st pete gogolak Posted January 23 Posted January 23 In another thread I referenced a guy named Steve Owen. Owen was head coach of the NY Giants and won a NFL Championship in the 50’s. No one remembers Owen but they do remember his OC and his DC - Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry, respectively. The above is an extreme example but I really believe that weak OC’s and/or DC’s cost us multiple Super Bowl wins in both the Jim Kelly and Josh Allen eras. In the 1988 season Jim Ringo was OC. The offense went into a tailspin the last month of the season. The slump continued into the playoffs. Ted Marchibroda was hired next season and 1989 - 1991 were three of the best offensive seasons in Bills’ history. If Marchibroda was hired one season earlier, Bills very well could have been Super Bowl Champion in 1988 (yes, Belicheck bested both Kelly and Marchibroda in Super Bowl XXV). Walt Corey was mediocre DC on those teams. Bills D was good but a defense with Bruce Smith, Cornelius Bennett, Daryl Talley and more, all in their prime, should have been great, not good. If Wade Phillips was our DC on those teams, we win one or more Super Bowls. Coming back to the present, yes picking the right HC is important, but we are going to need upper echelon OC and DC to make a run at a Super Bowls title. 9 4 1 1 Quote
Success Posted January 23 Posted January 23 I feel like we've never been serious about coordinators. The DC has generally been what most of us thought was just more of a puppet for McDermott's schemes, and the OC after Daboll has been an internal promotion. We need to get serious about the coordinators this time. I genuinely believe that our lack of focus on those important coaching roles has cost us a title more than anything. 3 2 1 1 Quote
hondo in seattle Posted January 23 Posted January 23 17 minutes ago, st pete gogolak said: In another thread I referenced a guy named Steve Owen. Owen was head coach of the NY Giants and won a NFL Championship in the 50’s. No one remembers Owen but they do remember his OC and his DC - Vince Lombardi and Tom Landry, respectively. The above is an extreme example but I really believe that weak OC’s and/or DC’s cost us multiple Super Bowl wins in both the Jim Kelly and Josh Allen eras. In the 1988 season Jim Ringo was OC. The offense went into a tailspin the last month of the season. The slump continued into the playoffs. Ted Marchibroda was hired next season and 1989 - 1991 were three of the best offensive seasons in Bills’ history. If Marchibroda was hired one season earlier, Bills very well could have been Super Bowl Champion in 1988 (yes, Belicheck bested both Kelly and Marchibroda in Super Bowl XXV). Walt Corey was mediocre DC on those teams. Bills D was good but a defense with Bruce Smith, Cornelius Bennett, Daryl Talley and more, all in their prime, should have been great, not good. If Wade Phillips was our DC on those teams, we win one or more Super Bowls. Coming back to the present, yes picking the right HC is important, but we are going to need upper echelon OC and DC to make a run at a Super Bowls title. I'm one of McD's bigger supporters and think much of the criticism he receives is unfair and ill-founded. But not this. Reid's got Spags for the other side of the ball. McD never found his Spags, arguably never built an elite staff. The new HC could be a somewhat weaker coach than McD but if he finds his Lombardi and Landry, we're golden. P.S. Love the 1950s reference! 6 1 Quote
Big Turk Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Sure, as long as you have a quality CEO type coach. If not then you'll have really good coordinators and a 9-8 team. Quote
machine gun kelly Posted January 23 Posted January 23 1 hour ago, Success said: I feel like we've never been serious about coordinators. The DC has generally been what most of us thought was just more of a puppet for McDermott's schemes, and the OC after Daboll has been an internal promotion. We need to get serious about the coordinators this time. I genuinely believe that our lack of focus on those important coaching roles has cost us a title more than anything. Although I usually agree with Success, and do in the point that we need to focus on excellent coordinators. Babich being a puppet for me is a reach. Maybe, but none of us know. To support my tbd friend success, in 2002 the Bucs paid Monte Kiffin more than anything other DC in the league at that time as the Glazers knew Gruden can handle offense, but Kiffin basically ran the defense. Their strength. They win that SB against the Raiders. My point is simply Kiffin brought the Bucs a SB. I just sincerely hope Pegula and Beane find the right hopefully offensively minded coach, and bring home with a defensive genius as coordinators. 1 Quote
jkeerie Posted January 23 Posted January 23 That's why I want an offensive minded HC. If you're successful, you'll lose your coordinators and I think it's easier to replace your defensive coordinator vs your offensive. Look at Detroit, SF, Philly. SF loses Saleh as but remains competitive. Detroit loses Johnson and their O falls off while their D is just as good under Shepherd. Same with Philly. The HC can carry on with offensive play calling while he's grooming the new guy. 1 Quote
SinceThe70s Posted January 23 Posted January 23 11 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said: Although I usually agree with Success, and do in the point that we need to focus on excellent coordinators. Babich being a puppet for me is a reach. Maybe, but none of us know. To support my tbd friend success, in 2002 the Bucs paid Monte Kiffin more than anything other DC in the league at that time as the Glazers knew Gruden can handle offense, but Kiffin basically ran the defense. Their strength. They win that SB against the Raiders. My point is simply Kiffin brought the Bucs a SB. I just sincerely hope Pegula and Beane find the right hopefully offensively minded coach, and bring home with a defensive genius as coordinators. The Glazers knew? Didn't realize they were football savants. Nothing against Kiffin but a big reason the Bucs beat the Raiders was because Gruden knew the Raiders offense and his replacement (Callahan) didn't change the play calling after Gruden left to the point that the Bucs defense were calling the Raiders plays pre-snap - that's the story I heard. Quote
Dan Posted January 23 Posted January 23 Agreed. HC is important to set the tone and guide the ship. But without quality coordinators… he will fail. 1 Quote
machine gun kelly Posted January 23 Posted January 23 7 hours ago, SinceThe70s said: The Glazers knew? Didn't realize they were football savants. Nothing against Kiffin but a big reason the Bucs beat the Raiders was because Gruden knew the Raiders offense and his replacement (Callahan) didn't change the play calling after Gruden left to the point that the Bucs defense were calling the Raiders plays pre-snap - that's the story I heard. That theory was far overblown on Gruden, and the Raiders had a year under a new HC to evolve their offense. As far as the Glaziers, they made him the highest paid DC at the time, because he was part of the architect of the Tampa 2 with Dungy, and had brought a championship defense for several years. They wanted an offensive mind to ge them home. Ive watched and followed the Bucs for 30 years, as I moved to Tampa to go to Graduate and post grad school in the 90’s. I started following them (along with the Bills) when Dungy was hired in the mid 90’s. He brought like McD respect to that team when it was a drift for years prior. Quote
nuklz2594 Posted January 23 Posted January 23 the hc is supposed to delegate not run everything with a my way or highway mantra. Quote
Nihilarian Posted January 23 Posted January 23 When a new HC is interviewed, he sells his plan to the owners, GM, or whoever is in charge of the hiring. He lays out his plan for schemes, coordinators, and what he can do with the current roster. An example might be that when Bills GM Buddy Nix and Ralph Wilson was the owner back in 2010, the Buffalo Bills were so toxic that nobody wanted the job in Buffalo because Wilson would micromanage the team by phone from Detroit. Nix couldn't even get interviews from noted assistants. Chan Gailey was hired back in 2010 because he told Ralph Wilson he could win games without star players. Mind you that the last NFL job Chan Gailey had in the NFL was as an OC for the KC Chiefs in 2008, and he was fired in KC for fielding about the worst offense in the league with Tyler Thigpin as QB at 2-14. So, Buffalo hired a new HC who was fired from his last job as an OC 2 years earlier because nobody else would take the job. This was kinda why the franchise went nearly 20 years with not many wins each year. When Terry & Kim Pegula hired Rex Ryan in 2015, his big mouth sold them a bad bill of goods about how he would do this and how he would do that, and it was mostly nonsense because he revamped the Buffalo defense "his way," which was near best in the league in 2014 under HC Doug Marrone and DC Jim Schwartz. That Buffalo defense was #4 overall that season, and the team went 9-7 that season...on the verge. The reason Marrone failed was that he had our favorite Buffalo Bills coach, Nathanial Hackett, as his OC. 🤮 Kyle Orton was the Buffalo starting QB along with EJ Manuel, and now you know the reason that young man never developed into even a backup QB. Anyway, Rex Ryan hired Greg Roman as his OC and Dennis Thurman as his DC. That 2014 Buffalo defense was stifling against the pass because they led the league in sacks with Mario Williams, Marcel Dareus, and Kyle Williams. Now, Rex Ryan implemented his defensive scheme, which had the D-linemen dropping into pass coverage and holding their area to contain the run so that the crappy Buffalo linebackers could rush the passer. From #4 overall to 15th, 19th. The point here is that Rex Ryan, a supposed defensive genius, came in as a new HC and revamped a defense to fit his scheme, even though he didn't have the players to utilize it properly. It might take a few seasons of drafting and obtaining the right players in free agency to make the proper transition to run his scheme. Ryan went 8-8, 7-9, and was fired. The Buffalo owners realized they had been lied to and moved on. Quote
T master Posted January 23 Posted January 23 I always wanted the Bills to keep Schwartz, while he was here the Bills had one of the absolute best defenses in the league every year but Rex due to his ego had to change something that was in no way broken and seeing those things are a huge part of being a really good HC . I actually want Schwartz as the next HC before Rex and I think then if given a really good OC that team could have made some really big waves with that roster ! I don't know who would be a great HC for this team but I hope he leaves his ego at home to a certain point and have input on both sides but allows those he hires and puts his trust in to do the job to actually do their job ... 1 Quote
Nihilarian Posted January 23 Posted January 23 16 minutes ago, T master said: I always wanted the Bills to keep Schwartz, while he was here the Bills had one of the absolute best defenses in the league every year but Rex due to his ego had to change something that was in no way broken and seeing those things are a huge part of being a really good HC . I actually want Schwartz as the next HC before Rex and I think then if given a really good OC that team could have made some really big waves with that roster ! I don't know who would be a great HC for this team but I hope he leaves his ego at home to a certain point and have input on both sides but allows those he hires and puts his trust in to do the job to actually do their job ... Think about this for a minute. If the Bills had hired Schwartz as HC, he could have hired the OC that Rex Ryan had hired, Greg Roman. The Bills had LeSean McCoy at RB and were the #1 rushing team in 2015. Between RB McCoy, RB Karlos Williams, and Tyrod Taylor at QB, who scrambled, they did alright on the ground. They did go 8-8, and the offense was better than the defense, as we all know why now. Alas, we don't know if Schwartz would have hired Roman as his OC or who he would have hired as his DC. He must have interviewed and given them his plan. clearly not good enough. Gotta sell it! Quote
Mr. WEO Posted January 23 Posted January 23 McD was got in the habit of just promoting disposable subordinates. No new voices in the building. Part of why he's gone. 2 1 Quote
dorquemada Posted January 23 Posted January 23 I think one of McD's fatal flaws is that he really didn't want strong coordinators. That's ego. I develop a lot of new people in my career. Many of them are now above me in the company, which some people can't stand, but it's not a zero sum game. McD didnt want anyone around that could replace him. Quote
Billzgobowlin Posted January 23 Posted January 23 5 minutes ago, dorquemada said: I think one of McD's fatal flaws is that he really didn't want strong coordinators. That's ego. I develop a lot of new people in my career. Many of them are now above me in the company, which some people can't stand, but it's not a zero sum game. McD didnt want anyone around that could replace him. I disagree with that. He fired quite a few Coordinators to get effective ones. The problem he had is his game philosophy lead to wins but not in the playoffs. Game control with a strong defense is great but ball controlling is not anything they were able to rely on their defense for. 3rd and long and not getting off the field and lack of run stuffing Quote
st pete gogolak Posted January 23 Author Posted January 23 There’s no question that after nine seasons the team was completely molded into the team that McDermott wanted. Bend but don’t break defense, soft zone, minimal blitzing, 4-2-5 as base defense. Ball control offense, run the ball, minimize risk to reduce turnovers. All with Josh Allen as his QB. The organization desperately needed an injection of new blood. I’m not sure I would have fired McDermott but change was necessary. As far as Beane, we now know who is making draft picks and free agent signings. Plus I would never want Pegula leading the search for a new HC. Quote
chris heff Posted January 23 Posted January 23 1 hour ago, Billzgobowlin said: I disagree with that. He fired quite a few Coordinators to get effective ones. The problem he had is his game philosophy lead to wins but not in the playoffs. Game control with a strong defense is great but ball controlling is not anything they were able to rely on their defense for. 3rd and long and not getting off the field and lack of run stuffing And I disagree with the first part of your statement. If we are discussing offensive and defensive coordinators the only one that McDermott fired was Dorsey and he really had no choice. Frazier took a leave of absence, which was a full season after “13 seconds”, why? What was he still doing there? Frankly both Frazier and McDermott should have been fired after “13 seconds”. Do you think Belichick would have allowed his DC to call that defense with 13 seconds left? As I’ve said before McDermott’s inability to adjust his defense to the personnel was his Achilles heel. Just look at a guy like Poona Ford, he couldn’t get on the field with the Bills, yet he is having a pretty good season with the Rams. How long were we going to watch teams consistently convert 3rd and long? How often were we going to watch McDermott’s defense get gashed by good running backs? How many times did we have to watch Allen and the offense take the lead only to see the defense give it back? Enough was enough, it had to change and McDermott was the obvious choice. I don’t care about the press conference, I don’t care if Coleman was thrown under a bus. Hire an offensive head coach and a seasoned defensive coordinator. Quote
dorquemada Posted January 23 Posted January 23 2 hours ago, Billzgobowlin said: I disagree with that. He fired quite a few Coordinators to get effective ones. The problem he had is his game philosophy lead to wins but not in the playoffs. Game control with a strong defense is great but ball controlling is not anything they were able to rely on their defense for. 3rd and long and not getting off the field and lack of run stuffing Not asking sarcastically, I'm just too lazy to look it up. How many of McD's ex-coordinators got lateral or better jobs post-Bills? Dogballs is the obvious one but none other are jumping out at me Quote
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