thewildrabbit
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Posts posted by thewildrabbit
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I'm just happy St Doug decided to walk away or we would be forced to watch another year of Hackett calling plays.
Its funny all the head coaching jobs are gone, and he is left hold his Marrone.
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Jeez, just looking at how Geno Smith, and Mike Vick performed this past season against Buffalo I'm not so sure this is a good hire.
Two Games 5 INT's. When you listened to Fitz after Gailey hired Lee, he stated that it was really the first time in his entire career that anyone had worked with him on his mechanics. Fitz did look like he regressed under Lee. But then it has to be exceedingly difficult to try and get a 10 year vet to change anything he should be doing without thinking about it. Look at Tim Tebow, and both Mike McCoy, Adam Gase couldn't help him with his mechanics.
In regards to EJ, I think EJ has some slight footwork, mechanic issues. I think his problems stem more from getting past the first, and second reads.Getting fast reads against disguised coverage's. A better OC, and line should help quite a bit too, as I don't see Greg Roman calling 40+ pass plays a game, and he should have a strong run game to support him.
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Looks like it could really be a funny scenario if Hackett gets the OC job over Marrone. Although I have no idea why they are even interviewing him for the job.
I'm just happy both are gone from the Buffalo Bills.
In other news Kubiak is getting his interview with Denver Sunday, and is a shoe in to land the job. So Marrone cancelled his interview with Denver.
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Man, this new O line coach is going to have his work cut out for him with the current players on the roster. Looks like a good hire, as the guy does have a solid history as an O line coach. Time will tell.
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It's not that uncommon of a structure. KTD, listed the 10 teams or whatever with similar structures a week or so ago.
In your example the answer is Whaley. He builds the roster. The QB is obviously an extreme example because if they weren't in agreement in the guy or direction Rex wouldn't have been hired. Whoever the target(s) are it has already been discussed and agreed to. There aren't nearly as many "tiebreakers" as people think. The Bills have always been very collaborative when it comes to decision making. The decision is agreed to well before the transaction takes place. That was the weird thing about Marrone is that he wasn't always on the same page.
I'd like to see those ten teams, and I gotta wonder if any have a winning record or are drowning in dysfunction? Some of the teams mentioned by ESPN Miami, Jets, Falcons now have a similar structure like Buffalo now has in place. The teams I see always in the playoffs every year have a defined structure, and the brand new owner doesn't have the final say in football decisions.
So, it wasn't really a collaborative effort by the HC, GM, finance / marketing guy if the HC didn't always agree?
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By whom, Shefter? You are the only one on the planet giving that blurb any credence at all. NOBODY in the building, including John Wawrow and other media representatives, recalls seeing Marrone storm out of the war room when Watkins was selected. NOBODY. Shefter is flat out making crap up to support his buddy.
GO BILLS!!!
This account per ESPN Adam Schefter was carried by just about every sports site on the planet, and its per sources that were in the Bills draft room at the time. So, I'm not the only one giving credence to this report. I could link them for you if you like. I didn't as there are 30+.
If other media representatives were in the building than why didn't they refute the story by Schefter? If the account per Schefter was wrong then why wouldn't the Buffalo Bills front office refute or discredit the story in any way shape or form. Pretty sure Schefter has a solid reputation as an NFL news insider to even consider "making crap up" to support anyone. So, if anyone is making up crap...
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It would be pretty funny if he is hired by the Broncos, and brings Hackett with him. I'd give them 3 games before they both get fired.
OTOH, if he hires Schwartz as DC, and a solid OC like Trestman he could do well.
In terms of Gary Kubiak I can see why the man might not want the pressure of the entire team again because of that mini stroke / panic attack he suffered at Houston. He did so very well this season with the Ravens.
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I dunno, perhaps I did a poor job of writing this post because I'm getting so much feedback in which people are overlooking what I've already talked about, and a lot are reading it and getting it all wrong.
Clearly nothing is going to change the current structure of the org in the near future. I was just hoping they would hire a senior adviser or team president to help with those offensive acquisitions, and someone who could make changes in the scouting dept as needed.
The Pegula's were going to hire Polian, and didn't get the chance. I for one would still like to see someone with more then two years experience at the top of the football operations chart.
Does this help?
It looks like the way things have played out the Bills have their organizational structure in place. Brandon runs business operations, Whaley talent evaluation and Ryan runs the players. Ryan tells Whaley where he needs help and Whaley finds the talent.
However in summary as you've done a great job in pointing out it does look unbalanced toward the defensive side of the ball. Whaley has done pretty well with his defensive additions, less than stellar on the other side. My guess is that for this season at least we are going to run with the structure in place and hope that Roman has some influence on the talent evaluation on the offensive additions.
Thank you on that.
With the addition of a senior adviser or team president I'd tend to think we could rely on something more substantial then just "hope".
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Marrone said he wanted huge offensive linemen when he first got the job. That's what Whaley went out and got. That's why Williams was signed. That's why Marrone didn't play Urbik. That's why he put a 6'8 Pears at OG. I assume management got pissed when the OL with huge guys was playing terrible and Marrone was not paying Urbik instead of Pears or Richardson because he was better than them.
Got a link to that KtD? Because if my memory serves it was Buddy Nix who was all about the huge players.
We needed a center. We’ve got Ccolin Brown
playing there, we’d like not to wear him out and we wanted to get another center. This old boy is as big as a house, too. He plays center and guard. He’s 6’6 ¼” and 330 or whatever and really a better player than people think. He’s a smart guy. He should give us some help.EDIT: Colin Brown is the name missing for whatever reason
That was Nix commenting on how he thought Colin Brown was a better player then anybody thinks...
and probably why the team didn't renew his contract this year.The reason I don't think it was all Marrone was because he was very good as a O line coach in the NFL, and built a very solid line in his time. His ex players rave about how good he was at developing them, and HoF RB Curtis Martin loved him. Time is gonna tell on this one.
I was also pointing out that there was definite past friction between the GM & HC to the point of yelling at each other (MFing each other) in the open, and in earshot of a lot of people.Now what exactly were they having a shouting match over? Its also mentioned in the article. "The front office "bristled" how players were being used, Cujo, WR Robert Woods being benched, and that they were at odds over OG Kraig Urbik. Sounded to me like a lot had to do with the players on the line.
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I don't necessarily disagree that they need to do a better job finding talent on the offensive side. With that being said there is no confusion as to where that falls. It falls on Whaley & his staff.
Clearly nothing is going to change the current structure of the org in the near future. I was just hoping they would hire a senior adviser or team president to help with those offensive acquisitions, and someone who could make changes in the scouting dept as needed.
The Pegula's were going to hire Polian, and didn't get the chance. I for one would still like to see someone with more then two years experience at the top of the football operations chart.
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I actually think that they were pretty clear on how disputes will be settled. If it has to do with the 53 it's Whaley. If it's gameday its Rex. If it has to do with budget it's Russ. Where is the confusion?
Player talent Kirby! Defensive side fine. Offensive side poor. From EJ to trading away a #1 pick for a player other then a franchise QB. Why wasn't anyone able to recognize what a great draft 2014 was for WR's Very poor O line acquisitions for two years now.
Bill Polian mentioned he would need to change some of the scouts, and I believe this to be true considering whats happened with the offense for the past two years. I don't trust the current scouts or Whaley to find offensive free agents or offensive players in the draft.
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Ok and funny enough personnel side was correct. Additionally, you don't think St. Doug gave any opinions whatsoever on who Doug W. drafted or picked up in FA for the OL. You think Doug W. just said "I'm drafting these people, make it work."? Really?
What, Urbik is awful, and only a slight upgrade to Richardson. Like I said, i never saw Richardson pushed 5 yards into the backfield by some scrub Raider DT.
Well, it has been reported that Marrone didn't want to trade away the 2015 first round pick on a WR!
He sure didn't use the WR that Whaley traded for in Mike Williams very much now did he? He didn't use the RB in Bryce Brown that Whaley traded for very much either, now did he?
This is exactly where I think the dysfunction, and friction begins in that Whaley didn't go over the offensive changes with Marrone, or we might have seen better usage of some of those players. Plus, we might have seen some higher quality players then the ones brought in for the line.
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You keep posting the bolded and have yet to provide an article or post anywhere where it's mentioned that "Marrone wanted different players and was told what he had was good enough." Where was that ever said?
You say this (what I've bolded in red) as if it is a known fact -- which it is not. This is purely your conjecture. I don't for one moment believe Doug Whaley would have told Saint Doug -- an OFFENSIVE LINE coach -- what sort of players were "good enough" for his OL.
"they were also at odds over guard Kraig Urbik, who the personnel side believes is a quality guard (he just received a contract extension a few years back) but who Marrone has soured on
There is that, and I do believe I read somewhere else that he had asked for different upgrades. I need to find that and link it.
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Bringing in Polian to get some feedback from him is a good idea. But considering Polian as some overseeing czar is not a good idea, in my opinion. Adding another layer of authority, official or not, creates the potential for conflict.
Empowering one source of authority is the best approach to take. In that way there is no confusion at towho the football authority is in your organization. It simplifies who is responsible on football issues.
Pegula's hockey experience of bringing in Pat Fontaine as an expert voice worked when he was putting together a staff. But once the front office was in place and Murray was installed as the GM there were problems associated with the extra layer of authority (Fontaine) who then didn't have a clear mission in the room. Patty's influenced waned once the hockey staff was installed. That change in status created conflict that resulted in Patty angrily bolting (bought off) from the organization.
Pegula was very smart in expanding his horizon by talking to Polian and getting his thoughts. It worked out in Pegula's favor when Polian decided that he didn't want to get offically involved with the organization. The end result of having clear lines of authority worked out well for the owner and the organization. Very often by keeping the management structure clear and simple you know exactly who is to be held accountable when things work out well and when they don't.
"Ryan has control of who plays on Sunday and Whaley has control of who will be on the roster for Ryan to pick for the lineup, leaving plenty of area for conflict. What will happen when those conflicts arise? “That’s an interesting question. I think the way we look at it is there’s going to be disagreements, and you want that. You want internal debate, external unity. Does it go to Terry? Does it go to Kim? Does it go to Russ? Wherever it goes, as long as it’s the best decision for the Buffalo Bills,” Whaley said, via John Kryk of Sun Media.
Sounds to me like GM Doug Whaley is unsure of the entire situation, which is not good, and goes back to the same dysfunction with Marrone.
- Question, are the Pegula's qualified to run the football side of operations? Is Russ Brandon? Was Ralph Wilson ever? This is the entire reasoning behind wanting an NFL football operations president.
Its not adding another layer of authority, its adding the proper football intelligence to the top of the chain.
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If everyone recalls there was dysfunction, and friction between Marrone and Whaley, and probably a big reason as to why Marrone walked away. Not that I'm unhappy that he left, and Hackett is also gone
Please don't lay the blame of the O line all on Doug Marrone, as he wanted different players and was told what he had was good enough. The talent on the line actually downgraded from first Levitre, and then from Doug Legursky. Yeah, as hard as that is to believe the line was actually better in 2013 with Legursky.
The line wasn't that good to begin with and got worse in Whaley's first year, and became near the very worst in the league his second year."The front office has also bristled at how certain players are being used, sources said. Team executives believe tackle Cyrus Kouandjio, this year's second-round pick, warranted more of a long look this summer, were unhappy that emerging receiver Robert Woods was benched at times, and they were also at odds over guard Kraig Urbik, who the personnel side believes is a quality guard (he just received a contract extension a few years back) but who Marrone has soured on (the team explored trades for Urbik before roster cuts, league sources said)."
Really? Did anyone else watch Urbik being pushed 5 yards into the backfield by Raiders Antonio Smith to pin Spiller behind the line 5 yards? As bad as Cyril Richardson played at times I never saw him being owned that badly.
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To the OP. Without question the team will get even scarier on defense this season, and finish better then 4th IMO.
Then I'm positive that Doug Whaley will find the players to help Rex make his defense work.
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Now, Back in October we Bills fans thought we would be seeing a senior NFL adviser in the likes of Ron Wolf, Ernie Accorsi, or even Mike Holmgren.
Now none of this happened because the NY Jets hired Ron Wolf as an adviser (as Charley Casserly already hired by the Jets as senior adviser wasn't enough), and Holmgren didn't care to commit. The Bears hired Earnie Accorsi as their senior adviser.
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Now with those options off the table the new Bills owner must have reached out to Bill Polian. Then we heard that Bill Polian would be taking a job as the new football czar.
Bill Polian will be taking over as Bills team president/football czar but move may not be announced til late Jan, due to his commitments
— Jason La Canfora (@JasonLaCanfora) December 31, 2014
Terry Pegula wanted to hire Bill Polian as his czar, and then the idea for a team president of football operations went into the crap can after Marrone left. Mostly because as a parting shot St Doug told Polian that the people in the Bills FO were trashing him behind his back. (Gee, I wonder who that could have been?) The aftermath of this came out and the people in the FO shat themselves when they heard that Polian would have recommended hiring ex Charger GM AJ Smith. Which would have possibly removed Whaley entirely from the team, and moved Brandon permanently to the financial side. Then Polian mentioned he would have made changes to the scouting dept, and I can only think about how bad the offensive scouting has been the last two years.
Then we read of Terry Pegula doing all this behind Brandon's back http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/01/polian-confirms-that-bills-were-working-behind-brandons-back/
Brandon, Whaley convincing this new owner that he needs to be in command of his team just like the last owner was, and that is not the ideal situation I think most fans were looking for, as I think most wanted that football side czar- football side team president.
I know I wanted, and think most fans wanted to see a structure similar to the Ravens, Colts, et al. Like so many other successful teams in which the owner lets the football people make the decisions. Hence, now both Whaley, and Brandon stay in the loop for everything.-----------------------------------------
"As was revealed by team president Russ Brandon during Wednesday’s news conference introducing Ryan as the Bills’ new coach, the Bills will operate under mostly the same system they had with their previous coach, Doug Marrone"
"All football decisions will be made by Coach and Doug Whaley,” Brandon said.
The only change from what was in place with Marrone is that Ryan will report directly to club owners Terry and Kim Pegula, as will Whaley and Brandon."
But then i read this: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/15/doug-whaley-not-worried-about-potential-power-struggle-with-rex-ryan/
From Whaley, “That’s an interesting question. I think the way we look at it is there’s going to be disagreements, and you want that. You want internal debate, external unity. Does it go to Terry? Does it go to Kim? Does it go to Russ?
Jeez, It looks like even Whaley doesn't know...great, so now its back to...
Probably why there was so much reported friction between Marrone, and Whaley, and it looks to still be dysfunctional.
Dunno about the rest of you, but from where I sit Whaley didn't do a very good job with the offensive side of things the last two years. He is only in his third year on the job, and very inexperienced to have the entire roster on his shoulders. The Bills need that senior adviser so Whaley doesn't trade anymore first round picks away for anything other then a QB. So when the team trades for players like WR Mike Williams, RB Bryce Brown they are actually utilized by the team. That when the team trades away a decent red zone threat in Stevie Johnson the team won't be last or 31st in red zone TD's all season.
That when we see a decent LG's leave like Andy Levitre, Chad Rinehart they aren't replaced by players outright cut off the team by week six inColin Brown, David Snow! Or grade as badly as backup C/G Doug legursky. Then the next year the team goes dumpster diving for player who is a known injury risk, and grades worse then any player currently on the roster in LG Chris Williams. Drafting a OT with a #2, and a #7, and the 7th becomes the starter, albeit a very average starter who looked lost at times.
Bottom line: I'm still hoping Terry Pegula hires that football czar, football team president who will help Whaley with the offense. (The Bills need to keep Whaley as he has done a near brilliant job with the defensive acquisitions). Someone that will make improvements to the offensive of the scouting dept even if it means hiring offensive scout specialists who can find top O line players, and that elusive franchise QB.
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Funny that Whaley came into power about that same time....
Pretty prophetic of him to join the board in 2009, then
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I think this article explains to me all the love for Ryan both in Buffalo, and in NYC.
"It’s really astonishing. By the end of his run in New York, even most Yankees fans were OK seeing Joe Torre leave, and all he’d done was deliver four championships and gone 12-for-12 making the playoffs; yet there are still an awful lot of Jets fans who’d have been perfectly happy if Ryan had gotten an extension to stay here. Maybe for life."
http://nypost.com/2015/01/14/hey-buffalo-rex-will-deliver-more-laughs-than-wins/
Lets hope Whaley gives Ryan, Roman the players they needs to improve that O line. He sure didn't for Marrone, Hackett.
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Jack Del Rio will be a whole lot better then some here think he will be. The guy will build a really good defense, and a powerful ground and pound running attack.
Like lots of head coaches that fail as HC, and they fail because they cannot seem to find that franchise QB. It killed Rex Ryan too.
Imagine going 11-5 / 12-4 with Bryon Leftwich & David Garrard at QB
Del Rio has an excellent young QB In Derek Carr, and will fix the defense. He also has his old RB in MJD. I can see the Raiders improving greatly this year.
Dang stiffing Fangio, he is a brilliant DC
Yea, I thought the DC Vic would have gotten the job over D line coach Tomsula.
This should be good, as I gotta wonder how long Trent Baalke keeps his job after letting Harbaugh leave because he couldn't get along with him.
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Believe it or not Marrone was an very good O line coach with the NY Jets, and wasn't a very good OC with the Saints as HC Sean Payton called the offensive plays.
Players on those Jets teams raved about how much St Doug helped them improve, and he was still out on the practice field with his players long after the rest of the teams practice had ended.
Hall of Fame Jets / Patriots RB Curtis Martin loves Marrone, as do many other players that worked with him.
http://nypost.com/2015/01/03/curtis-martin-kevin-mawae-rave-about-jets-coaching-favorite/
I'm glad that Marrone is gone mostly because he was oblivious to how ignorant his choice for OC was in Hackett, and he spent a lot of time and energy with his buddy Crossman & special teams.
Lastly, lets not forget that there is still dysfunction between the FO and HC in many ways. Marrone didn't like trading away the 2015 first & fourth for a wide receiver when he wasn't convinced EJ was the franchise QB. Marrone wanted changes to the personnel on the O line, and was denied by the FO with them telling him the current players were fine. The trading for RB Bryce Brown, WR Mike Williams that were not very good choices. The trading away of WR Stevie Johnson who would have made that red zone offense better. Clearly there is something wrong with the offensive side of the scouting dept when they bring in O line players like Colin Brown, Doug Legursky, Chris Williams.
I think its fairly safe to say that part of the reason why Marrone walked away was he was having difficulty obtaining the players he wanted, and the friction between he and Whaley. Plus, he might not have embraced reporting to the marketing / finance guy, and the owner.
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He didn't promise a Super Bowl here.
I didn't say he did.
There is no question its easy to love the man, as he is very charismatic. Says all the right thinks. Players love the guy, and play their hearts out for him. Its why his last owner Woody Johnson loved him, and literally hated to fire him. Probably cringing that the Bills hired him. The players also loved Jauron. The fans loved Gailey. Nate Hackett loved Marrone.
All the talk in the world doesn't equate to wins.
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In case you guys missed it being Bills fans. Rex Ryan promised the NY Jets fans a super bowl. The man left the Jets with a lot of broken promises.
Saying it doesn't make it magically happen.
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If they did not notice why then did they hire Ryan and ground and pound Roman?
In case you did not notice this team had near the very worst O line in the league last year while the 49ers had darn near the best, if not the best. Hiring one OC doesn't not magically fix whats been the biggest player problem with the offense the last two years!!
Oh, in case you forgot Nathaniel Hackett tried that same ground and pound scenario in his first year as OC in 2013, and the Bills lead the league in rushing attempts, and #2 in rushing overall in the league. Yet all that running did was give them a lot of rushing yards, and 6-10 wins. Rushing for a ton of yards does nothing if you don't have the ability to move the chains, and control the line of scrimmage.
Bills Power structure
in The Stadium Wall Archives
Posted
Got a link to where Wawrow refuted the story, because I've never read about, as If I did I'd not even bring this up.