TXBILLSFAN
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Posts posted by TXBILLSFAN
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Players fight, this is football
I don't see why it matters...........
Football is controlled aggression and discipline, not fighting.
As for why it matters, from a pure football perspective, the NFL has a huge domestic violence issue they are wrestling with. If any of these players (or others that are on their way), cross the domestic violence line, the penalties are now quite severe.
I'm not saying anything that happened the other night at Encore will create a football issue (suspensions), but it's a warning sign that these players, this coach and our FO should take very seriously.
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Imagine that scene if Richie Incognito was involved or Karlos Williams and Ronald Darby, good to see Rex recruiting La'El Collins, that would be the final piece to the puzzle.
Rex wants a bully
Be careful what you ask for
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You are in favor of the philosophy of drafting a QB every year, but then state teams need to have patience and " ... I think a lot more would succeed if they are brought along slowly."
Pick one, because drafting a QB every year does not imply patience. Its the opposite, especially with no minor league system in place.
I've said every OTHER year.
If teams effectively develop, two years is enough time to know whether the guy projects as a franchise QB or not.
That's not inconsistent with drafting every other year.
For instance, if I were developing EJ, I would have definitely played him those last 2 games to see where he was in his development with real game action.
Petty was throwing accurate deep laser passes vs. UB a couple times. He looked awesome. Oh except for the part that his receivers were wide open. Still, I'm not sure EJ would hit deep passes to wide open guys right in stride.
According to many on this board, Bills receivers were wide open often last year as well.
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i think Gailey could integrate some Baylor concepts and spread for him
The key for a prospect like him and Hundley, Grayson and the others as well as Manuel is patience -- unfortunately, most NFL teams don't have that and I think in the end it limits the ability of these QB's from reaching their true ceiling.
I'm not saying they all would be Aaron Rodgers, but I think a lot more would succeed if they are brought along slowly.
Petty's the more accurate passer? Completion percentage coming out of college...
Bryce Petty - 62.7%
EJ Manuel - 66.9%
Petty is a more accurate thrower than EJ.
The knock on EJ coming out of college was his ability to see entire field, multiple reads (slow eyes), accuracy and lack of instincts.
Neither guy (out of college) had 1st round talent, we could debate forever whether EJ was or wasn't better prospect, the bottom line, he hasn't shown he can overcome the weaknesses that existed while he was in college.
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i haven't heard they were happy with him as the starter. They picked up his option because it made sense financially but I thought things were very much in flux there.
I wouldnt have had an issue with drafting Petty if the value was there but we would have had to trade up to the top of the 4th or use our 3rd. I personally didn't think he was a good enough prospect. Kind of reminds me of Geno smith. Nice deep ball but poor accuracy underneath and intermediate. Chan will be developing him so should be interesting!
Besides being in NY (which is a big negative for any QB), Petty has a decent situation. He can learn from Fitz and Gailey and sit.
Not sure he has the right mental makeup to flourish in NYC, takes a unique person (like Eli, and even he takes shots despite winning 2 SB's).
Hundley and Grayson are in the best situations to develop.
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@buffalobills: GM Doug Whaley tells @nflnetwork why the Bills didn't draft a QB: http://t.co/tgLgM1r7T9http://t.co/A6XtfFPcx7
how would drafting a qb in the mid rounds indicate they are moving on from RG3?
I didn't mean to imply that.
I meant to imply that they are happy with RG3 as their starter, have McCoy and Cousins as backups, so they must believe they are set at that position.
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i will assume the teams know more about him than you or I do....So then why didn't qb needy teams like the Texans, Browns, Redskins take him in the 3rd if he has the potential to be a franchise qb? I'm just asking... If it's worth a 4th then it's worth a 3rd if he has that potential.
Like I said, he's NOT NFL ready. He didn't play in an NFL style offense, EVER. So, you have to project and make some guesses. So, in the 3rd, I thought teams would take a shot. They didn't, why, I guess it's because they thought the risk/reward wasn't good enough.
I believe teams, like the Bills that do not have a franchise QB, should be taking one every other year. Legit prospects, not Tuel or Levi Brown. Guys they can develop for a couple of seasons and assess. The Bills did that two years ago with EJ and should have done it again this draft.
The Texans and Browns just drafted QB's last year, so, they need to give it another year.
As for Skins, I think they aren't ready to give up on RG3.
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Name one QB like him that FELL in the draft that was ever any good. From your perceived 2nd to the 4th. Not a few picks in a round but a couple rounds. Guys like Brady didn't fall, except falling through the cracks, they were not considered top prospects. QBs that fall in the draft, like Matt Barkley, and Rob Johnson, etc, rated high but not drafted high, always suck. They fall for a reason, because scouts and GMs always push these QB guys higher than their value, not lower.
I think you are trying to confuse the argument. I wouldn't even know how to tell if a QB "fell" in a draft this year or in any year, how do you measure that when opinions on players vary so widely ?
I think he was a solid pick in 3rd round and a very good pick in the 4th. He has flaws, but, in the 4th, it was worth the risk.
I'm not trying to argue that Petty is the next great QB, I'm trying to argue that he has a reasonable probability of being a very good NFL QB. He certainly has more talent than the 3 guys on our roster.
I'm also trying to correct misinformation about his injuries and beg the Bills to stop ignoring the QB position in draft after draft.
Petty needs time to develop. He needs to learn pro style offenses and how to operate under center. His measurables are solid and he is definitely worth the risk of a 4th round pick.
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Not to mention a busted up back, knee injury...and more than one pretty nasty concussion.
LOL, Bufftex, you are showing your ignorance because you don't even know what your talking about
Petty's only concussion was mild. He was practicing after clearing every concussion protocol within 2 days, never lost consciousness and was symptom free immediately after game. As for his back injury, it's 100% healed and is not a lingering issue, essentially a cracked bone. He actually played with the crack in the game he got it and could have played the following week but did the week after that. As for the knee, it was a mild sprain.
Man, the misinformation of this board is comical.
Isn't Young the perfect example of why we shouldn't give up on EJ yet? He was a disaster in TB.
If Petty was as good as EJ, why did he go 3 rounds later?
I had Petty as a late 2nd, early 3rd because he played QB. In 4th he was a steal.
As for Manuel, he shouldn't have been drafted until round 3.
I'd say they were / are comparable prospects coming out of college. I like Petty better because he is the more accurate passer.
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You are pining away for a developmental QB after moving on from the current Bills developmental QB after him only playing in 14 games?
For the record, Bryce Petty is a much more developmental QB than EJ Manuel. Petty didn't huddle, played in a super simple "one read" passing offense, was never asked to throw into tight coverages and looked foolish when pressured by college players. Throwing a prettier spiral pass than Manuel doesn't mean he's a better prospect. The Jets screwed themselves because they are locked into Petty now.
The Bills have set themselves up to be free from any QB commitments should Manuel fail, because there are no expectations from a drafted QB who would be the next guy in line. That means the Bills will probably be at the top of the NFL destinations for the top free agent QBs or even a trade for Brees if Grayson looks good to go for the Saints in 2016. If Manuel fails I think a big name QB comes here one way or the other for the 2016 season. There are so many "good, but old" QBs that some team will want to start over with a 1st round drafted QB next year and deal their star to the star-studded Bills. The NFL will want this to happen to, you watch.
Still sickened?
Petty has EVERY quality EJ has and is more accurate.
He is a great kid, tough, mobile, arm strength, great work ethic.
Within the offenses he played in during high school and at Baylor, he didn't have to read defenses, take snaps under center and/or deal with many throws while under pressure.
So, the knock, is whether he can handle the pro game from two perspectives -- reading defenses and operating under center.
To me, that's worth a 4th round pick.
It's not as if he has played and failed in a pro-style offense.
He'll need time, one, maybe two years, but for a 4th ?
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The QB position is by far the most important position in team sports. Couple that with the fact that there are only 16ish at any given time that can play it at an elite level, makes finding one difficult but essential.
I don't think it's too much to ask for the Bills to have a concerted strategy to acquire one.
What I've seen in the past decade+ is anything but a prioritization and nothing that resembles an effective strategy.
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From where we were drafting no qb available in this draft would not have been a factor for us this year or next. Why reach for a qb that won't be a factor for the next couple of years when next year you will be in a better position with a first round pick to select a better qb prospect.
I understand your frustration with the lack of initiative over the past number of years to meaningfully address the qb position. The Levy two years, the Brandon one year and the Nix three years on top of the Whaley short stint gave scant attention to the position. I'm aware that Nix/Whaley drafted EJ in the first round. But in my view they over-reached (maybe out of desperation) in drafting a third round prospect in the first round.
One of the reasons for the expression of so much frustration over the qb issue is that most people who follow the team recognize that this franchise is assembling a strong enough roster to be a contending team. On the other hand most people recognize that our current stable of qbs undercuts the overall strength of the roster. That's why the level of frustration is high for so many people.
Based on past history the worst thing that Whaley can do is make decisiions out of desperation. If the opportunityh isn't there to accomplish what you want to do then bide you team and act when you are in a better position to do so. That is a sign of organizational maturity. And that isn't a bad organizational attribute to have.
Why would they have taken a QB in the 1st or 2nd last year when they just took one in the 1st the year before though? I get the frustration believe me... but I guess I have a hard time looking too far back to criticize the current. You can drive yourself nuts that way. They just took a guy, you need to develop him. You are what you are by year 3. If he doesn't step into the desired role this year then you take another one as high as possible next year. That's just my opinion. Unless there was someone worthy other there this year you can't pass up, but there wasn't. Bridgewater and Carr aren't any better than Manuel are they? Looked decent at times but overall inconsistent as you would expect. I mean, they looked better than Manziel and Bortles.
You both make rational arguments, but, too often, as fans we tend to rationalize our team's actions.
The QB position is too important to ignore the draft as a source for the next franchise guy.
As for EJ, yeah he should be developed and given a chance, then why didn't he play the last 2 games last year when the Bills were eliminated from the playoffs ?
I wanted the Bills to trade back into the 4th round and take Petty or Hundley.
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They signed two QBs didn't they? I assume they felt they were better short term prospects that the play dough available in the draft. I mean I'm not even a Bills fan and I would have been surprised if they took any of these guys. Didn't they also try to trade for Bradford? I don't think your QB situation is as dire as you do. Just go out and win games. They aren't playing with a rookie out there or anything.
Believe me, it's DIRE.
That's the excuse many Bills fans use EVERY YEAR the Bills don't select a QB, "oh, but we signed XXX" or "there wasn't a QB worthy of a 1st round or 2nd round or 3rd round pick"
How about this statistic, in the last 8 drafts, the Bills have selected 2 QB's in the entire draft, a 1st round pick on EJ and a 7th round pick on Levi Brown. 8 years, 2 QB's.
In that same timeframe, the Bills passed on the following QB's in the draft (Ru Wilson, Bridgewater, Da Carr, Foles, Dalton, Kaepernick, Flacco)
Not to mention NOT trading UP to take some of the other QB's that weren't available at their selection. But, they did trade up for a WR!!
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Did you read anything other than the title? Just wondering. He wasn't saying they should have traded into the 1st round. Or reach in the 2nd.
I heard what he said on draft day. The point he was making was that the Bills are weak at the QB position and haven't addressed it in the offseason.
The point I'm making, is why would you expect anything but weakness at a position that has essentially been ignored over the past 11 years.
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What does that have to do with what Polian said? BTW the Browns have done the opposite. Same result.
Read the title of thread "Polian critical of Bills not drafting a QB"
As for Cleveland, eventually it does work, just ask Seattle, San Francisco and maybe Minnesota and Oakland. You will never get a franchise QB if you don't try.
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Over the past 11 drafts, the Bills have only used ONE 1st or 2nd round pick on a QB. Let that sink in.
Only once in the past 11 years, have the Bills used one of their 1st or 2nd round picks to "take a shot" on a QB !!
Any of you who want to defend that fact with the backdrop of the crap we've had playing QB over that same time period, have at it.
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The two obvious options close to Sammy were Evans and Bekham Jr. (but, if it was up to me, I would have grabbed Mosley and waited until 2nd or 3rd round for the WR)
Watkins was still clearly better. Evans had the huge body. He was the only one close. Why would you draft another high round LB? Would you have lamb basted the fact we drafted Mosley if Preston Brown was nasty on some other team? You are campaigning to ignore the QB position as well. A LB in the first over Bridgewater and Carr?
Big difference between using a 1st rd pick on OL, LB or WR and using 2 1st Rd picks, that's the issue. You limit your ability this year to use that asset to acquire a QB. As for Bills making QB a priority, including this year's draft, we would have selected ONE QB in the 1st or 2nd round in the past 11 drafts !!! ONE. That is ignoring the most important position. Don't give me signing 10 QB's; Kolb ? Orton ? Fitz ? come on, this is the most important position in team sports and we used ONE 1st or 2nd round pick on it over the past 11 drafts !!! that's insane.
And you wanted to continue the status quo by drafting Mosley. You're saying its 2 vs 1, but in reality, you didn't want a QB with the 2014 pick anyway. Don't you see your own contradiction?
I'd take Bradford in a nano-second, I would have traded this year's 1st (19th), next year's 1st and a young player to get him. He is legit. His only issue is staying healthy. I'm not as high on Foles, but both are better prospects than any QB we've had on our roster in the past decade.
Okay. Would the Rams have accepted that trade? Who knows.
If Cassell plays like a Top 16 QB, we will make playoffs and be competitive once we are in them. Bradford is much better QB than Cassell, it's not even close.
We shall see.
I was okay not drafting a QB in 2014 because we had just drafted one in 2013, and I think we needed to see more of EJ before casting him aside (another reason I hated the signing of a proven mediocre QB in Orton).
I didn't want to trade the 2015 1st because it essentially limits our ability to go after a QB this year because we lack the ammunition to make a trade up.
Make no mistake, I'm a huge proponent of drafting a QB EVERY OTHER YEAR until we find one with our 1st or 2nd round pick --- not ONCE EVERY DECADE !!
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Just as long as it doesnt ruin your Friday night......
Too bad Bradford cant stay healthy...which is just as big a part of the equation......
I agreed with the trade...but also agree what regardless we are where we are....and people crying in the milk about Whaley being aggressive are going to need to move on.
This thread is about revisiting the trade, so, while I agree that we all need to move on, this thread isn't the place for that.
As for Whaley being aggressive, I like it, I just wish he would be that aggressive with the QB position. I would have loved for him to go after Bradford, Foles or Cutler. I know all 3 are flawed, but all 3 are better than anything we have.
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I don't think there was a huge gap between Sammy and other highly rated WR's (Evans, Beckham Jr, Benjamin etc.) and because, without a proven QB we are wasting his talents, i.e. putting the cart before the horse.
Well, I'm going to go with the consensus of the scouting community over you. Watkins was head and shoulders over all of them. Also, Benjamin? Are you just looking at the stat line to see how good they are? Benjamin was alright, but he is very raw, runs poor routes etc. Wasting his talents? What? Only draft WR's when you have QB's? Would we be wasting the talent of a Pro-Bowl O-lineman because our QB sucked? Obviously not, for some arbitrary reason, as evidenced by....
The two obvious options close to Sammy were Evans and Bekham Jr. (but, if it was up to me, I would have grabbed Mosley and waited until 2nd or 3rd round for the WR)
I'd rather have invested in defense (Mosley) or even OL (one of the OT's).
You'd rather have spent another precious resource on the 3rd ranked defense than the 20+ ranked O? Wha? And which OT, be specific please. You can't say a draft choice sucks without giving specifics.
I wanted Mosley, going into draft we were thin at LB, Bradham hadn't proven himself, Brown wasn't on roster. So, I thought Mosley should have been the pick. As for OL, I was okay with any of the top 4 (Matthews, Robinson, Lewan and Martin).
I think the Bills (including Whaley), haven't spent enough time finding a true proven NFL QB. To me, that's the first, second, third and fourth priorities.
So, besides signing ~10 QB's since 2013, they haven't spent enough time? How do you figure? Not one sentence ago you said you'd rather have had them take a linebacker with our first round pick, but we haven't spent enough time finding QB's? What?
Big difference between using a 1st rd pick on OL, LB or WR and using 2 1st Rd picks, that's the issue. You limit your ability this year to use that asset to acquire a QB. As for Bills making QB a priority, including this year's draft, we would have selected ONE QB in the 1st or 2nd round in the past 11 drafts !!! ONE. That is ignoring the most important position. Don't give me signing 10 QB's; Kolb ? Orton ? Fitz ? come on, this is the most important position in team sports and we used ONE 1st or 2nd round pick on it over the past 11 drafts !!! that's insane.
This off-season, they've essentially said, we don't have a QB, we won't be able to get a QB, so we are going to build up everything besides QB (i.e. Hughes, McCoy, Harvin, Clay etc.) -- that to me is Plan B. Plan A would have been to sacrifice everything we could to get Bradford or even Foles.
Why Bradford or Foles? Huge question marks with both. Sacrifice everything? I suppose it could have worked, but if Foles sucks in STL and Bradford sucks in PHI/CLE, I expect you to own that.
I'd take Bradford in a nano-second, I would have traded this year's 1st (19th), next year's 1st and a young player to get him. He is legit. His only issue is staying healthy. I'm not as high on Foles, but both are better prospects than any QB we've had on our roster in the past decade.
I believe you can't win a SuperBowl without a decent (Top 16) QB. I think the Bills are a marginal playoff team (right now), but have no shot at a SuperBowl.
Cassell has played like a top 16 QB before. Maybe he can do it again. If not, Bradford in the top 16? I think he's # 2 in fewest games played since 2010. If we make the playoffs, we have a shot at the Superbowl. And trading a Dareus + picks for Bradford would've been ludicrous.
If Cassell plays like a Top 16 QB, we will make playoffs and be competitive once we are in them. Bradford is much better QB than Cassell, it's not even close.
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K-9 isn't talking about the NFL pundits.
If you agree that Sammy was #1, how could you hate the trade? We shouldn't have gotten the best WR in the draft because why? Who at #19 is worth it?
I hate the trade because I don't think there was a huge gap between Sammy and other highly rated WR's (Evans, Beckham Jr, Benjamin etc.) and because, without a proven QB we are wasting his talents, i.e. putting the cart before the horse.
I'd rather have invested in defense (Mosley) or even OL (one of the OT's).
I think the Bills (including Whaley), haven't spent enough time finding a true proven NFL QB. To me, that's the first, second, third and fourth priorities.
This off-season, they've essentially said, we don't have a QB, we won't be able to get a QB, so we are going to build up everything besides QB (i.e. Hughes, McCoy, Harvin, Clay etc.) -- that to me is Plan B. Plan A would have been to sacrifice everything we could to get Bradford or even Foles.
I believe you can't win a SuperBowl without a decent (Top 16) QB. I think the Bills are a marginal playoff team (right now), but have no shot at a SuperBowl.
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It makes sense to me. At the time, I was the opposite. I thought that last year's draft was really deep and this one was not. In addition, I thought that the Bills would be decent (as it turns out they were and it was pick 19). In hindsight, I would have rather passed on CK and had pick 19 this year. With that being said, I am still fine with it.
And I'm sure Cleveland thought this year's pick was going to be higher, too.
I didn't have much perspective last year on this year's draft, I think it does make the trade more palatable knowing that this year's 1st round looks mediocre and the #19 pick doesn't look like it'll be a game changer.
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No, I didn't mean to say that at all.
I don't like to make arguments in retrospect, especially given the appreciation I have for the scouting process and all that it entails. And even though I am now indeed regurgitating old arguments, the simple fact is that as good as the WR class was, Sammy Watkins was head and shoulders above anyone else and by a pretty substantial margin, especially from an understanding of the game perspective. Nobody else was considered nearly the complete package coming out as Watkins and that consensus remains even after their rookie seasons.
GO BILLS!!!
If that wasn't your point then what did you mean that "#1 and #2 conflict with each other ?"
I'll concede that Sammy was the clear #1 WR heading into the draft, however, I won't conceded the "head and shoulders" margin as it pertains to NFL analysts/pundits, I will agree that the Bills FO believed that, which is why they made trade.
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Just out of curiosity if they used last year's 2nd (Kouandjio) instead of their 1st this year would you feel differently?
At the time of last year's draft, YES.
My reaction at the time of last year's draft was "oh $hit, we have no proven QB, and won't have a shot at a good one in next year's draft if EJ fails".
I get that the two picks probably have equal value (according to trade value chart), especially since this year's pick is #19. So, my reaction is somewhat illogical.
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I think problem #2 conflicts with problem #1. Doesn't matter how deep the WR class was if your contention is that we have nobody to get him the ball, anyway. Based on that and given their respective rankings going into the draft, I could say the Odell Beckham Jr. would not have had as good a rookie year as Watkins if he played for us.
Anyway, I have no desire to just keep regurgitating the same tired arguments about Watkins. There is no new ground to till here.
GO BILLS!!!
I think what you meant to say is that problem #2 remains even if problem #1 goes away. Which is true. However, if EJ turned out to be a very good QB and got Sammy the ball and Sammy had great season, I would argue that even though it was a DEEP WR class, most of us who were against the trade would admit the trade worked, even if it meant giving up an extra #1.
Whaley admits what we've suspected - Bills in QB Purgatory
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
The QB situation on this team is depressing. One of the reasons this upcoming season is failing to bring out my usual pre-season optimism.
There is no easy solution to fix which is why the Bills simply "punted" on trying to do anything of substance this off-season, and chose, instead to focus on rest of the roster and hope the QB situation improves on it's own.
While hope is not a strategy (although it does seem to work in presidential politics and with most Bills fans), it is all we got. Let's "hope" EJ takes the proverbial next step. Let's "hope" Cassel somehow finds his 2008 magic. Let's "hope" Tyrod is that once in a generation QB that finds his game after looking so pedestrian for 5 years.
The blame for the situation has many fathers including several current members of the Bills front office.
But what to do going forward is the question ? The NFL is a league that has proven over the past decade that you CAN'T WIN a SUPERBOWL without a legitimate top 16 QB. So, if the goal is the SuperBowl, the Bills should do everything to get one.
What does that mean ?
In my mind, that means every asset is on the table. EVERY ASSET.
That means you draft guys like Bryce Petty, even though he is a project. That means you take a Carr or Bridgewater the year after you draft EJ. That means you offer your 1st and one of your defensive studs to go after Bradford or Foles.
If you can't win a Super Bowl without a Top 16 QB, you make it the singular biggest priority in your organization, bar none.
Building "the rest of the roster" becomes easy after that.