs of this team. C'mon bro, just think about it

I 100% agree with this statement. Let's take this point even further. If Whitner was a 2nd or 3rd round pick (as he should have been), he would have been making around $1.2M per year. Presented with a contract extension that pays him $4-5M per year, he'd be ecstatic! Unfortunately, as the #8 overall pick, $5M per year isn't enough for Donte. He wants a hefty pay raise. And therein lies the problem. Yes, his status as the #8 overall pick shouldn't impact the decision on whether to re-sign him, but it certainly impacts the decision on how much to re-sign him for. Unfortunately, even the $5M a year the Bills are offering Donte is too much, given his on-field production. How much do you want to sign him for, when taking into consideration where this team is?

Really Ramius? I simply stated that the trade the Bills made was bad. They got Jon McCargo for 2 picks that became Dvoracek and Manning. I never lauded Dvoracek as a player, I simply said that the Bills made a bad trade. And they did. You on the other hand, wanted the Bills to select Devin Thomas with their first rounder. Probably a good thing they didn't. You bought a Whitner jersey and believed that he was the right pick at #8. Once again, you were wrong. You also said Vick can't be a QB in this league. He's one of the leading candidates for the NFL's MVP award. I'll stand by my record of Bills-related assessments any day of the week when put side by side with yours

Shhh you don't want to crush the spirits of those who will defend Whitner to the grave irrespective of his subpar play. You have to be more indirect with your arguments.

Howdy Joe! Are you too intellectually dense to comprehend that not all players are created equal? Nothing on this board surprises me anymore By your logic, anyone who creates a positional hole should be extended. Should we extend Jon Corto to a rich 5 year deal since we might need to replace him on special teams? Jokes aside, you're wrong about the source of my complaints. My complaint has nothing to do specifically with DBs, OL's, and LB's, it has everything to do with boneheaded front offices moves, something this team has been awfully good at over the years. - Drafting Donte Whitner at #8 overall when blue chip line prospects are available is not smart. - Trading up for McCargo in the 1st round when he was the third best DL on his collegiate tam is not smart. - Allowing Clements to walk for no compensation in return is stupid. - Extending Kelsay to a rich deal, which required extending Schobel 3 years early is not smart. - Signing Dockery and Walker is not smart. The stupidity of these moves were apparent from the moment they were made. Posters who actually understood the concept of value spoke out against them then, just as they do now. Lemmings like you, on the other hand, lauded these moves at every turn. So back to your core question: Intellectual honesty has always been there, your comprehension notwithstanding.

The justifications for Donte Whitner's subpar play has evolved over the years. At first, he could do no wrong. He was an up-and-coming safety who was the right pick for the right team at the right time and deserved comparisons to Bob Sanders and Troy Polamalu. Now that 6 years have elapsed and it's clear as day that he's an average player (at best), the new argument is that "Hey, at least he's better than the converted-from-WR safety George Wilson." Irrespective of these ill-fated justifications, the underlying thesis remains true: Donte is not worth the rich contract extension he seeks. This team would be far better served giving it to a playmaking defender than they would extending Donte with a contract to his liking. Donte can be be replaced. If George Wilson steps in, you may see a dropoff but it won't be significant. Those who applauded the pick back in 2005 may continue to hold onto the misguided notion that Whitner is a good player. Nevertheless, it's bad football business to give rich extensions to players who have not performed on the field.

1) None of the fans who knew what they were talking about wanted to run Fletcher out of town. 2) Had the Bills selected David Harris instead of Poz in the draft (an obvious decision at the time) they may have been able to fill that vacancy with a playmaker. 3) Donte doesn't deserve to be mentioned in the same light as Fletcher.

Wrong. These clowns have job security because the fan base is so gullible, they get excited when the front office makes boneheaded moves, renewing their season tickets and purchasing Whitner jerseys in droves. In any other market, these clowns would get run out of town.

Don't worry about C.Biscuit97. She knows little about the business of football and is incapable of objective thought. BADOL put it well, referring to her as the Matt Millen of TBD

These posts are humorous. Anyone who thinks Donte Whitner is worth $5M a year has no concept of value whatsoever. These fans are the same lemmings who lauded the Dockery and Walker signings after they happened and the same sheep who were psyched about the McCargo selection. With such a gullible fan base, it's no wonder Modrak, Overdorf and Brandon have lifetime job security!!! :lol:

1) Losing Whitner will not hurt the Bills provided they can find a credible veteran in his place. 2) Credible free agents do come to Buffalo. The only reason you can't remember the last impact signing is because the Bills never really bid for them. They were busy wooing the likes of Derrick Dockery and Langston Walker! At the end of the day, there are 32 starting positions available at SS and the Bills hold one of them. 3) Now suppose you are correct and that no viable free agent safety will want to play in Buffalo once Whitner departs. The drop off from Whitner to Scott/Wilson is not significant enough to justify paying Whitner top-5 money. That money is better utilized toward extensions for Parish, Stevie Johnson and Kyle Williams. 4) Another factor to consider: Drayton Florence is a free agent and will likely command a hefty pay raise. He's far more valuable to this secondary than Whitner. 5) Clements is not the second-coming by any means... just merely stating that keeping him was a better option than using the money to sign ineffective offensive linemen.

I'm sure he (unlike Mr. Timothy Graham) is secure enough in himself to realize that public message board comments do not often reflect reality and need to be taken with a grain of salt.

First off, as a Bay Area resident I'll say that although Clements take chances and gets burned from time to time, he has also made a number of plays for SF (something Whitner has not done). Second, after letting Whitner walk, the Bills used the saved funds to spend heavily, signing Derrick Dockery to what was then the richest contract in the history of Buffalo sports and following that up with the asinine signing of Langston Walker to a 5-year deal. While posters on this board were lauding those moves as addressing the offensive line, those who actually knew what they were talking about knew that these signings were suspect from the beginning.

I'll stick with Badol's excellent post above. Link provided for your convenience.

1) I don't care to provide you with any sources to compensate for your lack of knowledge on the business of Pro Sports. But what i stated was fact, not reading between the lines. If you choose to believe otherwise, feel free to do so. I frankly couldn't care less. 2) "Assume the worst???" How is stating that he's looking for an upper echelon contract assuming the worst? There is nothing wrong in aiming high and quite frankly, I think all players should hold out to get as much as they can get. If you think Tom Condon is looking for a mid-tier contract, you have no idea what you're talking about. If you need factual evidence to spell it out for you, you're even worse off. His play has been OK. Not good, not great, not poor, but OK. Anytime you have 4 dropped INTs, one of which was a potential game-winner and a missed sack because you jumped up in the air instead of tackle the QB, there is absolutely no way your play can be considered "pretty good." I don't care how many tackles he has been OK. Don't think money is affecting his play. He's just trying to get the Bills to outbid themselves. If the Bills were smart, they'd let him shop around and see what he can get on the open market first. If he wants to stay in Buffalo (as he claims), he'd give them an opportunity to match or beat any offer out there.

... or perhaps the asking price is based on what Condon was fairly confident Whitner would get from the Bills. The Bills are notorious for overpaying for subpar talent, as the agents for Derrick Dockery, Langston Walker and Chris Kelsay can attest. In any case, I'm not saying the Bills should surely let him walk; just saying there's no sense in caving to his demands now, when his value has yet to be determined. If he really wants to stay in Buffalo (as he claims) he'll give them a final chance to match or beat any offer out there. My hope is that Buffalo won't overpay him because the money is more adequately used toward other, more productive players on the team.

as for those who called it from Day 1, rock on!

All Whitner is trying to do through his whining Twitter campaign is pressure the team to overpay in a panic. Thankfully (and shockingly) it doesn't appear to be working. Yet. Why not let him test his market value??? If it's a franchise caliber player, you don't dare let them test the open market. If it's Whitner? Who cares!!!

There it is Dr... stupidest inquiry of the month... joining the TBD Peanut Gallery with no common sense. Link? Source? Were you in the room? Didn't think so. 1) I know this for a fact: Tom Condon doesn't take on clients unless he feels he can get them an upper echelon contract. He's the most powerful agent in pro sports and he doesn't just take anyone on as his client. If it's a modest contract, it's usually not worth his time. I don't need to reveal a source to you, because quite frankly, I don't give a schizz what you think. 2) Whitner himself stated that they are very far apart. It stands to reason that given his agent and his high opinion of himself, he is seeking to be paid top dollar. Given Whitner's statement that they are far apart on dollars, it seems reasonable to assume that the Bills are offering him substantially less than that. It doesn't take much to figure out what's going on here. Whitner has no incentive to sign a modest deal the Bills have in place without testing his market value. The Bills have no incentive to overpay a player who has been somewhat ordinary throughout the course of his career. Hence the impasse.

and Whitner doesn't fall in that category. If he was making all the plays he could, you may have an argument. But when he drops INTs, takes poor angles and gets beat in coverage with regularity, there are other issues at play beyond his supporting cast (or lack thereof). He has a lot of heart and it's great to see that he actually cares out there, but his contract should be a reasonable one not an extravagant one. Given that he's looking for the latter, I can't blame the front office for balking. Perhaps they're doing the right thing in letting him shop his services around and see what he can get. If he gets a compelling offer, then they can see if it's worth outbidding him. Negotiating against themselves at this point and caving to his extravagant demands is pointless.

That's the point, Dave, that Whitner is looking to break the bank. If Whitner was truly the team player he purports to be, he wouldn't have had a protracted holdout prior to his rookie season when the Bills did him a huge favor and chose him earlier than he was projected to go, he wouldn't continually encourage rookies to holdout for the last dollar (as he has with McKelvin, Spiller and Hardy) and he wouldn't have hired Tom Condon as his agent. I'm sure the Bills will offer him a raise from his rookie contract and a modest one at that... but Whitner is looking to get PAID. Can't blame him for shooting high, but you also can't blame the front office for balking, when that money is better allocated to players like Kyle Williams, Roscoe Parrish and Stevie Johnson. If he's willing to take $3M per year, sure, resign him. But if he wants top-dollar for a safety, even you have to admit that's a ludicrous request given his on-field play. This has nothing to do with his draft selection. P.S. Lawyer Milloy (the man he replaced and the player you hated on perennially) is having a great season in Seattle, at the ripe old age of 37 and has played better than his 25 year old counterpart.

I guess on-field productivity doesn't matter to Bill Belichick.

Whitner is an average safety, not a good safety. The fact that he's the best safety on a defensively weak squad is not saying much. His draft position has nothing to do with this argument. HIs subpar play has everything to do with it. It's nice to see that the front office understands that he is simply not worth what he's asking for.

Missed opportunities have been the story of his career. Sure, he hasn't had the benefit of a dominant pass rush, but when plays are there to be made, more often than not Whitner shies away from making them. He's whiffed on INT's -- not intentionally, but they are nevertheless plays an NFL-caliber safety should make -- and if you saw the onsides kick in the Dallas MNF meltdown, you'll see that Whitner stood there watching as the ball rolled by him. The larger the moment, the smaller Donte Whitner plays. He's great at jumping onto a pile. He's even better at tackling a tight end after he was beat in coverage. That said, he's an average player. Whitner, however, thinks he's an elite player. Therein lies the problem. So I agree with you that he deserves an average contract. But average is not what he's looking for. He didn't hire Tom Condon in the offseason to get an average contract. This is a team that did him a huge favor. They picked him about 10 slots ahead of where he should have gone; they have kept him in the starting lineup despite his often times below average play and they have defended him amidst criticism. But from the moment we saw Donte's extended holdout before his rookie season, it became apparent that he has way too high an opinion of himself to justify the pay he's seeking. The man he replaced – Lawyer Milloy – is playing better than him in Seattle at the age of 37. If he wants average or slightly above average safety money, more power to him, extend him. If he wants, more, then don't let the doo hit you on the way out, Donte. I agree, though he doesn't deserve anything more than average safety money.

When you blatantly drop 3-4 INTs in one season and you get fooled repeatedly by opposing running backs and your lone distinction is making tackles in the end zone after the opposition has already scored, you don't deserve a big-money deal. I'm sure the Bills are offering him some solid coin and a pay raise over what he's making now. Donte and his agent want more and that's perfectly reasonable -- let someone else give it to him. The money saved on the Whitner contract can be used to give raises to Stevie Johnson and Kyle Williams, two players who actually show up and make plays on Sundays.