Barnwell ranks offensive playmakers outside of QB

[harmonkillebrew]

5 hours ago, mushypeaches said:

I think it's pretty spot on given that he's only evaluating the quality and performance of the top 5 skill position players on their own merits

 

Our offense performed at a high level because of having a Top 5 QB, a Top 5 OL, and also lots of guys outside the primary skill position players (think Knox, Hawes, Gilliam, Ty Johnson, Shavers) that got lots of snaps and made sizable contributions.  In fact, I'm willing to bet that our "6-10" level skill players got more snaps than any other team in the league

Everybody eats.

Still, the ranking has its point - who are the go to guys at crunch time? Maybe DJ, but he'll have to prove it to the doubters

[T master]

You know I love it when they put the Bills in a underdog ranking because that just adds more motivation for them to come out swinging !!

 

This offense was one of the best last season & they have brought in some new blood I think at the beginning of the season they may start a bit slow & by mid season they will be getting a better grip on things then hopefully by the end of the year they will be hitting on all cylinders .

 

The D is the biggest concern at this point but I'm still pretty stoked but for these guys to count the Bills out, well lets just wait and see how the fair !! 

 

GO BILLS !!! 

[Sierra Foothills]

4 hours ago, Einstein said:

Sean McDermott got this team to TWO AFC Championship games, and within one bad referee call of a third, with that horrible group.
Goes to show how good the coaching was. Roster talent has been the problem and we kept the guy who made the rosters.

 

Now that McDermott's gone, "coincidentally" so are his long time defensive mainstays:

 

Matt Milano (9 seasons)

Tre’Davious White (8 seasons)

Taron Johnson (8 seasons)

Jordan Poyer (8 seasons)

AJ Epenesa (6 seasons)

Cam Lewis (6 seasons)

Jordan Phillips (6 seasons)

DaQuan Jones (4 seasons)

Baylon Spector (4 seasons)

Dane Jackson (5 seasons)

Shaq Lawson (5 seasons)

Taylor Rapp (3 seasons)

Shaq Thompson (3 seasons: 2 years in Carolina, 1 in Buffalo)

 

All of these 13 defensive players were on the roster last year but now that McDermott is gone, so are they. We're not talking about 6 players or 9 players or 11 players. We're talking about 13 defensive players in 1 offseason.

 

But Beane was solely in charge of the roster... got it.

 

[SoTier]

2 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

Now that McDermott's gone, "coincidentally" so are his long time defensive mainstays:

 

Matt Milano (9 seasons)

Tre’Davious White (8 seasons)

Taron Johnson (8 seasons)

Jordan Poyer (8 seasons)

AJ Epenesa (6 seasons)

Cam Lewis (6 seasons)

Jordan Phillips (6 seasons)

DaQuan Jones (4 seasons)

Baylon Spector (4 seasons)

Dane Jackson (5 seasons)

Shaq Lawson (5 seasons)

Taylor Rapp (3 seasons)

Shaq Thompson (3 seasons: 2 years in Carolina, 1 in Buffalo)

 

All of these 13 defensive players were on the roster last year but now that McDermott is gone, so are they. We're not talking about 6 players or 9 players or 11 players. We're talking about 13 defensive players in 1 offseason.

 

But Beane was solely in charge of the roster... got it.

 

 

You're trying much too hard.

 

First of all, Shaq Lawson has not played a game for the Bills since 2023.  He may have been on the Bills practice squad in 2025 but that hardly qualifies him as a "mainstay".  

 

Secondly, of the remaining 12 players, 4 players who were on the Bills active roster for less than 5 years can hardly be called "defensive mainstays", especially if they were subs or rotational players who didn't start.  

 

Of the 8 remaining players on your list, 4 were hardly shoo-ins for the 2026 roster because of their age, injury history and/or salary considerations even if McDermott were still the HC:  Jordan Poyer (13 years); Jordan Phillips (11 years); Tre'Davious White (10 years); and Matt Milano (9 years). Da'Quan Jones was also an unlikely returnee because of his age, but he also had been less than 5 seasons with the Bills.

 

That leaves 4 long term defensive players from the 2025 team who might fit your "thesis":  Taron Johnson, AJ Epenesa, Cam Lewis, and Dane Jackson.

Edited June 25 by SoTier

[hondo in seattle]

9 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Even as someone that has been down on the group, this feels too low: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/49154825/ranking-nfl-teams-offensive-groups-wr-rb-te-2026-season-best-playmakers

 

Do with this what you will…

 

Well, I'm glad to know I'm not the only person who feels Beane needs to pick up his game.  

[NoSaint]

9 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Even as someone that has been down on the group, this feels too low: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/49154825/ranking-nfl-teams-offensive-groups-wr-rb-te-2026-season-best-playmakers

 

Do with this what you will…

with notes that running backs count less, and injury history matter…. 
 

I think we both put Moore in the 20s and I get concerns about kincaids durability hurting there. 
 

I think the negative epa comment on cook is an eye roll

 

but generally have I hard time pushing them tooooo many spots based on that criteria. They are the poster child for being built terribly for his priorities 

[Einstein's Dog]

6 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Barnwell agrees with you on Cook.

 

Essentially saying there’s Cook and Moore—a guy coming off a season where his targets dropped 40%, yet the team went from 31st to 10th in passing—-and that’s it.  Sure maybe Kincaid stays upright for the season, but there’s really no reason to think guys like Coleman and Palmer are suddenly going to pan out. 

It's an opinion.  Like you (and Barnwell) I don't have much faith in either Coleman or Palmer but i like  Bell.

 

I would not have expected 2026 to be better than 2024 and 2025.  Cook has established himself and DJ Moore, IMO, is the best WR the Bills have had since Diggs.  The TE room has improved with Hawes.

[Einstein]

4 hours ago, Sierra Foothills said:

 

Now that McDermott's gone, "coincidentally" so are his long time defensive mainstays:

 

Matt Milano (9 seasons)

Tre’Davious White (8 seasons)

Taron Johnson (8 seasons)

Jordan Poyer (8 seasons)

AJ Epenesa (6 seasons)

Cam Lewis (6 seasons)

Jordan Phillips (6 seasons)

DaQuan Jones (4 seasons)

Baylon Spector (4 seasons)

Dane Jackson (5 seasons)

Shaq Lawson (5 seasons)

Taylor Rapp (3 seasons)

Shaq Thompson (3 seasons: 2 years in Carolina, 1 in Buffalo)

 

All of these 13 defensive players were on the roster last year but now that McDermott is gone, so are they. We're not talking about 6 players or 9 players or 11 players. We're talking about 13 defensive players in 1 offseason.

 

But Beane was solely in charge of the roster... got it.

 

Did you watch this years draft?

[Sierra Foothills]

2 hours ago, SoTier said:

You're trying much too hard.

 

First of all, Shaq Lawson has not played a game for the Bills since 2023.  He may have been on the Bills practice squad in 2025 but that hardly qualifies him as a "mainstay".  

 

Secondly, of the remaining 12 players, 4 players who were on the Bills active roster for less than 5 years can hardly be called "defensive mainstays", especially if they were subs or rotational players who didn't start.  

 

Of the 8 remaining players on your list, 4 were hardly shoo-ins for the 2026 roster because of their age, injury history and/or salary considerations even if McDermott were still the HC:  Jordan Poyer (13 years); Jordan Phillips (11 years); Tre'Davious White (10 years); and Matt Milano (9 years). Da'Quan Jones was also an unlikely returnee because of his age, but he also had been less than 5 seasons with the Bills.

 

That leaves 4 long term defensive players from the 2025 team who might fit your "thesis":  Taron Johnson, AJ Epenesa, Cam Lewis, and Dane Jackson.

 

You're trying much too hard.

 

All the players I named played significant snaps for McDermott. You don't have to be a starter to be a mainstay... especially in this day of multiple coverages and his system of rotating D-linemen.

 

In many cases, "The McDermott 13" were given roster spots and playing time over younger, less-proven players.

 

One of McDermott's failures as a HC/DC besides folding in the biggest moments was his over reliance on older players who he trusted to know their assignments. With few exceptions he didn't let younger players earn his trust by allowing them to play on game day.

 

17 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Did you watch this years draft?

 

I watch the draft every year.

 

So we're not wasting time, what's your point?

 

[DCofNC]

11 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

I have an issue with his argumentation. He says this about Amon-Ra St. Brown (the Lions are his number one team): 

 

"While Amon-Ra St. Brown managed 1,401 receiving yards and 11 touchdowns in yet another high-end campaign, the star wide receiver will look back and rue a very unexpected problem: drops. After dropping a total of five passes across his first four seasons in the league, St. Brown had five drops in 2025 alone, including one on fourth-and-2 against the Chiefs. St. Brown's track record suggests the issue was an outlier, and even with the drops, he was still wildly productive in 2025."

 

He could say the same about Cook, but instead says he fumbles once every 81 touches over his career and leaves it at that. In fact, prior to 2025, he fumbled at a rate of once out of every 105 touches in his first three seasons, and if you include playoff touches from 2022-2024, he fumbled once every 120 touches. That's genuinely good: a fumble rate of 0.83 percent. Anyway, why isn't his 2025 season an outlier like St. Brown's? He fumbled once every 57 touches in 2025 (once every 55 touches including the playoffs), which is WAY above his cumulative average in the three years beforehand. 

 

Finally, he fumbled precisely zero times at Georgia on 297 touches.

A DROP is not a turnover, the two are not the same.   A drop might cost you a drive, but it doesn’t put your team in a 50 yard hole like a fumble does/can.  You still get to punt.  A fumble can cost you points and field position.  Or in the case of Cook, it can ruin a whole drive where you would AT WORST come away with a chip shot FG, but you cough it up through the end zone and give up the points and possession.  It’s easily arguable that James Cook is THE reason the Bills didn’t make the SB last year.  Allen can be blamed, but no other skill position has more blame than Cook.  He better figure it out in a BIG hurry or his time as a premier back is going to be short.  Another season like he had this year and he’ll be gone.  5.2 per carry is great, but if you can be relied on to not do stupid ***** at the goal line, there are better options, even if they are less explosive.  A coach has to be able to trust you. 
 

[SoTier]

28 minutes ago, Einstein said:

Did you watch this years draft?

 

What has that to do with the post that I critiqued?   The poster produced a list of players he identified as "long term defensive mainstays" for the 2025 Bills who are no longer with the 2026 Bills.  He implied that they were gone because McDermott was no longer the Bills HC.  I pointed out that one of those players was never on the Bills active roster in 2025; that several players on the list could hardly be considered "long term" because they hadn't been with the team all that long; and that several of the players on the list were older more expensive veterans, some with injury histories, who may have been gone even without any coaching changes.

 

The change in the base defense required somenew players better suited to playing a 3-4.  The Bills also needed to replace some expensive veterans with cheaper, younger players.  This year's draft was perfect for both purposes. 

[DCofNC]

5 hours ago, T master said:

You know I love it when they put the Bills in a underdog ranking because that just adds more motivation for them to come out swinging !!

 

This offense was one of the best last season & they have brought in some new blood I think at the beginning of the season they may start a bit slow & by mid season they will be getting a better grip on things then hopefully by the end of the year they will be hitting on all cylinders .

 

The D is the biggest concern at this point but I'm still pretty stoked but for these guys to count the Bills out, well lets just wait and see how the fair !! 

 

GO BILLS !!! 

I agree with you, keep them hungry.  That said, the schedule had a lot to do with this team being “one of the best” in all categories, especially on O.  If you take away the cake walk and Allen, well… this team even with the addition of a sorta #1 WR is not scaring anyone.  Imagine for a second, the Eagles Roster and swap Hurts for Allen (contracts match, so yeah it could be done), can you freaking imagine?  They would be legitimate favorites to be undefeated.  The Bills roster is weak without Allen.  We’ll see if Beane is that good with evaluating drafts this year and roster build out over the next 2, but I for one, have little faith in him.  If Allen carries them to a SB, I won’t be shocked, but I’m giving credit where it’s due and that will be to Allen.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, DCofNC said:

A DROP is not a turnover, the two are not the same.   A drop might cost you a drive, but it doesn’t put your team in a 50 yard hole like a fumble does/can.  You still get to punt.  A fumble can cost you points and field position.  Or in the case of Cook, it can ruin a whole drive where you would AT WORST come away with a chip shot FG, but you cough it up through the end zone and give up the points and possession.  It’s easily arguable that James Cook is THE reason the Bills didn’t make the SB last year.  Allen can be blamed, but no other skill position has more blame than Cook.  He better figure it out in a BIG hurry or his time as a premier back is going to be short.  Another season like he had this year and he’ll be gone.  5.2 per carry is great, but if you can be relied on to not do stupid ***** at the goal line, there are better options, even if they are less explosive.  A coach has to be able to trust you. 
 

James Cook is THE reason the Bills didn’t make the Super Bowl last year.  

[Alphadawg7]

9 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

You mean when one of our receivers dropped the ball?

 

Talent.

You mean our hobbled TE coming back to a prayer pass?  What about the wide open first down Josh Allen blew when he got his pass batted down?  Is that a talent problem with Josh?  
 

Or do you think the defensive HC who lets opposing offenses playoff losses aver more production per play than even the greatest offense in NFL history averaged? 
 

You have to be utterly delusional if you don’t think coaching was a problem.  Every statistical metric literally screams it.  It’s not even a subtle thing to consider, it’s pretty undeniable.  

Edited June 26 by Alphadawg7

[Alphadawg7]

9 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

It's just an opinion 

 

And yeah our talent on offense might not be as bad as it thinks but it's also not as elite as some people think either 

 

I would have the talent of our offense outside of the quarterback Joshua Allen probably 7 to 10.. 

 

I don't have it top five for talent in the NFL

 

He's blaming the talent just like you like to blame the coaching but I'm not getting into the coaching anymore but I haven't had the bills in the top five for most talent of a team in the last 4 years 

 

Last three four years I have the bills around the 8th best roster... Could the 8th best roster win the Super bowl? Yes , but it is a lot harder to do 

 

The '90s bills had five Hall of famers and didn't win a Super bowl.. we've played Chiefs teams with three or four future Hall of famers 

 

The bills have Josh Allen that's the only guy going to Canton we have a lot of really good not a lot of elite

 

The Seahawks last year had a much better roster than us top to bottom... They had like four all pros 

 

The bills need a few more guys to play elite throughout the season and the playoffs to really get over that next hump.. to win that AFC championship game we're going to need multiple guys playing elite.. to win that Super bowl we're going to need multiple guys playing elite 

 

Even James Cook was fumbling too much at the end of the season.. not getting to the Super bowl with him just casually putting it on the carpet

 

The offense also has to clean up five turnovers in the playoffs 

 

I think we're right there and we're going to have a very good team and offense again but the difference is are we going to have two other guys outside of Josh Allen play elite for a long stretch including in the playoffs 

 

We get two or three other guys playing elite next to Josh Allen down the playoff stretch and that will take us further than we have

I have no issue with anything you’re saying, although this team has had enough talent to win and didn’t.  And coaching is the biggest reason, specifically the defense as it’s been atrocious in our losses, like historically bad and far far worse than there season rankings those years.  Reid had McDs number big time too.  
 

But injuries and self inflicted mistakes have contributed too, but our defensive patheticness in losses was heavily driven by coaching IMHO.  

[Buffalo716]

16 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

I have no issue with anything you’re saying, although this team has had enough talent to win and didn’t.  And coaching is the biggest reason, specifically the defense as it’s been atrocious in our losses, like historically bad and far far worse than there season rankings those years.  Reid had McDs number big time too.  
 

But injuries and self inflicted mistakes have contributed too, but our defensive patheticness in losses was heavily driven by coaching IMHO.  

 

You have to be good in the regular season to even get to the postseason and cherry-picking the losses without the wins just isn't the right way to do it 

 

Bill belichick greatest ever his last five playoff losses he gives up like 27 a game 

 

Mike McCarthy's last 5 playoff losses is like 32 or 33 

 

We are not losing by 15 we literally are losing by field goals in a game of inches..

 

That's the truth and a lot of players did not always play their best games 

 

Easy just to give the coach 100% of the blame... And I don't want to talk about the Old Coach anymore

 

Our roster is not in the top six or seven in the NFL for all pros the last 6 years 

 

There's a lot of things and in the NFL the Jimmy's and Joe's mean a lot.. I do think we have a lot of good even some really good we don't have historically as many elite players as the teams that win the Super bowl

 

I would like to go to the Super bowl but to think that we're magically going to make this run this year...  I don't think it's all magically fixed .. outside of Josh Allen we're going to need three  other guys to play elite All pro level throughout the season and playoffs 

 

Josh needs guys playing big time in big games consistently on both sides of the ball 

 

And I never said the team doesn't have enough talent to win a Super bowl.. as I said I think it's 7 to 10th in the NFL for overall talent outside of quarterback.. so still really good 

 

But it's easier to win with a top five  roster... So yeah I think we can win but to think that it's a shoe-in every year to go to the Super bowl when we play the long conservative approach to roster building... We don't sell out and mortgage the future 

 

Kansas City did have three or four hall of famers on the teams we were playing in those playoff games and we have Josh Allen and really good 

 

Elite players in the playoffs does make a difference.. now the Chiefs are on the old edge of all their Superstars and we have surpassed them

 

Edited June 26 by Buffalo716

[transplantbillsfan]

10 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

Don't show this to @transplantbillsfan ....

 

It's a little harsh, given it includes the defending Rushing champion and a very good collection of Tight Ends with different skills (even with Kincaid's health issues).

 

But the WR concerns are valid. Even if you're someone who wants to ignore concerns of what Moore is in 2026 and are sure he's gonna be a hit - we're one injury away from essentially having the same collection of guys that had us scrambling to bring in guys like Brandin Cooks, Gabe Davis, and Mecole Hardman  and hoping they could be the saviors for us from a WR core that was making us a one dimensional team.

 

I think it's a mistake to lean so heavily on both Keon Coleman and Josh Palmer. There is no legitimate competition in Camp to push either to earn their spots and no insurance against Palmer's injury prone ways or Keon Coleman's immaturity and ineffectiveness. Not only are we doing that, we're essentially guaranteeing one of them will have to start on the Outside (as starting a Day 3 Draft Pick right out of the gate is unlikely).

 

Right now our 5 man WR core is etched in stone with question marks to *serious* question marks abound. I feel like this is a position group that should be going into Training Camp with more legitimately rosterable players than we have roster sports to provide competition and insurance - as is the case with other positions on this team (like across the entire OL, Defensive Line, Edge, and Safety)

 

 

You're cute. Wanna hold hands?

 

Why do you think I care about what Bill Barnwell or any individual in the national media thinks.

 

We're also talking about a guy who said the Bills were getting a "less impressive version of Tyrod Taylor" when they drafted Josh Allen.

 

And for every Barnwell you can always find others raving about our offense.

 

Mina Kimes ranked Buffalo's offense in 2026 2nd and Nate Tice ranked them 4th. That's in the entire NFL.

 

And listen to the pod... it's not all Josh Allen.

[QB Bills]

16 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Even as someone that has been down on the group, this feels too low: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/49154825/ranking-nfl-teams-offensive-groups-wr-rb-te-2026-season-best-playmakers

 

Do with this what you will…

Nope. If anything, author is too high on them. Without Josh, this is a 4 win team at best.

1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said:

 

You're cute. Wanna hold hands?

 

Why do you think I care about what Bill Barnwell or any individual in the national media thinks.

 

We're also talking about a guy who said the Bills were getting a "less impressive version of Tyrod Taylor" when they drafted Josh Allen.

 

And for every Barnwell you can always find others raving about our offense.

 

Mina Kimes ranked Buffalo's offense in 2026 2nd and Nate Tice ranked them 4th. That's in the entire NFL.

 

And listen to the pod... it's not all Josh Allen.

That's nice. But no, it is all Josh. Thanks for coming out though. 

[transplantbillsfan]

Just now, QB Bills said:

Nope. If anything, author is too high on them. Without Josh, this is a 4 win team at best.

 

Just now, QB Bills said:

That's nice. But no, it is all Josh. Thanks for coming out though. 

 

We all know Josh is the lynchpin for Buffalo more than any other player or QB in the NFL. He is literally the MVP of the NFL every year since 2020.

 

However, you're being obtuse.

 

To find out how talented the weapons are on a team, put a middle of the road NFL QB on the team and ask yourself if that team sinks or swims.

 

So... you say without Josh Allen the Bills offense, which has probably a top 5 OL room, top 3 TE room and top 5 RB room and an inarguably upgraded WR room is at best a 4 win team if it had a middle of the road QB like Sam Darnold, Brock Purdy, Baker Mayfield or whatever middle of the road QB you want to fill in there?

 

You're sillier than Barnwell.

[BeyondTheProcess]

18 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Even as someone that has been down on the group, this feels too low: https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/49154825/ranking-nfl-teams-offensive-groups-wr-rb-te-2026-season-best-playmakers

 

Do with this what you will…

Barnwell tries his best to hide it, but is a hugely biased Patriots fan and cannot be trusted to be fair on anything.