What position will Groot play in Leonhard's 3-4?

[PrimeTime101]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

Agreed 💯 

i just want to say that after today, we are no longer allowed to agree on ANYTHING for at least 1 week.. Respect lol

 

[Rocbillsfan1]

4 hours ago, Flipnmi said:

In the past weeks, I've read some strong opinions that Groot will play the 5T in Leonhard's defense and others that he will be an OLB. He's reportedly been public with his preference to play OLB, but based on his ability to inside on passing downs for McDermott, the 5T spot also seems like a natural fit. I can see it going either way or perhaps situationally some of both, since versatility seems to be the new mantra. The current roster is clearly deeper in 5T candidates, but that may change with free agency and the draft, so I'm hopeful that need is not a factor. I don't believe he's a tweener that doesn't fit in either position, it's just a matter of where he fits best and can make the greatest impact in.

What's your opinion (prediction) and why?

I have this covered in the build the 2026 Bills defense thread but the conclusion is he is an OLB/Edge that could play a little on the line if needed. 

[Shaw66]

I don't know anything about the intricacies of modern 3-4 defenses. Twenty or thirty years ago, the DEs were big strong guys, a lot like Groot, maybe heavier. One of the OLBs rushed primarily, and one dropped primarily. 

 

Like several of you guys are saying, Groot simply doesn't look like a guy who can be effective dropping into pass coverage regularly. His came is going to be pursuit behind the line of scrimmage.  That seems to me to translate into a guy who may drop occasionally but not regularly. He will also drop into 3T occasionally. I'd think he'll continue to flip sides, as well. 

 

I think Groot is going to be a key player in this defense. Leonhard has been clear that he wants his best talent to make plays, and I think Rousseau is a prime candidate. They're going to be finding ways to give ways to attack the QB and to attack the run. 

 

And I think Oliver is another. I think McDermott took two special athletes on the dline - Oliver and Rousseau - and forced them into roles that limited their ability to make plays. I think rather than fittlng them into a scheme, Leonhard is going to scheme to help them use their special skills. 

[PrimeTime101]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know anything about the intricacies of modern 3-4 defenses. Twenty or thirty years ago, the DEs were big strong guys, a lot like Groot, maybe heavier. One of the OLBs rushed primarily, and one dropped primarily. 

 

Like several of you guys are saying, Groot simply doesn't look like a guy who can be effective dropping into pass coverage regularly. His came is going to be pursuit behind the line of scrimmage.  That seems to me to translate into a guy who may drop occasionally but not regularly. He will also drop into 3T occasionally. I'd think he'll continue to flip sides, as well. 

 

I think Groot is going to be a key player in this defense. Leonhard has been clear that he wants his best talent to make plays, and I think Rousseau is a prime candidate. They're going to be finding ways to give ways to attack the QB and to attack the run. 

 

And I think Oliver is another. I think McDermott took two special athletes on the dline - Oliver and Rousseau - and forced them into roles that limited their ability to make plays. I think rather than fittlng them into a scheme, Leonhard is going to scheme to help them use their special skills. 

this could not even be any more of a spot on look at this. Thanks Shaw. agree agree

[13 Seconds to Mars]

2 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Hoecht isn't 300 pounds, he's about 260.

Maybe his college weight, but no way in hell is that a 260 lb man. Hoecht is 6’4. He is most definitely closer to the 300 mark.

[13 Seconds to Mars]

35 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know anything about the intricacies of modern 3-4 defenses. Twenty or thirty years ago, the DEs were big strong guys, a lot like Groot, maybe heavier. One of the OLBs rushed primarily, and one dropped primarily. 

 

Like several of you guys are saying, Groot simply doesn't look like a guy who can be effective dropping into pass coverage regularly. His came is going to be pursuit behind the line of scrimmage.  That seems to me to translate into a guy who may drop occasionally but not regularly. He will also drop into 3T occasionally. I'd think he'll continue to flip sides, as well. 

 

I think Groot is going to be a key player in this defense. Leonhard has been clear that he wants his best talent to make plays, and I think Rousseau is a prime candidate. They're going to be finding ways to give ways to attack the QB and to attack the run. 

 

And I think Oliver is another. I think McDermott took two special athletes on the dline - Oliver and Rousseau - and forced them into roles that limited their ability to make plays. I think rather than fittlng them into a scheme, Leonhard is going to scheme to help them use their special skills. 

I feel like Deone Walker should be added to that mix as well. A massive 6’7 335 lb 2 gap DT with pass rushing prowess who made some big plays last year in his limited opportunities. Easily my favorite pick of that class and a guy I believe in immensely. I can’t wait to see how Jimmy Leonard uses him in this new & improved D. 

[MrEpsYtown]

Since it’s scientifically backed up, I used the Broncos defense in Madden. I put Groot at the 5 tech. Results are he is a monster in the run game and pass game. I used him as a base end in nickel. Dorian Williams and Michael Hoecht also excel at inside and outside backer. TJ Sanders really good in 3 tech/4i. Thats my scientifically backed up proof. 

Edited March 8 by MrEpsYtown

[BuffaloRebound]

59 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

I don't know anything about the intricacies of modern 3-4 defenses. Twenty or thirty years ago, the DEs were big strong guys, a lot like Groot, maybe heavier. One of the OLBs rushed primarily, and one dropped primarily. 

 

Like several of you guys are saying, Groot simply doesn't look like a guy who can be effective dropping into pass coverage regularly. His came is going to be pursuit behind the line of scrimmage.  That seems to me to translate into a guy who may drop occasionally but not regularly. He will also drop into 3T occasionally. I'd think he'll continue to flip sides, as well. 

 

I think Groot is going to be a key player in this defense. Leonhard has been clear that he wants his best talent to make plays, and I think Rousseau is a prime candidate. They're going to be finding ways to give ways to attack the QB and to attack the run. 

 

And I think Oliver is another. I think McDermott took two special athletes on the dline - Oliver and Rousseau - and forced them into roles that limited their ability to make plays. I think rather than fittlng them into a scheme, Leonhard is going to scheme to help them use their special skills. 

Yep.  The reason Groot fell to the end of the 1st round was because he was stiff in his movements during pre draft workouts.  He’s not gonna be dropping into coverage with any regularity.  Groot, Oliver, Walker seems like your base D-Line.  Would love to add Jaelin Phillips as the Edge rusher with those 3.  Add Chenal in free agency and Trotter or Rodriguez in the draft with Bernard and thats a good front 7.  

[Shaw66]

24 minutes ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

I feel like Deone Walker should be added to that mix as well. A massive 6’7 335 lb 2 gap DT with pass rushing prowess who made some big plays last year in his limited opportunities. Easily my favorite pick of that class and a guy I believe in immensely. I can’t wait to see how Jimmy Leonard uses him in this new & improved D. 

I don't disagree, but I think it's too soon to tell. I wouldn't say he had "limited opportunities."  47% of defensive snaps is a regular rotational role. 

 

But I agree about his potential to be another playmaker as opposed to role player. His combination of size and athleticism is really unusual. It's easy to see him as another disruptive force on the dline. 

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, noacls said:

Yes I agree but what the other teams offense does effects that a lot. Motion and backs releasing out of the backfield can change keys and responsibilities.  A good offense will try to put him in a bad s

I hear ya.  There will be some bumps along the way but I have confidence that Leonhard has the ability to give him some help.  

[BearNorth]

5 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Hoecht has been targeted 46 times in his career, averaging 11 a season. Last year was his first season at DE, he had been a 34 OLB

And hoping for a full return from injury, he will once again be a 3-4 OLB, where I suspect once fully recovered, he will be a plus player for the Bills.

[CEN-CAL17]

Groot is not an OLB in a 3-4, unless you have some kind of big package or goal line…. He’s always been great against the run and pretty stout at the LOS.

 

The Bills are going to ask Groot to gain some muscle and weight and play around 280 vs him playing at 265-270 like now.

 

He has the frame and probably needs the be around 280. 

[HoofHearted]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

Interesting.  Why do you feel that way?

 

I thought it would be the opposite.  On run downs, having on the outside to prevent anything from getting around the corner allows us to funnel everything to the middle and call plays accordingly.  Placing him at the 5T on pass downs allows him to strictly rush the passer and do what he does best, clean up.  Having more explosive rushers on the edge can funnel the QB into him.  jmo.  
 

Would love for someone more educated in this alignment chime to in with their input. It’s an interesting discussion and more enjoyable than the current threads.  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted @GunnerBill @gonzo1105

I honestly don’t understand why 5t keeps being brought up with a base front. If JL brings in a Tite front it will be 4is and a shaded nose. We’ll only see a 5t if we run an Under front as our base.

 

Nickel (Peso) is a different story.

Edited March 8 by HoofHearted

[HoofHearted]

6 hours ago, Flipnmi said:

In the past weeks, I've read some strong opinions that Groot will play the 5T in Leonhard's defense and others that he will be an OLB. He's reportedly been public with his preference to play OLB, but based on his ability to inside on passing downs for McDermott, the 5T spot also seems like a natural fit. I can see it going either way or perhaps situationally some of both, since versatility seems to be the new mantra. The current roster is clearly deeper in 5T candidates, but that may change with free agency and the draft, so I'm hopeful that need is not a factor. I don't believe he's a tweener that doesn't fit in either position, it's just a matter of where he fits best and can make the greatest impact in.

What's your opinion (prediction) and why?

Groot very likely plays both. Against heavier sets (12 or heavier) is when we will be in a base Tite front or an Under front. Groot in the Tite front is a boundary outside backer. Everyone is crying about his coverage ability, but against these heavy sets we’ll either be in man allowing him to rush or cover 3 where he is a hook/curl dropper to the short side of the field. It’s no different a drop than when we dropped him into coverage on sims in McDermotts defense. If we’re in an Under front he’d be the 5t to the weak side.

 

Outside of that we’ll primarily be in JL’s Peso front which is a 4-2-5 (and really a 2-4-5 with 3-4 personnel). He’ll play the same 5t in that which we’ve seen him play his entire career under McDermott.

Edited March 8 by HoofHearted

[Buffalo716]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

Interesting.  Why do you feel that way?

 

I thought it would be the opposite.  On run downs, having on the outside to prevent anything from getting around the corner allows us to funnel everything to the middle and call plays accordingly.  Placing him at the 5T on pass downs allows him to strictly rush the passer and do what he does best, clean up.  Having more explosive rushers on the edge can funnel the QB into him.  jmo.  
 

Would love for someone more educated in this alignment chime to in with their input. It’s an interesting discussion and more enjoyable than the current threads.  @Buffalo716 @HoofHearted @GunnerBill @gonzo1105

First you got to realize that this defense is still going to be a nickel 65% of the time.. and that's not going to be a big change 

 

It's going to look a lot like our old nickel defense with somebody rushing from the 3T, 1 T, and then edge will be mainly between 5-7T

 

Between Oliver and walker and Sanders those guys will have a lot of the inside snaps .. Gregg mite occasionally line up inside techniques but he's our best outside pass rusher right now and you need to get pressure from the edge .. 

 

The 30-40% time they are in a 34 look you mite see Gregg on the edge or 4i or 5T occasionally.. he has some flexibility but doesn't have the size of like a DeForest Buckner or JJ watt which is the prototype of a guy playing that spot at 5T... Depending on the front he might be on the edge or at the five technique

 

Gregg is giving up probably 25-30 lb to most guys who are truly built to that position though

 

 

Edited March 8 by Buffalo716

[PrimeTime101]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

I hear ya.  There will be some bumps along the way but I have confidence that Leonhard has the ability to give him some help.  

I think the problem is.. when people think of the last person that messed with our defense was Rex Ryan. So this has people scared... here is the difference... that defense was ALREADY amazing and Rex messed it up... this defense complete opposite... so im good with this change at this point in time. 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I think the problem is.. when people think of the last person that messed with our defense was Rex Ryan. So this has people scared... here is the difference... that defense was ALREADY amazing and Rex messed it up... this defense complete opposite... so im good with this change at this point in time. 

 

We had zero pro bowlers on defense and we're still top 10 and two categories 

 

That and that was considered a bad year.. we had plenty of stats in the top five and even some things number one under Sean McDermott which is not easy to do 

 

The problem is we haven't had good enough players recently

[Augie]

5 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I think the problem is.. when people think of the last person that messed with our defense was Rex Ryan. So this has people scared... here is the difference... that defense was ALREADY amazing and Rex messed it up... this defense complete opposite... so im good with this change at this point in time. 

 

The way I see it, the major difference is that Leonhard isn’t an idiot. Already we are way ahead! Somewhere he learned that games are not won at press conferences. Smart guy. Leonhard played a lot of years in the league for a 5’8” guy. He didn’t do it with his physical gifts, he was actually smart enough to overcome his limitations. I’m very excited to see him at work.

[Buffalo716]

2 hours ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Since it’s scientifically backed up, I used the Broncos defense in Madden. I put Groot at the 5 tech. Results are he is a monster in the run game and pass game. I used him as a base end in nickel. Dorian Williams and Michael Hoecht also excel at inside and outside backer. TJ Sanders really good in 3 tech/4i. Thats my scientifically backed up proof. 

Yeah but he is undersized for a five technique in the NFL 

 

Video game wise I'm sure he's a freak cuz he's a great athlete but most of those people playing that position are 290 295 

 

Bills don't even list them at 270 I've said for years he should bulk up and if he did he would fit it great

[MrEpsYtown]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Yeah but he is undersized for a five technique in the NFL 

 

Video game wise I'm sure he's a freak cuz he's a great athlete but most of those people playing that position are 290 295 

 

Bills don't even list them at 270 I've said for years he should bulk up and if he did he would fit it great

I think he’s fine there around 265-270. But yeah it remains to be seen where they play him. And obviously I’m weird they have a plan. I think he can dabble in some OLB but not sure it’s ideal. He’s going to be an end in nickel packages either way so it’s just a matter of find that fit in the base D.