Stranded in Boston
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Posts posted by Stranded in Boston
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Ah, thanks for that, Chandler! As a young Bills fan who suffered through the grim 1970s, those two seasons were electrifying!
That team was set up by Stew Barber & Chuck Knox's spectacular 1979 draft, maybe the team's best ever. #1 pick Tom (%$#@) Cousineau jumped ship (although ultimately yielded the draft pick that netted Jim Kelly) -- but the next THREE guys chosen -- Jerry Butler, Fred Smerlas and Jim Haslett -- were pro bowlers. The Bills also nabbed free safety Jeff Nixon in the 4th round, who was an interception machine until he blew out his knee. The next year they picked up two more pro-bowlers, Jim Ritcher and Joe Cribbs. Ritcher was a stud for years, and Cribbs was the arguably the league's best offensive dual-threat for a few years.
Good times, man! ?
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2 hours ago, Stank_Nasty said:
While I love me some John brown he makes great points on him and that people value those 5th and 6th rounders wayyyyyy too much.
Good point, Stank. I think people forget that when your team is good (like we finally are!), lower-round players have much less impact, and even have difficulty making the team. Case in point: I can't remember a lot of 5th/6th round players making much impact on the great early-1990s Bills teams. If a team is generally set at most positions, low-round picks just don't factor as much. And if Diggs pays off this year, that 4th rounder next years will also look trivial ...
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11 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:
While it’s not 75%, it is pretty high. A perennial Pro Bowler is absolutely expected with the 1st overall and usually is the case.
Well, not to get all lawyerly on you, but the 75% figure is justified under my phrasing "led to" HOFers. ? But even 50% is good: I just reviewed a history of the draft, and only 12 first-overall picks have become HOFers since *1936*, more than 80 drafts (that's <15% HOF rate -- but check my math ?). So the Bills have been good/lucky with their first overalls. (And yes, if you're wondering, I am getting a little bored confined to home in Boston ...)
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1 hour ago, SoTier said:
In the 20 years between 1967 and 1986, the Bills had the #1 pick in the entire draft 4 times (OJ Simpson (1968), Walt Putulski (1972), Tom Cousineau (1979), and Bruce Smith (1985)), 3 top 5 picks, and 2 top ten picks. Simpson and Smith both held out a long time before finally signing with the Bills. Cousineau chose to play in the CFL rather than for the Bills. Jim Kelly (the only QB taken in the first round during this period) chose the WFL over the Bills.
SoTier, your post made me realize that the Bills have actually done pretty well when they've had the top pick. To start, both OJ and Bruce are Hall of Famers -- and could be argued to be the best ever at their positions. The Cousineau business was frustrating, but trading him to Cleveland did net the #14 pick in the '83 draft, which produced Jim Kelly, another HOFer. So one could argue that 75% (3/4) of the Bills first-overall picks led to HOFers (I wonder what the overall % is for first picks among all drafts?)
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4 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:
He's only 68, there have been assistant coaches in their 70s. Head coaches too, he's only 1 year older than Belichick.
He was an assistant coach for 19 years in the NBA. If he can translate his NBA experience to the NFL, why not give him a chance?
Ah, all this Bob McAdoo chatter really warms my heart! To the youngins' out there, in the mid-70s Big Mac averaged 30+ points and ~15 rebounds per game for 3 straight seasons ... I tell my NBA-crazed teen boys all the time that McAdoo was Giannis before there was Giannis.
And I loved the bent-knee jumper pic -- with Ernie D lurking in the background!
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The other thing that's odd is that the back judge in the end zone clearly was aware of the wording of the touchback rule: he did not blow his whistle or signal, and he jumped aside when the returner flipped the ball to him. If the back judge knew the explicit rule, why the hell did he let himself be overruled by the sideline officials, who evidently did NOT know the wording of the rule?
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Indeed, I checked the wording of the touchback rule after the game, and JF is dead right: if the the returner catches the ball he must either lie down or take a knee for a touchback. The rule book says nothing about extending your arms for a touchback. Of course, nobody would argue with the "common sense" interpretation that the return man "intended" a touchback (and maybe they'll update the touchback rules in response to this incident). But if the officials can apply common sense to interpret intent as they wish, shouldn't they likewise exercise common sense in interpreting Cody Ford's wholly benign "crack-back" block in OT? The crack-back rule was intended to prevent injurious blindside hits on defensive players; Ford barely knocked the guy off stride. Sorry, but if the officials insist on following the exact letter of the rule against Ford, they must follow the exact letter of the touchback rule as well. The rule is not ambiguous.
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Don't hold your breath for Brown to be suspended if the Saints sign him. For example, could someone please explain to me why Patrick Chung -- indicted on a felony charge of cocaine possession last summer -- has not been suspended, or at least placed on the commissioner's exempt list? I pointed this out to my wife last Saturday during the game, and she thought it was just more of my "F everything about the Patriots" rhetoric ...
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12 hours ago, wppete said:
I’m here right now and no Bills fans in here. All Celtics fans in here. I’m sick to my stomach.Definitely The Harp -- and don't worry, dude: WNY will own the place today. ? The Harp is across the street from TD Banknorth Arena, just steps from the North Station T stop (don't try to park downtown if you're driving). The WNYer college kids are home for Xmas break, so it'll probably be easier to get a table today. But there should still be a good crowd. I used to bring my twin boys with me when they were little (in their little Fred Jackson jerseys), and they got pretty upset at all the screaming -- mostly from me.
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I watched that Pittsburgh game at the old Bills fan club at The Fours Bar in Boston, across from the old Boston Garden. The place was absolutely packed with Bills fans; it would violate fire codes nowadays. I was crammed up against the front plate glass window. When Beebe scored one of his touchdowns, we screamed so loud I swear the glass buckled; I thought I was going to end up bleeding on the sidewalk on Canal Street ... good times!
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I don't believe in conspiracies or rigged games, and I think the refs are doing the best job they can do as humans observing a very fast, chaotic game. But there is *implicit* bias in sensory perception (it's my line of work -- don't ask!). Lots of experimental evidence suggests that our perceptual interpretations are influenced not only by the objective sensory information entering our brains (visual, auditory, etc.), but also by our *expectation* of what should happen/usually happens. For any experts out there, this falls under the rubric of Bayesian inference, in which the perceptual decision -- the "posterior probability" -- is a computed (according to Bayes' theorem) from incoming information AND a "prior probability" encapsulating bias, expectation, etc. Just like us fans, refs undoubtedly have priors about which teams are "better", "more disciplined", etc., that tip the balance in interpreting virtually identical plays. Unfortunately, the Bills have a reputation of being a mediocre, undisciplined team for some 20 years, which impacts referees' decisions on a moment-by-moment basis. Stephon Gilmore is a good example: you can see how confidently he interferes with receivers now, since he left the Bills for the Pats (I've heard claims that he is flagged as much in NE as he is with the Bills, but to my eye he also engages in much more contact with receivers.) Another example is the Cowboys only getting a sideline warning for spearing Josh on his slide rather than a flag (see the Cowboys' mic'd up highlights), whereas the current Bills would be penalized 100% for that infraction. I also remember the Bills getting away with a lot of calls in the early 90s, when they were usually considered the more "disciplined" team on the field.
Implicit bias is a tough problem in refereeing, but what to do about it? I imagine that refs discuss this a lot in training, but it's pretty hard to resist something that's been burned into our brain circuits over eons of evolution! Maybe we'll have real-time machine-vision/AI solutions in the future. I have colleagues working on this now, LOL.
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I think we're seeing a bit of generation divide here. To you young guys -- everybody in Bills-land loves Singletary; he could really develop into a special back. But Joe Cribbs was absolute dynamite. To my mind, he was the original dual-threat running back, presaging by a decade the Thurmon Thomas/Marshall Faulk hybrid backs. Cribbs was a shifty-smooth-strong runner with amazing hands and superb route-running skills. If a defense was foolish enough to try to cover him with a linebacker, Cribbs would absolutely kill them. The Bills had a lot of great offensive weapons in the early 80s, but Cribbs was the original "motor". That said, keep it rolling, Devin!! ? Quick edit -- lest anybody think I was shortchanging Singletary -- check highlights for his fantastic blitz-pickup block on Josh's TD pass to Cole Beasley last Sunday. Singletary totally stones the full-tilt linebacker to give Josh the clean pocket; a real veteran-looking play there.
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What a great game that was! I dimly recalled that OJ was out injured that day, and "Bubby" Braxton carried the load, but OJ apparently did play (thanks for setting that straight, PUNT750). But I remember clear as day the headline of the Buffalo Evening News sports page the next day -- "Bills Dine on Red Birds". ?
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You young guys out there might not realize that we lost 21 games straight to Miami -- the entire 1970s. You know how much you hate NE? That's how we felt about Miami; maybe even worse. We still owe those SOBs bigtime. So as for today, all I can say is ... NO MERCY. ?
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1 hour ago, JohnnyGold said:
5) The Titans were a better team, and played a much (much) better game.
Thanks for the careful write-up, JohnnyG -- but did the Titans really play a THAT much (much) better of a game? I was (ahem) a little older than you at the time, and I remember the game differently. Certainly the numbers don't lie: Notwithstanding the Offside calls, the Bills D completely stifled Tennessee's prolific O that day, holding them to <200 total yards while toying with McNair and limiting star Eddie George to a pedestrian 3.5 yards/carry. Those stats alone negate the "much" better game argument, IMO. But I agree about Rob Johnson; my god, he was terrible -- and terrified. Tennessee had a great pass rush, and Johnson acted like a frozen deer in the headlights. What an amazingly stupid decision to start Johnson over Flutie under those conditions; for sure Flutie would have taken better advantage of Tenn's overly aggressive edge rushers, with his ability to make plays on the run. Also the Bills criminally underused Antowain Smith, who I always thought was underrated. Smith only had 14 carries in that game (at almost 6 yards a pop!), but ripped off some big runs, and got stronger as the game wore on. But in the end the only difference that mattered was that %$#@ forward lateral. Whatever one thinks of that play, the simple truth is this -- if the Bills had been at home, they would have gotten that call!
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6 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:
Well done. Most of the kids on this board have no recollection of how good that team was. I have no doubt Bills win SB with a healthy Ferguson in part to the fact the Raiders and Eagles were two of the weaker SB participants of all time. Bills D would have handled Raiders offense in AFC championship with ease as well as the Eagles offense in the SB.
Hell yeah, Ethan ...The Bills had already dominated Oakland in the '80 regular season, holding them to zero points on offense, IIRC. In that game, Oakland also had no answer for Joe Cribbs, one of the best rookie backs I've ever seen before or since. Throw in WRs Frank Lewis and Jerry Butler and that tough offensive line, and we had a great O to match that stifling D. Good lord ... almost 40 years ago now -- where'd the time go? Now we look forward.
For you youngins', I found a Youtube link to that 1980 Bills-Oakland game. Enjoy!
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6 hours ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:
Who is Ben Williams?
Oh no!! Ben Williams was a key DE in Chuck Knox's innovative 3-4 defensive scheme in the early 80s. Most folks remember the "Bermuda Triangle" from that time, with Fred Smerlas at nose tackle and Jim Haslett & (highly underrated) Shane Nelson at ILB, but Williams and Sherm White were the standout DE bookends to the triangle. Both DEs were tough against the run, great pass rushers and super steady/durable. Adding clever vet Butch Robertson and vicious hitter Lucius Sanford at OLB, and that front seven was just lethal ... I still think Bills would have won the 1980 Super Bowl if Fergy hadn't sprained his ankle.
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1 hour ago, dma0034 said:
Belichick definitely wouldn't have seen that on reviewing the film. Just sucks to know the Bills had them... still don't know why John Brown didn't reach for goal on the 2nd down pass
Hey dma, your comment reminds me to ask you guys something. On that goal line play with John Brown, in real time I could have sworn Brown was down at the 1 or so. He must have been that close, because I also thought he could have reached for the endzone. But then the ball ended up set back to the 2-1/2, for sure at least on the 4th down play. What the happened to the ball placement after Brown's catch? Did his knee touch down further back? Or did the Bills lose yardage on 3rd down? I can't find a replay of that (ill-fated) series. Or maybe I was so desperate for a TD that Brown just seemed closer ...
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4 minutes ago, 50yrpatsfan said:
it's this video, about 3 seconds in. Tell me how Allen isn't completely responsible for this collision.
Dude, you are cherry picking the ONE camera angle that is parallel to Jones' trajectory, making it impossible to judge his velocity. Again, simple physics. All other camera angles show Jones in motion, launching himself. But I am wasting my time with you. Go back to your "50 years" of Pats fandom, LOL.
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Just now, 50yrpatsfan said:
watch the video at the point of contact. It's the crown of Allen's helmet striking the side of Jones'. Clear as day.
Total fantasy. There is a still picture showing Allen's image clear (i.e., stationary) just at the point of contact, with Jones' blurred imaged entering from the side. This is simple physics, dude. Jones' image is blurred because he is in motion, launching himself into the side of Allen's helmet. Jones then stood over an injured player celebrating like a moron while other players are frantically waving for a trainer; that alone should have merited an ejection. But like I said, let's hear your opinion when this happens to #12 ... It's coming.
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16 minutes ago, 50yrpatsfan said:
watch the video again and you'll see that the other tackler hadn't yet started pulling him down, Allen was still in control of his own momentum and turned slightly left to take on Jones
Jones launched himself at Allen's head, period; the rest is your dithering fantasy. Jones then stood there pounding his chest and celebrating over an injured player; f'ing revolting.
I've lived in Boston for 34 years, and I know the timbre of Pats fans very well. Had Brady received the same hit with no ejection, you'd be absolutely losing your s*** right now ... But here's a problem you should consider: if the players feels that the refs and league will not protect their QB, then this may lead to retaliation against the other team's QB, as in baseball beanings. And frankly it might be hard to discourage in the case of Bills-Pats, because the Pats have gotten away with some really dirty play against the Bills in recent years (a *one-game* suspension for Gronk's elbow drop on Tre White's neck? Seriously??). Do you want a similar dirty hit, potentially career-ending, against your 42-year old QB? I'm not condoning it, but it is going to happen. So stop excusing dirty play; it's going to end badly.
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3 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:
this would make sense, if the Pats** were also not a perpetual cheating and dirty team.
Refs are also, or should be, taught to avoid this type of perceptual bias. They are professional refs, not "common people" making on the fly decisions.
Ryan, I completely agree about Pats' dirty play (think Gronk on Tre, Wilfork on Losman, etc.). But it's chicken and egg: the Pats may play dirty precisely because they've learned there are few consequences from the referees. The disgusting part is that there are also few consequences from the league, which has time to carefully review plays and avoid potential bias. That is the business side of things, which I am definitely not qualified to address! But I would argue that referees' perceptual biases are super hard to overcome, because that bias is essentially built into our brains.
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34 minutes ago, Fixxxer said:
Did you guys notice the holding penalty on Dawkins? Proposterous
Wow, Fixxxer, you are dead on. I was also wondering about that holding call (and of course freaking CBS didn't show a replay). But your comment reminded me to watch the o-line carefully on that play, keying on Dawkins (the call was against Dawkins, correct?). It was absolute textbook pass blocking -- hands in tight -- and DE just falls on his face. In what parallel universe could that be construed as holding?? "Preposterous" indeed ... The call was especially galling given how many times Hughes was obviously held yesterday.
And now for something a little wonkish ... Look, I think the refs try to do their job in a chaotic environment, and I don't believe in conspiracies, etc. But the referees' decisions all come down to perceptual psychology -- how one interprets what ones sees (it's my line of work -- don't ask!). A school of thought in perceptual psychophysics derives from Bayesian statistics, which holds that our percepts -- for example, a referee's decision about what he just saw (the "posterior probability") -- is a combination of what we actually saw (the visual evidence) combined with our prior expectation ("prior distribution"). Prior expectation is essentially bias -- not in an intentional, conspiratorial sense, but in the implicit perceptual sense. The "prior" in this case is that the refs implicitly expect the "well-coached" teams, like NE, to not commit penalties, while "undisciplined" teams, like the Bills, to commit penalties. Thus a clean pass block is perceived as holding because the edge-rusher fell; a young QB can take a vicious hit to the head without the offender being ejected; an experienced future HOF QB can get away with obvious grounding; or a call for defensive holding can actually be *reversed* (the latter is a perfect example of perceptual bias: there is no way in hell Gilmore would have escaped that same call when he was a Bill). Likewise, I remember the Bills getting away with a lot of calls back in the early 90s when they were considered to be a "disciplined" team. By definition, perceptual bias is unfair, but I'm not sure what one can do about it in refereeing. Maybe we'll replace refs with unbiased machine-vision-based systems in the future!
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Mosley is a very good linebacker, but let's not overdo it. First, Mosley WAS on the field for Singletary's first long run, during which he took an initial bad angle, was bullied by a pulling Mitch Morse and got away with a late hit out of bounds (I don't imagine Jerry Hughes would have dodged that!). Also, Mosley had his fair share of fortuitous bounces during the game. His pick-6 was a physics-defying gift -- and on the play he deflected the ball away from John Brown in the end zone, the ball somewhat miraculously hit his outstretched left hand (he never looked back on that play). So sure, Mosley played well, but it's a game of inches. Tre Edmunds had at least as good a game, but the talking heads ignore anybody whose name doesn't appear on the score sheet ...
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1984 Cowboys vs Bills
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted · Edited by Stranded in Boston
Wow, Donald Wilson ... I almost forgot about that guy. He may have been the hardest-hitting defender I've ever seen on the Bills (with Lucius Sanford a close second -- mind you, I wasn't quite old enough to see Mike Stratton play in his prime). Didn't Wilson break his face-mask on a hit in '84 or '85? I dimly recall that he and his receiver victim were both knocked out cold on that play (yeah -- not so cool anymore).
ah, and a Rod Kush sighting. Another big hitter.