Hate to bring up the facts and spoil everyone's panic attack

[Thurman#1]

Giants won a Super Bowl with a very young offensive line.

 

The Giants o-line? Very young? Compared to who?

 

David Diehl is 28.

Seubert is 30.

Sean O'Hara is 32.

Chris Snee is 27.

McKenzie is 30.

 

Those were the starters for the Super Bowl. They were about 19 months younger on the day of the Super Bowl. I guess you have an argument with Snee. But that was a middle-aged line at the time, not young.

[Thurman#1]

Kid, its literally FACTS not what I am telling myself...you are the one with opinnion...

 

FACT: Peters signed for less money (in a heartbeat I might add too) in Philly than he was demanding in Buffalo. He didnt want to be here, showed up fat, was the worst rated LT in the game last year in terms of sacks...what more do you want?

 

 

 

I think he wanted a fact that showed that your argument was correct. But you're right, there is no fact that shows that Peters wanted out, so if I were you and had made a big deal out of FACTS, I'd post irrelevant and misleading facts too.

 

Good job.

[Thurman#1]

Thats may be true in Real Estate, but not in football. If you pay JP Losman a $100,000,000 contract he is still worth only a buck fifty...so your something is worth exactly whay you pay for it theory has NO place in football...

 

 

 

Has anybody offered Losman a $100,000,000 contract? Case closed. Why don't you buy yourself a donut and go try to sell it for $10,000, see if you get any takers. You might learn something about market value.

 

Peters got market value for a player as good as he is.

[Thurman#1]

Yes, that is how negotiations work, but he wasnt coming down in Buffalo...he wasnt playing the negotiating game, DESPITE seeing how the FO paid everyone else on the team when they just showed up and did their job and went about it professionally. He not only held out, but cut off contact, and didnt back off his demands...and all of that was completely different how he conducted himself in Philly and quickly lowered his demands to take less money.

 

As far as your question about why wasnt Bell promoted weeks ago...well, hello thats the WHOLE reason for preseason and training camp...to let players play it out and fight for starting spots...weeks ago, Bell was the inexperienced backup...then he outplayed the seasoned vet and they made a decision to promote him. He beat the odds...

 

 

I'm sorry, but you're flat out wrong here, there's no other way to put it. He had already come down from $13 mill, so when you say he wasn't coming down, you're just factually wrong.

 

Oh, that's the whole reason for preseason and training camp? Really? That's funny, then, isn't it, that the Bills announced in the first week of camp that they had named the starters the o-line this season. If Bell had outplayed Walker months ago, or even weeks ago, he would have been promoted at that time. This is terribly disturbing, because if Walker was so bad that he had to be cut, then waiting so long means that Bell couldn't clearly outplay a guy not even worth keeping as a backup right up till 6 days before the season. This is, at best, indicative of some kind of screw-up.

 

Let's hope that Bell does well, but indications are not good. It sounds like even if he succeeds, it will take a while.

[Thurman#1]

To your first point, what is "market value"? market value is what the market is willing to pay. The only team that stepped up to the plate was Philly, in the rest of the league's eyes, he wasn't worth that value, at least not the teams that had a need for a tackle. What Peters received from Philly and what the Bills were reportedly offering was not that large of a difference. The speculation that was coming out from the negotiations were that they were a long ways apart from getting a deal done. I think it is pretty evident to anyone with a rational thinking mind, that Eugene Parker/Peters were still somewhat bitter about the hold out from the year before and that they wanted out of Buffalo, unless Buffalo caved in to their ridiculous demands.

 

When they realized that no team was going to pay what they thought was their perceived "market value" they accepted Philly's offer, touted it as a success, even though it was much lower then what they were purportedly demanding and they hi tailed out of Buffalo.

 

In regards to your second point. It's funny how some people just don't seem to be able to use logic in what most likely transpired.

 

Is it possible that the Bills wanted to evaluate his performance through out training camp and preseason before they determined that Walker was their man?

 

Do you really think it was the intention of the Bills coaching staff, to purposely cut him at the end of camp, just to piss everyone off?

 

It's pretty obvious to me that they were surprised to see his lack of desire, inept performance and couple that with a hefty salary to make the decision that he wasn't worth it to keep on the team.

 

 

Geez, look at your first sentence. "Market value is what the market is willing to pay." Bingo!! Peters got market value and the way we know that is that someone paid him that. Market value isn't what everyone is willing to pay. If it were, a Mercedes would be worth $10,000, because that's what I would be willing to pay for one. When you have one individual item, you have a competitive situation. The Bills didn't think Peters was worth it TO THEM. But the Eagles did. So that's how you know what market value is. It's what someone is willing to pay. Look at JP's contract. That's his market value.

 

You say that "The speculation that was coming out from the negotiations were that they were a long ways apart from getting a deal done." And you put all that on Peters. Why? Hate, basically, I guess, because it's just as legit to put it on the Bills. The Bills offered somewhere around $9 mill. Peters wanted $11. Where is the average of these two stances? Right where the Eagles paid him. You say it is a "rational thinking mind" that blames all this on Peters, but you are kidding yourself. The mind that puts all this on Peters is a biased, hate-filled mind. The deal was right there for the taking.

 

The Eagles took it.

 

----------

 

And you say "It's pretty obvious to me that they were surprised to see his lack of desire, inept performance and couple that with a hefty salary to make the decision that he wasn't worth it to keep on the team." If lack of desire, inept performance and a hefty salary were the reasons the Walker decision was made, did the Bills just not notice this till after the last preseason game? I mean, I think those three things would all stick out pretty good.

 

If they had done this earlier, preferably much earlier, Bell would have had more reps with the first team, which would have been crucial. Not to mention more reps for Chambers.

[Thurman#1]

And you must admit, they were a very impressive lot shoulda drafted Michael Oher!!

 

 

 

Yeah. I think they thought Oher was an RT, not an LT, and that's why they didn't grab him.

[Lv-Bills]

For the record....

 

I LOVE Bell at LT.....been saying it for well over a year now

It is the timing that makes me nervous......AND the lack of depth.....and the fact that we dont know the health of Bell at this moment.

John, honestly, this is the stuff that cracks me up. You love Bell? Based on what? He was on the practice squad all last year. This year, he's been very limited and hurt almost all pre-season. So, based on what? No one has really even seen this guy play, but all of a sudden everyone LOVES this guy.

 

I swear some of you try to act so smart about certain guys, even though none of you have really seen his body of work.

 

I don't get it. What makes Bell so special at this point? I'm asking in all sincerity. And I'm not even saying Bell won't be able to hack it. But there's no way in hell anyone from this message board, most likely including Tim Graham and JW know anything about how successful Bell will be. No one.

 

No one has seen enough of this kid to have any idea if he's any good. No one. And the Bills track record the last ten years isn't really stellar, so believing their judgement isn't really a comforting thought either. Especially the week before the opener, and a guy with ZERO experience coming off of an injury. I hope this time, they are right. Just doesn't seem likely to me. Having Langston Walker on this team was hurting nothing at this point. Even if they wanted to sit Walker, great. But right now, with no other acquistions pending, you can't tell me the Bills are better off without Walker on this team, even if he would strictly be depth.

[Adam]

OK, we move our pro bowl (but overrated) LT and move our hardly servicable RT to play that position. We sign a center who gets bulled into the backfield by a rookie NG, then start two rookie guards. With out RT playing LT and our starting RG playing RT, we cut our LT, further depleting our depth.

 

Starting linemen don't come close to playing every down- we don't have an efficient offense with the starters in- what happens when the backup line comes in?

 

We have unproven players at every position but center and our center hasn't looked good in the preseason. I am predicting an exciting April, in which we guess who we get with the first pick.

[rstencel]

WOW. This statement is just.....WOW. I guess all you need is a few weeks in pads, and a bunch of rookies and projects to create a well oiled finely tuned O-line.

 

 

I'm not trying to be a jerk here and I apologize for the tone but this just shows an incredible lack of insight into what makes a good veteran OL with continuity. To create a good or sometimes even capable OL takes years of experience in the NFL and years of experience together.

 

Even if you have those things you can still fail. Look at our last OL. Unlike many, I don't think they were quite as bad as everyone thought. Agreed, they DID under perform their contract. They did however open more, not a lot, of holes in the running game that I have yet to see our current line open.

 

The only way to get a good veteran offensive line that has played together for long period of time, is to start them around same time frame and age, together when their young to let them grow into that together. They may be able to do that with this line, since they are all young, and most have allot of potential to grow. The hard part will be signing them all when they all get good, but we can just pretend that will happen for the sake of this point.

 

Most of the good lines in the league now, started with a few key players starting as rookies and growing in the job, and a few, (like Colts, Giants and Patriots) started as a real young line with mostly rookies and unknowns, and grew into a good line. So if never give in and give them a chance while young, will never get to the point where have a stable line that has a chance to stay together for long period of time and grow into a good one.

 

Not saying they look like had a good plan in place, and made all the right moves, but I for one, am happy that we have a young talented group of lineman that could grow together into a good line. I know there will be growing pains, and they will look awful at times, but think by end of year will be good, and in a couple of years think they will be very good, if they can keep them together.

[Adam]

Not saying they look like had a good plan in place, and made all the right moves, but I for one, am happy that we have a young talented group of lineman that could grow together into a good line. I know there will be growing pains, and they will look awful at times, but think by end of year will be good, and in a couple of years think they will be very good, if they can keep them together.

The line of: Peters, Levitre, Wood, Butler, Walker or if we just replaced Walker would have had some potential

[rstencel]

----------

 

And you say "It's pretty obvious to me that they were surprised to see his lack of desire, inept performance and couple that with a hefty salary to make the decision that he wasn't worth it to keep on the team." If lack of desire, inept performance and a hefty salary were the reasons the Walker decision was made, did the Bills just not notice this till after the last preseason game? I mean, I think those three things would all stick out pretty good.

 

If they had done this earlier, preferably much earlier, Bell would have had more reps with the first team, which would have been crucial. Not to mention more reps for Chambers.

 

Bell had a bad back for allot of the time, so keeping him for the reps was part of it. Plus the fact they were hoping to get someone to trade for him was most likely part of it too. They also had to weigh the other T's capabilities to see if any young players other than Bell could fill the backup spot if any starters got hurt. Part may be the old OC may have wanted him, and AVP wants more athletic tackles. It may just be it takes them a long time to make the tough decisions. Or maybe they said, if hes not going to try and be a good LT, we are going to wait to the last minute to cut him, so he doesn't get picked up by anyone, out of spite.

 

Its not like they haven't done anything like this before at last minute under Jaron. Remember a young player who played tackle for most of training camp, then was moved to guard in the middle, and was announced as the starting RG after the last preseason game. He worked out pretty good.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Yeah. I think they thought Oher was an RT, not an LT, and that's why they didn't grab him.

Smart. Especially since having guys that can play period is in critically short supply.

[rstencel]

OK, we move our pro bowl (but overrated) LT and move our hardly servicable RT to play that position. We sign a center who gets bulled into the backfield by a rookie NG, then start two rookie guards. With out RT playing LT and our starting RG playing RT, we cut our LT, further depleting our depth.

 

Starting linemen don't come close to playing every down- we don't have an efficient offense with the starters in- what happens when the backup line comes in?

 

We have unproven players at every position but center and our center hasn't looked good in the preseason. I am predicting an exciting April, in which we guess who we get with the first pick.

 

Well C isn't really his best position. He was a pretty good guard, but only average center while playing for the Panthers. If only they would have drafted a good young C so he could have played at his best position of guard.

[Sisyphean Bills]

Everyone can have any opinion but this one has absolutely no basis in fact.

 

THERE IS NO WAY ANY OF THOSE WHO FEEL LIKE YOU DO CAN SAY PETERS WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN HAPPY TO STAY IF PROPERLY PAID!!!

 

 

STOP IT!!!

Peters said in a recent interview that he had just told his agent to tell the Bills that he would play out his contract and that would be the end of it when his agent got the news he'd been traded. Playing hard ball with Peters did not work out in any way, shape or form for the Bills. They got one season out of Peters and it was far from his best. Yes, they saved a couple of bucks and can make a deposit in the trust funds. <golf clap>

[Sisyphean Bills]

Well C isn't really his best position. He was a pretty good guard, but only average center while playing for the Panthers. If only they would have drafted a good young C so he could have played at his best position of guard.

Someone like Wood?

[sharper802]

The point is that there was a PLAN that was implemented during the offseason -- not some knee-jerk decision a week before the season starts as some are making it out to be.

The PLAN was that Walker was going to be fine at LT so we didn't need to draft a LT.

DJ admitted they misjudged Walker's ability to play LT. If Bell was going to be the LT they could have left Walker at RT, Butler at RG and Wood would be at LG. IMO that should have been the plan as I still very much like the Maybin/Wood picks. Cutting the expected LT one week before the season starts was not the plan and my guess would be characterized as ludicrous by every other team in the NFL not in Oakland.

[sharper802]

Well C isn't really his best position. He was a pretty good guard, but only average center while playing for the Panthers. If only they would have drafted a good young C so he could have played at his best position of guard.

 

Irony and satire don't work here all the time. You may need subtitles for some....

[sharper802]

Kid, its literally FACTS not what I am telling myself...you are the one with opinnion...

 

FACT: Peters signed for less money (in a heartbeat I might add too) in Philly than he was demanding in Buffalo. He didnt want to be here, showed up fat, was the worst rated LT in the game last year in terms of sacks...what more do you want?

Only after Buffalo jerked him around....

[rstencel]

The PLAN was that Walker was going to be fine at LT so we didn't need to draft a LT.

DJ admitted they misjudged Walker's ability to play LT. If Bell was going to be the LT they could have left Walker at RT, Butler at RG and Wood would be at LG. IMO that should have been the plan as I still very much like the Maybin/Wood picks. Cutting the expected LT one week before the season starts was not the plan and my guess would be characterized as ludicrous by every other team in the NFL not in Oakland.

 

So would you rather them stick with their plan, even after they realized it was flawed, or try to do what they could to fix the problem, once they woke up.

[rstencel]

Only after Buffalo jerked him around....

 

So your saying that if you sign a contract and think worth more even before reach the halfway point of that contract, its OK to hold out? If they caved to him at the point he originally started his holdouts, they would have had half their team hold out. Very few teams will give anyone a raise with more than 2 years left in their contract, if any.

 

If he was still on his original contract, and hadn't signed an extension the year before, I would have agreed with you, but in this case, I have to side on the Bills side. Not only do I agree with their side, but would have been very upset had they caved that first year. The 2nd year was the time to do the negotiation, since was at the right point in the contract, but then he had already thrown in the towel the year before, so he lowered his value to the team, but felt he made the pro bowl anyway, so he must have been the best ever. Basically it was a no win situation, since he made the pro bowl with half effort, so chances of him putting in the work again, no matter how much money they showed him, was very low at that point.

 

Basically, I think he is a very good player, but think only choice was to let him go while he still had value, since he would never be the player he was 2 years ago as long as he stayed here in my opinion. And feel like he screwed up signing a new contract, knowing that there was a very good chance that he would be moved to LT very soon after signing that same contract, not the Bills.