The Case for Ed Oliver at Nose

[Ennjay]

Thanks OP for the technical analysis.  Just wondering, without rejecting the Oliver argument:  can Deone Walker, a huge human being, play NT?

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Assuming we aren't in 5 every down? Or are you saying Oliver only plays nose in a 5 man front look

I was specifically referring to base defense, the 5 down Under front look in the diagrams above, in this thread. There's no shot Ed plays the nose in our Peso (4-2-5 look) for the reasons you've already stated. I also don't believe we will be static with our personnel, especially in our base look. I think JL will move guys around to take advantage of matchups fairly regularly.

2 minutes ago, Ennjay said:

Thanks OP for the technical analysis.  Just wondering, without rejecting the Oliver argument:  can Deone Walker, a huge human being, play NT?

Yes, and I believe he will likely play the Nose more often than Ed will. Him and Ed both have position flexibility in this base front that will allow us to move them around to take advantage of the best matchups. That's what excites me right now.

[gonzo1105]

8 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Where are your doubles vs a 5 man front?

I would run outside zone as an  against a Leonard front. That’s the weakness. We’re teaching the offensive line to take the defensive lineman where they want to go on the front side and chopping backside or chipping and getting to the 2nd level. Running backs aim point is the crack of the Tight End all the way back to midline. On the RB to find the hole. The weakness of any 5 man front is outside if the end man can be dictated 

 

Buck Sweep with either a crack on the end man or a switch concept with the tight end/Tackle or Tackle guard  basically replacing where the tight end makes the block down on the end and the the Tackle/Guard kicks out while the backside guard runs it like power right off the ass of the tackle guard kicking out 

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

I was specifically referring to base defense, the 5 down Under front look in the diagrams above, in this thread. There's no shot Ed plays the nose in our Peso (4-2-5 look) for the reasons you've already stated. I also don't believe we will be static with our personnel, especially in our base look. I think JL will move guys around to take advantage of matchups fairly regularly.

OK

 

No diss to ed Oliver. I'm all for putting him in positions to succeed. I'm mostly saying the Malcom Roach argument doesn't take into account Oliver doesn't have the benefit of the attention Zach Allen generates at DE

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Eddy also played NT in McD's scheme a few years back and I think in college. 
 

In a true attacking style defense, Ed would be a keypoint you want. I assume Walker and Sanders would flank him. 
 

My only hold up is expecting the run defense to improve while keeping all the same guys. Oliver (290) Bernard (224) and Williams (230) give us a very light middle, and I don't think Bills will trade either guy.

[BearNorth]

1 hour ago, boyst said:

I am curious if we could shade AJE at OLB/DE in even a 33 of playing in front of a healthy Milano or Thompson.

 

AJE provides length, vision, and the ability to distract the QB. He's not on the roster yet but it's an interesting prospect when we don't have many to draw on. 

Denver plays Jonathan Cooper, who is the about the same size as AJE [6-4 257] at LOLB, 770 Dline snaps.

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

I would run outside zone as an  against a Leonard front. That’s the weakness. We’re teaching the offensive line to take the defensive lineman where they want to go on the front side and chopping backside or chipping and getting to the 2nd level. Running backs aim point is the crack of the Tight End all the way back to midline. On the RB to find the hole. The weakness of any 5 man front is outside if the end man can be dictated 

You don't have the angles to get to the second level defenders. PS Tackle and BS guard are both being occupied by the ends who are playing them heavy hand on their inside and outside half. By the time the PS Guard and BS Tackle overtake those backers will already be at the LoS.

 

8 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

Buck Sweep with either a crack on the end man or a switch concept with the tight end/Tackle or Tackle guard  basically replacing where the tight end makes the block down on the end and the the Tackle/Guard kicks out while the backside guard runs it like power right off the ass of the tackle guard kicking out 

Adding the crack also adds in another defender. Labeled him "DB" in the diagram since it could be a corner or safety depending on formation, but they'll take the kick, Mike will Spill, and Will is going to wrap. Gapped out and still have your Alley player for clean up.

 

We can play last guy with the pen all day haha. Schematically, it fits well though.

14 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Eddy also played NT in McD's scheme a few years back and I think in college. 
 

In a true attacking style defense, Ed would be a keypoint you want. I assume Walker and Sanders would flank him. 
 

My only hold up is expecting the run defense to improve while keeping all the same guys. Oliver (290) Bernard (224) and Williams (230) give us a very light middle, and I don't think Bills will trade either guy.

5 man front allows the backers to play clean. Angles aren't there for opposing offenses to get their OL to second level defenders.

[gonzo1105]

8 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

You don't have the angles to get to the second level defenders. PS Tackle and BS guard are both being occupied by the ends who are playing them heavy hand on their inside and outside half. By the time the PS Guard and BS Tackle overtake those backers will already be at the LoS.

 

Adding the crack also adds in another defender. Labeled him "DB" in the diagram since it could be a corner or safety depending on formation, but they'll take the kick, Mike will Spill, and Will is going to wrap. Gapped out and still have your Alley player for clean up.

 

We can play last guy with the pen all day haha. Schematically, it fits well though.

5 man front allows the backers to play clean. Angles aren't there for opposing offenses to get their OL to second level defenders.

I disagree with the way you have it blocked up it’s clear you have Microsoft visio though. So I know you have some coaching experience at some level. I’m not trying to be a dick it’s actually pleasant to have someone like you to challenge and vice versa.  Zone blocking blocks areas not specific men hence the concept zone. 
 

Y IS reaching to F like you have. Guard and Tackle are getting hands on the end. If Mike goes outside tackle has him, if he goes inside the guard has him. Yes the 1 shade is the hardest block but if an NFL center can’t reach a 1 T in a 1 shade he shouldn’t be in the NFL. If he can’t make that reach block then we are taking him where he wants to go and it changes the running backs aimpoint.  Guard is immediately coming off the ass of the Center and getting to 2nd level on the Will. I don’t know why there is a double there. The tackle would come down and reach or chop the end. The Backside backer is unblocked like you have 
 

That’s why the aim point is from the Tight ends crack all the way to midline. We’re just blocking em into space. If the Center can reach the one great we’re coming off tackle if he can’t then fine we’re taking him down the line and the RB has to come off the centers butt

 

[BillsShredder83]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

This is what excites me most about this new brand of defensive football we are about to experience in Buffalo. The 3 down front opens up so many possibilities for us to win matchups up front, constantly changing and shifting our personnel to dictate to the offense. In another thread I posted a couple diagrams of how we can easily bring a fourth rusher from the field or boundary in this new structure, but since it's buried I will share those here as well.

 

TITE FIELD 3

TITE BOUNDARY 3

 

These are simple 4 man rushes playing Cover 3 behind, but the structure of the defense is what allows us to be able to consistently and easily bring edge pressure from wherever we want and keep an offense guessing. The structure of the 3 down front is what allows this to happen because it's a balanced set. What I mean by this is we have 5 defenders to field and 5 defenders to the boundary with our final defender (the 1t) in a position to move and manipulate protections as we see fit. Due to this threat, especially when we start getting into actual pressure packages where we bring double edge pressure or two off edge, teams will need to make adjustments to how they protect up front.

 

 

 

Continued on the next post...

 

Id imagine the biggest hurdle is finding 2 very unique players at OL(and paying them).  Obv not many DE's out there capable of coverage.... especially vs. slot/TE

 

How do you compensate for that aside from finding unique dudes?  Is the zone theyre asking to cover quite a bit smaller than usual?  Or is it the fact that there are extra LB's shading that direction? Combination of all 3 + stuff im missing LOL?

[HoofHearted]

1 minute ago, gonzo1105 said:

I disagree with the way you have it blocked up it’s clear you have Microsoft visio though. So I know you have some coaching experience at some level. I’m not trying to be a dick it’s actually pleasant to have someone like you to challenge and vice versa.  Zone blocking blocks areas not specific men hence the concept zone. 
 

Y IS reaching to F like you have. Guard and Tackle are getting hands on the end. If Mike goes outside tackle has him, if he goes inside the guard has him. Yes the 1 shade is the hardest block but if an NFL center can’t reach a 1 T in a 1 shade he shouldn’t be in the NFL. If he can’t make that reach block then we are taking him where he wants to go and it changes the running backs aimpoint.  Guard is immediately coming off the ass of the Center and getting to 2nd level on the Will. I don’t know why there is a double there. The tackle would come down and reach or chop the end. The Backside backer is unblocked like you have 
 

That’s why the aim point is from the Tight ends crack all the way to midline. We’re just blocking em into space. If the Center can reach the one great we’re coming off tackle if he can’t then fine we’re taking him down the line and the RB has to come off the centers butt

 

I have it blocked using the rules every coach in America uses to teach blocking outside zone - covered/uncovered. You tell me that BS Guard is going to immediately climb second level and I'm telling you that BS 3t is making the tackle in the backfield. Covered have to engage to give uncovered time to overtake - they are all working their 45 degree boards to the PS - but you can't just let a guy go.

7 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Id imagine the biggest hurdle is finding 2 very unique players at OL(and paying them).  Obv not many DE's out there capable of coverage.... especially vs. slot/TE

 

How do you compensate for that aside from finding unique dudes?  Is the zone theyre asking to cover quite a bit smaller than usual?  Or is it the fact that there are extra LB's shading that direction? Combination of all 3 + stuff im missing LOL?

No, you have to find guys who can move in space. No way around that. Your field guy has to be more of the athlete than the boundary guy naturally because there is more area to cover. Schematically you try to keep that as protected as possible. More often than not you'll see them dropping to curls to the field rather than flats to protect them.

[BillsShredder83]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Teams will eventually get tired of their back consistently having to be responsible for picking up our edge pressures and will adjust their protection up front move from a more traditional slide protection to what is called fan protection.

 

 

Fan protection is a response to edge pressure. Against 3 down fronts the offensive line is responsible for all three defensive linemen plus the two widest blitz threats on either side of the offense. The RB is now responsible for any interior pressure that presents itself. As you can see from the diagram above, this puts out 1t in a 1v1 vs. a center. And this is where Ed Oliver enters the conversation. Oliver 1v1 on a center is an enormous mismatch that we can take full advantage of.

 

Now lets talk about Sim pressure. A simulated pressure is essentially any pressure where the defense looks like they are bringing more than 4 guys, but ultimately only bring 4. Below is an example of a common sim pressure that blends perfectly with what we are doing defensively, but an excellent way to attack Fan Protection. What it is at it's core is a pre-snap show of double edge pressure rolling Cover 3 behind it. Both of your OLBs are showing as if they are about to come off the edge. When the ball is snapped they will take two attack steps up the field to pull the Tackles Eyes and then immediately drop back out into coverage. Both guards will fan out to the Ends, the Nose will be 1v1 vs the Center, and we then bring our Will LB from depth. This puts our Will 1v1 vs the back. You can see how this clearly creates an advantage for our defense getting 2 1v1s right in the face of the QB. With Eds athleticism and the athleticism of our Will backers rushing - this can be a deadly combination that we can employ on Sundays.

 

TITE WILL 3

Damn this is beautiful!  Im guessing there are ways to combine a variation of this and brine an extra guy still.  Its already mayhem here to process post snap, cant imagine adding an actual blitzer

[BillsShredder83]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

Teams will eventually get tired of their back consistently having to be responsible for picking up our edge pressures and will adjust their protection up front move from a more traditional slide protection to what is called fan protection.

 

 

Fan protection is a response to edge pressure. Against 3 down fronts the offensive line is responsible for all three defensive linemen plus the two widest blitz threats on either side of the offense. The RB is now responsible for any interior pressure that presents itself. As you can see from the diagram above, this puts out 1t in a 1v1 vs. a center. And this is where Ed Oliver enters the conversation. Oliver 1v1 on a center is an enormous mismatch that we can take full advantage of.

 

Now lets talk about Sim pressure. A simulated pressure is essentially any pressure where the defense looks like they are bringing more than 4 guys, but ultimately only bring 4. Below is an example of a common sim pressure that blends perfectly with what we are doing defensively, but an excellent way to attack Fan Protection. What it is at it's core is a pre-snap show of double edge pressure rolling Cover 3 behind it. Both of your OLBs are showing as if they are about to come off the edge. When the ball is snapped they will take two attack steps up the field to pull the Tackles Eyes and then immediately drop back out into coverage. Both guards will fan out to the Ends, the Nose will be 1v1 vs the Center, and we then bring our Will LB from depth. This puts our Will 1v1 vs the back. You can see how this clearly creates an advantage for our defense getting 2 1v1s right in the face of the QB. With Eds athleticism and the athleticism of our Will backers rushing - this can be a deadly combination that we can employ on Sundays.

 

TITE WILL 3

Damn this is beautiful!  Im guessing there are ways to combine a variation of this and brine an extra guy still.  Its already mayhem here to process post snap, cant imagine adding an actual blitzer.

 

Also, I have to wonder if seeing less double teams will help keep Oliver healthier?  Maybe it's just a wash (or worse) since Im guessing theres more snaps/less rotation in this kind of front?

[EmotionallyUnstable]

 

Thanks again for the great content.

 

How do you feel Hoecht plays into these roles? Do you feel he could be slotted into the 4i End role or more of a backside backer? 

I am intrigued to see how they can tinker with the different personnel on different downs

 

Groot - Walker - Oliver

Hoecht - Oliver - Sanders

 

PS do coaches in the Fangio tree name the field or backside backer akin to anything (Sam; Jack, Cat, etc)

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, gonzo1105 said:

I would run outside zone as an  against a Leonard front. That’s the weakness. We’re teaching the offensive line to take the defensive lineman where they want to go on the front side and chopping backside or chipping and getting to the 2nd level. Running backs aim point is the crack of the Tight End all the way back to midline. On the RB to find the hole. The weakness of any 5 man front is outside if the end man can be dictated 

 

Buck Sweep with either a crack on the end man or a switch concept with the tight end/Tackle or Tackle guard  basically replacing where the tight end makes the block down on the end and the the Tackle/Guard kicks out while the backside guard runs it like power right off the ass of the tackle guard kicking out 

For any wondering this is a great watch that's helpful here

 

 

[gonzo1105]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

I have it blocked using the rules every coach in America uses to teach blocking outside zone - covered/uncovered. You tell me that BS Guard is going to immediately climb second level and I'm telling you that BS 3t is making the tackle in the backfield. Covered have to engage to give uncovered time to overtake - they are all working their 45 degree boards to the PS - but you can't just let a guy go.

 

To me the uncovered player is the backside guard. Yes he has a shade in a 3 Tech but if the play is to the right, he's going to bucket step right and hes uncovered, should he get hands on the 3 Tech yes he should but its the Tackles job to reach block that 3 shade on the backside. 

[HoofHearted]

22 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Damn this is beautiful!  Im guessing there are ways to combine a variation of this and brine an extra guy still.  Its already mayhem here to process post snap, cant imagine adding an actual blitzer

I'll do a post at some point with various blitz schemes we should expect to see out of this defense.

[BillsShredder83]

41 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

 I’m not trying to be a dick it’s actually pleasant to have someone like you to challenge and vice versa.

 

As an outsider too dumb to partake, I'm enjoying this lol so thank you both for real!

[gonzo1105]

3 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

As an outsider too dumb to partake, I'm enjoying this lol so thank you both for real!

Yea I want him and others to know that. I love this kind of talk, I really do and I don’t want him or anyone else to take offense at all. It’s good conversation and honestly it’s a really good way for coaches to learn what other people are thinking etc. To me it can be ran on with zone. It’s a disagreement clearly not on the level of a Beane/McDermott draft day decision though 
 

 

[HoofHearted]

19 minutes ago, gonzo1105 said:

 

To me the uncovered player is the backside guard. Yes he has a shade in a 3 Tech but if the play is to the right, he's going to bucket step right and hes uncovered, should he get hands on the 3 Tech yes he should but its the Tackles job to reach block that 3 shade on the backside. 

I don't really know what else to say. By definition he's covered and has to engage the 3t. Your mindset overall is the right one though. You want to find ways to crack the edges and attack the sideline. Force DBs to take on pullers and make tackles.

 

 

[Starr Almighty]

If we can see a few tackles behind the LOS every now and then that in itself would be exciting