The Case for Ed Oliver at Nose

[HoofHearted]

This is what excites me most about this new brand of defensive football we are about to experience in Buffalo. The 3 down front opens up so many possibilities for us to win matchups up front, constantly changing and shifting our personnel to dictate to the offense. In another thread I posted a couple diagrams of how we can easily bring a fourth rusher from the field or boundary in this new structure, but since it's buried I will share those here as well.

 

TITE FIELD 3

TITE BOUNDARY 3

 

These are simple 4 man rushes playing Cover 3 behind, but the structure of the defense is what allows us to be able to consistently and easily bring edge pressure from wherever we want and keep an offense guessing. The structure of the 3 down front is what allows this to happen because it's a balanced set. What I mean by this is we have 5 defenders to field and 5 defenders to the boundary with our final defender (the 1t) in a position to move and manipulate protections as we see fit. Due to this threat, especially when we start getting into actual pressure packages where we bring double edge pressure or two off edge, teams will need to make adjustments to how they protect up front.

 

 

 

Continued on the next post...

 

Edited February 7 by HoofHearted

[hondo in seattle]

@HoofHearted, as someone who knows defensive schemes far better than I ever will, or even aspire to, let me ask...

 

How would you evaluate the pros and cons of McD's defense versus Leonard's?  Overall, which do you think will be more successful against today's NFL offenses?  

I realize Leonard has never been a DC before, but you seem to have a good handle on his defensive philosophy.  

[QB Bills]

He's far too small to be playing a traditional NT role, isn't he?

[HoofHearted]

Teams will eventually get tired of their back consistently having to be responsible for picking up our edge pressures and will adjust their protection up front move from a more traditional slide protection to what is called fan protection.

 

 

Fan protection is a response to edge pressure. Against 3 down fronts the offensive line is responsible for all three defensive linemen plus the two widest blitz threats on either side of the offense. The RB is now responsible for any interior pressure that presents itself. As you can see from the diagram above, this puts out 1t in a 1v1 vs. a center. And this is where Ed Oliver enters the conversation. Oliver 1v1 on a center is an enormous mismatch that we can take full advantage of.

 

Now lets talk about Sim pressure. A simulated pressure is essentially any pressure where the defense looks like they are bringing more than 4 guys, but ultimately only bring 4. Below is an example of a common sim pressure that blends perfectly with what we are doing defensively, but an excellent way to attack Fan Protection. What it is at it's core is a pre-snap show of double edge pressure rolling Cover 3 behind it. Both of your OLBs are showing as if they are about to come off the edge. When the ball is snapped they will take two attack steps up the field to pull the Tackles Eyes and then immediately drop back out into coverage. Both guards will fan out to the Ends, the Nose will be 1v1 vs the Center, and we then bring our Will LB from depth. This puts our Will 1v1 vs the back. You can see how this clearly creates an advantage for our defense getting 2 1v1s right in the face of the QB. With Eds athleticism and the athleticism of our Will backers rushing - this can be a deadly combination that we can employ on Sundays.

 

TITE WILL 3

[HoofHearted]

9 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

@HoofHearted, as someone who knows defensive schemes far better than I ever will, or even aspire to, let me ask...

 

How would you evaluate the pros and cons of McD's defense versus Leonard's?  Overall, which do you think will be more successful against today's NFL offenses?  

I realize Leonard has never been a DC before, but you seem to have a good handle on his defensive philosophy.  

They're both very different philosophies and both can be very successful in today's NFL. McDermott's defense ran it's course because it MUST be able to get home with 4 rushers. Well when you pick 25th+ in the draft every year those guys are already gone and teams rarely let those guys hit the free agent market in their prime. Anyone who says his system is flawed, broken, or figured out don't understand what they are looking at or talking about. Just go take a look at Houston's defense this year. They do essentially the same stuff we did with McDermott, but they have the dudes up front to make it go. JL's defense is all about pressure and making QBs uncomfortable. Where McDermott's defense was about disguising coverages, Leonhard's will be about disguising pressures. A total flip from looking complicated in the back end to looking complicated on the front end. There's give and take to all of this. The pressure system JL wants to employ puts a ton of stress on the backend of his defense.

14 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

He's far too small to be playing a traditional NT role, isn't he?

Yes, but this defense will not employ a traditional 2 gapping nose. In fact, based on the front structure, the nose will rarely even see double teams because we're playing with 5 at the line.

[boyst]

I am curious if we could shade AJE at OLB/DE in even a 33 of playing in front of a healthy Milano or Thompson.

 

AJE provides length, vision, and the ability to distract the QB. He's not on the roster yet but it's an interesting prospect when we don't have many to draw on. 

[HappyDays]

17 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Where McDermott's defense was about disguising coverages, Leonhard's will be about disguising pressures. A total flip from looking complicated in the back end to looking complicated on the front end. There's give and take to all of this. The pressure system JL wants to employ puts a ton of stress on the backend of his defense.

 

Well this is music to my ears. We have a lot of talent in the secondary. Sounds like McDermott's scheme was utilizing the weakness of our defense like it was the strength, and vice versa.

[HoofHearted]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Well this is music to my ears. We have a lot of talent in the secondary. Sounds like McDermott's scheme was utilizing the weakness of our defense like it was the strength, and vice versa.

Which is why I think we saw a shift in FA and draft targets these last few years trending more man pressure mindset and less traditional zone fits. McDermott knew he was going to have to bring pressures and play more MOFC coverages in order to disrupt QBs since we weren't going to get the dudes up front to do it alone.

[hondo in seattle]

I read a more simplistic explanation somewhere else saying that Ed is not a good fit for Leonhard's defense because he's too small to play NT in a 3-4.  Not being as expert in scheme as ought to be, I wasn't sure if that was correct or not.  Reading @HoofHearted's two most recent threads, I feel better about how Ed, and some others, can succeed in Leonhard's scheme. 

 

From what I gather, Beane's not going to have to draft & sign a whole new starting 11 for Leonhard's scheme to work.  Theoretically, Leonhard can be successful his first year.  Whether he is or not, remains to be seen.  He's a first time NFL DC and it's hard to know from afar how well he'll adapt to his new role.  But he seems like a bright guy well-versed in modern defensive schemes and philosophies.  

[GunnerBill]

42 minutes ago, QB Bills said:

He's far too small to be playing a traditional NT role, isn't he?

 

Almost no teams, even 3-4 teams, employ a traditional nose anymore. Indeed they are increasingly going to the type of defense Denver used last year when JL was there where the nose is a penetrating position. @HoofHearted does a better job than me at explaining the why and how - but the nose at Denver was Malcolm Roach, a 290lbs DT with sub 32" arms. I mean he is basically a poor man's Ed Oliver. 

 

I have said it elsewhere to me Ed is one of the easier an more natural projected fits in the new scheme of the guys we have in the front 7.

[SoonerBillsFan]

I say Oliver is trade bait.  Leonard wants to stop the run 1st.  We need a couple big guys who can play NT.

 

But I am good with whatever our DC wants

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

I say Oliver is trade bait.  Leonard wants to stop the run 1st.  We need a couple big guys who can play NT.

 

Sometimes it's helpful to actually read the thread first. 

[BigAl2526]

I have been one of those who wondered if there would be a place for Oliver in Leonhard's defense.  All I can say is, this is going to be interesting as my education in modern NFL strategy continues.

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Sometimes it's helpful to actually read the thread first. 

Seems like it's predicated on getting ed Oliver 1v1 vs a center, a position you should expect most DTs to be successful

 

Having already seeen Oliver at 1t I'm not overly optimistic 

[SoonerBillsFan]

5 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Sometimes it's helpful to actually read the thread first. 

Im on pain meds... 😁

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

Seems like it's predicated on getting ed Oliver 1v1 vs a center, a position you should expect most DTs to be successful

 

Having already seeen Oliver at 1t I'm not overly optimistic 

Oliver was never meant to be a shade NT. He is a gap penetrator in a 4 man front 

[Simon]

4 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Seems like it's predicated on getting ed Oliver 1v1 vs a center, a position you should expect most DTs to be successful

 

Having already seeen Oliver at 1t I'm not overly optimistic 

 

I think this will be different because it doesn't seem like they're going to be asking him to control the A gaps.

It feels like they'll be cutting him loose to get into the backfield to bust plays and create mayhem on the other side of the LOS.

 

3 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

Im on pain meds... 😁

 

Did you know washing them down with a beer works as a force multiplier;-)

[GoBills808]

Just now, Simon said:

 

I think this will be different because it doesn't seem like they're going to be asking him to control the A gaps.

It feels like they'll be cutting him loose to get into the backfield to bust plays and create mayhem on the other side of the LOS.

I just think Oliver's limited physically in that role

 

If the idea is to get your 1t 1v1 on center, I expect most would be successful there, Oliver included. But countering a NT/1t who can't two gap or anchor vs doubles isn't a very difficult task for an offense

[MJS]

36 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Almost no teams, even 3-4 teams, employ a traditional nose anymore. Indeed they are increasingly going to the type of defense Denver used last year when JL was there where the nose is a penetrating position. @HoofHearted does a better job than me at explaining the why and how - but the nose at Denver was Malcolm Roach, a 290lbs DT with sub 32" arms. I mean he is basically a poor man's Ed Oliver. 

 

I have said it elsewhere to me Ed is one of the easier an more natural projected fits in the new scheme of the guys we have in the front 7.

Exactly. Anyone thinking that Ed Oliver isn't a fit is just not correct. I don't know if Oliver will play nose or not, but he will have a spot somewhere. It is the edge/olb position (we need more speed and flexibility style rushers) and inside linebackers (we need downhill thumpers) that will be the biggest transition.

[HoofHearted]

10 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I just think Oliver's limited physically in that role

 

If the idea is to get your 1t 1v1 on center, I expect most would be successful there, Oliver included. But countering a NT/1t who can't two gap or anchor vs doubles isn't a very difficult task for an offense

Where are your doubles vs a 5 man front?

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Where are your doubles vs a 5 man front?

Assuming we aren't in 5 every down? Or are you saying Oliver only plays nose in a 5 man front look