Beane debate has gone too far

[Since1981]

In just one hour, Beane and Terry changed how the world sees this team and community — from a lovable, jinxed family to two loudmouthed guys with egos too big to keep quiet, and casting the blame entirely on McD.

 

ps. I was not a fan of McClappy but that was a shlt show. 

Edited January 23 by Since1981

[Mikie2times]

9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

See I don't agree. I think the reason we kept losing those tight games was because in crunch time we didn't have enough of those real difference makers to make a play. It felt like every time it had to be Josh. Elite difference makers are the difference for me in those close playoff games. 

 

The 2021 team, yep. Probably talented enough. The 2020 team too, they were arguably just a bit naive. I have always felt we are a difference maker or too short since then. Still do. Unless they solve that I worry the next Head Coach will end up banging his head against the same wall.

Except we got a bad spot on the Kincaid screen and QB sneak. Then Kincaid dropped the 4th down pass. When healthy, I don't think anybody is saying Kincaid is a guy that isn't good enough. Then this year Allen himself had a below average game. A fluke fumble. A guy beating our LT who nobody would consider replacing. Our Pro Bowl RB fumbling the ball. If you want to argue that with better talent the margin of error would have been greater, well sure and who doesn't want that?  Not that hard to turn around and say if the philosophy itself wasn't such a cesspool the margin for error would be greater as well.

 

The question is not is this such a dominant roster that it can avoid losing despite massive failure. It's just is this a Super Bowl capable roster? You conceded it was one in the past. Well, Beane was part of that. You don't seem willing to concede that it is now. Which I tend to agree with when you go over position by position. Yet, with fractional improvement from our best players on plays that additional talent wouldn't have impacted we would have made the Super Bowl. With marginally better performance defensively we would have made the Super Bowl. All of us want to see the margin for error in that journey grow, but for anybody to hunker down that this group or previous iterations just couldn't have got it done, that is was always doomed, I just don't know how people are dunking so emphatically on the notion. It's just not logical with how these games played out and how close the margin was.   

[Walking Tall]

People forget starting QB’s, all of your o-line to include tight ends and runnings back are part of your roster. The Bills rate excellent, IMO, at all those positions.

[Winnebago Man]

I suppose I am willing to be open-minded and see how this offseason goes. Admittedly, I have concerns, but there was a particular element from the press conference yesterday that resonated with me. 

 

When Pegula interjected about Keon Coleman being selected by the coaching staff while not being at the top of Beane's draft board, I wondered whether that was just a PR move/distancing language or whether there really is something to it. 

 

Whenever my Dad and I discuss the Bills and their inability to find talent in the early rounds, we would often joke that there were usually a couple of gems uncovered in the later rounds -- almost as though there was another individual responsible for the later picks. For example, in the 2022 Draft, Kaiir Elam was a notable bust, but the later rounds provided Kahlil Shakir, Christian Benford, and Baylon Spector (who, while much-maligned, has had a good career for a 7th Round Pick). The 2024 Draft may have started with Keon Coleman (hasn't worked out), but saw us add Ray Davis, SVPG, and Tylan Grable in the later rounds. This past year, Deone Walker and Jackson Hawes look like absolute gems, Jordan Hancock seems to be player (assuming he makes some strides next season), and Dorian Strong looked good in what limited time he saw prior to his unfortunate injury.

 

I have been wondering to what degree McDermott had influence over the players selected in the early rounds. The talent found in the later rounds has been notable and impactful. It would be a comfort to believe that McDermott influenced the early picks that did not pan out while Beane found value in the later rounds. 

 

Perhaps that is my optimistic view. The truth is, we will never quite know the degree to which McDermott and Beane are responsible for our draft day successes and failures... But, I am willing to see how this offseason plays out -- particularly free agency, and potential trades, and the draft -- before I am prepared to judge and condemn.

 

[NORWOODS FOOT]

Brandon Beane is good, not great. Beane and McDermott together were good, not great. Why? Always in the playoffs but never winning a championship. This feels like objective reality to me.

 

Isn’t this the reason that Josh Allen was weeping after the Denver game? Isn’t this why Pegula decided to make a change?

 

Will the next coach be skilled enough to get this team to the Super Bowl? Will he have to “overcome” Beane’s drafting?  Or was it the other way around? Was McDermotts coaching that bad? 
 

Who knows…

 

All I know is that this duo - with Josh Allen - has not been able to win a championship.
 

If not winning a championship is a problem (it is to me) then we kept half of the problem. 

 

Wish we would have wiped the slate clean and given it another shot with a new group.
 

Let’s see what happens. Hope I’m wrong.

 

Is this take “too far”? Why? It feels reasonable to me. But I guess perception is reality.

 

Edited January 23 by NORWOODS FOOT

[<bills4life>]

17 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

In just one hour, Beane and Terry changed how the world sees this team and community — from a lovable, jinxed family to two loudmouthed guys with egos too big to keep quiet, and casting the blame entirely on McD.

 

ps. I was not a fan of McClappy but that was a shlt show. 

But people and the media are a fickle bunch.  As time progresses this too shall pass. Especially if they hire the right coach. 

[Krakensabres]

20 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

In just one hour, Beane and Terry changed how the world sees this team and community — from a lovable, jinxed family to two loudmouthed guys with egos too big to keep quiet, and casting the blame entirely on McD.

 

ps. I was not a fan of McClappy but that was a shlt show. 

Segments of the local media had decided this narrative before that press conference even took place and how the “ botched “ the firing etc, the press conference itself made it worse because obviously Terry has no social filter and that’s why he shouldn’t do press conferences ever! But, a lot of the outrage was already started in magnified by a lot of of the radio guys that fed into everything else and the narrative going nationally.

 

this whole story is nothing bigger, nothing is going to change how the franchise has looked at once the season starts. If they do great, then they’ll look like geniuses if they don’t, then they’ll be criticized, that was going to happen either way anyway anyways, even if they kept McDermott.

15 minutes ago, Winnebago Man said:

I suppose I am willing to be open-minded and see how this offseason goes. Admittedly, I have concerns, but there was a particular element from the press conference yesterday that resonated with me. 

 

When Pegula interjected about Keon Coleman being selected by the coaching staff while not being at the top of Beane's draft board, I wondered whether that was just a PR move/distancing language or whether there really is something to it. 

 

Whenever my Dad and I discuss the Bills and their inability to find talent in the early rounds, we would often joke that there were usually a couple of gems uncovered in the later rounds -- almost as though there was another individual responsible for the later picks. For example, in the 2022 Draft, Kaiir Elam was a notable bust, but the later rounds provided Kahlil Shakir, Christian Benford, and Baylon Spector (who, while much-maligned, has had a good career for a 7th Round Pick). The 2024 Draft may have started with Keon Coleman (hasn't worked out), but saw us add Ray Davis, SVPG, and Tylan Grable in the later rounds. This past year, Deone Walker and Jackson Hawes look like absolute gems, Jordan Hancock seems to be player (assuming he makes some strides next season), and Dorian Strong looked good in what limited time he saw prior to his unfortunate injury.

 

I have been wondering to what degree McDermott had influence over the players selected in the early rounds. The talent found in the later rounds has been notable and impactful. It would be a comfort to believe that McDermott influenced the early picks that did not pan out while Beane found value in the later rounds. 

 

Perhaps that is my optimistic view. The truth is, we will never quite know the degree to which McDermott and Beane are responsible for our draft day successes and failures... But, I am willing to see how this offseason plays out -- particularly free agency, and potential trades, and the draft -- before I am prepared to judge and condemn.

 

People need to stop thinking that the Keon Coleman stuff is some pre-planned PR stunt… Did you see that owner there? He’s essentially a fan that has no filter about his opinion except he happens to be standing in the draft room and owning the team. He’s not some great football architect or savvy manager type… People are giving him way too much credit if they think he is savvy enough to pre-create something like that. It’s actually the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard.

[Governor]

28 minutes ago, Since1981 said:

In just one hour, Beane and Terry changed how the world sees this team and community — from a lovable, jinxed family to two loudmouthed guys with egos too big to keep quiet, and casting the blame entirely on McD.

 

ps. I was not a fan of McClappy but that was a shlt show. 

I’m not sure why you would care how the world view you or the team. No one outside of Buffalo cares about the owner, or inner workings of the Buffalo Bills. They just like to poke us with a stick because they’re bored right now. They don’t have anything else to talk about and our fanbase is nothing but drama. I mean, it’s fun!

Edited January 23 by Governor

[Buffalo ill]

Depending on the poster's (or sports talking head) agenda, the current roster or coaching was...

 

Good enough to almost win a divisional game vs the #1 seed in spite of the two best offensive players committing 5 turnovers.

 

Lucky McDermott was able to brilliantly scheme the terrible roster as far into the post season as he did.

 

Lucky Allen carried the team, in spite of McDermott, until he (josh) crapped himself in the divisional round.

 

I'm sure I'm missing other takes.

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Last year, after the AFC Championship, I looked at the roster and said I did not think it was good enough for those moments. That opinion existed well before Beane bashing was a thing. At the time, you could not question anything about ole big baller. There was a sense that certain people walked on water, and roster criticism was off limits. Now fast forward and it is interesting to watch how the conversation has shifted almost entirely away from McDermott and fully onto Beane.

 

The core question everyone keeps asking is whether this is a Super Bowl roster. Earlier in the year, my answer was no, because I viewed that question through the lens of dominance. Could we have added pieces to raise the ceiling, blow teams out, and realistically chase the one seed. That was the frustration. But when you look at the actual AFC landscape right now, it gets harder to argue that this team is not capable.

 

The two teams representing the AFC in Denver and New England. We should have beat Denver convincingly. We did beat New England. Both games on the road. It is hard for me to say with confidence that we are not better than both of those teams. Are we built to run away with the conference. No. Are we capable of winning it with who we have. I think the answer is yes.

 

Listening to Beane talk about the offensive vision helped contextualize some of the decisions. Defenses are living in shell coverage. Running games and heavy personnel are becoming more valuable. Tight ends matter more. We leaned into that shift earlier than most teams. That deserves some credit, even if certain decisions can still be debated.

 

There is also a real philosophical tension between the offense and defense. Offensively, the vision leans toward size, physicality, and multiplicity. Defensively, we continue to prioritize lighter, faster, penetrating players. It feels like it’s a mistake to say lets build an offense that can take advantage of these recent NFL trends but a defense that is vulnerable to them. That is what we have been stuck in with the marriage to this McD led system.  I do think Beane see's that, he has to see it, and I don't think his long term vision is undersized defensive linemen or blocking wide receivers. I think he wants speed on the outside and size up front. Whether that alignment fully materializes remains to be seen.

 

We have an excellent offensive line. Very good running backs. A strong tight end room. Outside of wide receiver, the offense is talented. Defensively, my confidence in McDermott’s scheme is about as low as it gets, so it’s really difficult to understand what talent we have on that side of the ball.  Seeing players like Edmunds and Ford significantly outperform how they played here hits home and it me it's more than possible that some of this defensive roster is in fact far better than they have performed thus far. 

 

There are a lot of bad general managers in this league. I am not ready to assume Beane is one of them. I think the next year or two will tell us far more than reactionary takes right now. Wanting accountability is fair. Declaring the franchise is headed in the wrong direction because we did not fire everyone is a leap I am not comfortable making.

 

1. Slowing the game down is maddening. The only way im sorry mad at Beane is for going along with it. We own a point merchant, lean into it, my god.

 

1a. WE have a Drag Car. WE get to pick the track. And consciously picked a tight, dirt track! Lol stupid 

 

2. All these "busts" on defense... i get we dont want dumb players. Why are we running an defense that requires a damn McD associates degree to even see the field. Piss off.

 

Wait till we get the right hire (never been more confident) in here, and these players are allowed to play! 

 

Its going to be a new system, theyre not all going to make it. But were sitting on a completely unrefined oil field. WE DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT WE HAVE! Not 1 DLineman has been developed.

 

I expect it to feel like getting 3 or 4 new mini draft picks on the D. 

 

The fact so many normies are pissed off is a micro indicator. Remember Booboo foot and Darby getting sent of? "wErE sO sTuPiD" LOL buckle up folks, Phil Jackson is on the way

[Mikie2times]

2 minutes ago, BillsShredder83 said:

 

1. Slowing the game down is maddening. The only way im sorry mad at Beane is for going along with it. We own a point merchant, lean into it, my god.

 

1a. WE have a Drag Car. WE get to pick the track. And consciously picked a tight, dirt track! Lol stupid 

 

2. All these "busts" on defense... i get we dont want dumb players. Why are we running an defense that requires a damn McD associates degree to even see the field. Piss off.

 

Wait till we get the right hire (never been more confident) in here, and these players are allowed to play! 

 

Its going to be a new system, theyre not all going to make it. But were sitting on a completely unrefined oil field. WE DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT WE HAVE! Not 1 DLineman has been developed.

 

I expect it to feel like getting 3 or 4 new mini draft picks on the D. 

 

The fact so many normies are pissed off is a micro indicator. Remember Booboo foot and Darby getting sent of? "wErE sO sTuPiD" LOL buckle up folks, Phil Jackson is on the way

You realize this isn't 2014 right? 

[Einstein]

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

 

 

We have an excellent offensive line.

 

Come again?

 

I don’t understand why people think our offensive line is so great.

[SoonerBillsFan]

1 hour ago, VW82 said:

Great point about the tension between offensive and defensive philosophies. I'd say there are some likely takeaways. 

 

1. Offense probably isn't going to change much, because...

2. Beane will hire a coach who shares our philosophy of running the ball, playing through TEs, etc.

3. Defense is likely the side that changes.

 

Fans won't be excited about that because of what it likely means for (continued lack of) investment at WR. Also, I suspect the transition away from Taron will coincide with changes in the LBer group.  

That was McDermott’s philosophy,  not "The Bills".

 

Any nee HC is going to want wide receivers, amd throw the damn ball with Allen

 

Our HC and OC must shape the offensive scheme around Allen.  That definitely includes Cook running and catching.

 

I hope we see numbers from Josh put up in 2020 in the regular

 

 

[Buffalo Ballin]

We have a good O-line because Josh Allen is not seriously injured...yet. And James Cook led the league in rush yards. We don't get those stats without a good o-line. Ask Joe Burrow's Cincinnati Bengals and Justin Herbert's Chargers what a bad o-line is. And we can ask Mahomes' Chiefs what that's all about.

 

Beane knows that he has to protect Josh Allen and said that is his number one priority, which we should be all on board.

 

After 13 Seconds, we lost tons of confidence with McDermott. After Cincinnati Bengals playoff game, yeah, ALL confidence lost. That all came down to coaching, especially in the 4th quarter, and that was on McDermott.

 

Defense went into the trash.

 

 

[Mikie2times]

5 minutes ago, SoonerBillsFan said:

That was McDermott’s philosophy,  not "The Bills".

 

Any nee HC is going to want wide receivers, amd throw the damn ball with Allen

 

Our HC and OC must shape the offensive scheme around Allen.  That definitely includes Cook running and catching.

 

I hope we see numbers from Josh put up in 2020 in the regular

 

 

I think running the ball, winning in the trenches, is also very much Beane. That dates back to Gettleman who Beane learned a lot from. Not only does it clearly link to one of his mentors, he says it a lot, and his actions show it's what he believes. That said, I'm not convinced  he also doesn't believe in a more diverse passing offense. We obviously want Allen to have the ball as much as possible. We just don't want to become the Chiefs effectively forgetting the league trends are towards a power run game based on the defenses adjusting to more prolific passing eras of the past. 

[Ga boy]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

Beane is not a bad GM. McDermott is not a bad coach. But the are they good enough argument applies to both.

 

I still don't think this is a good enough roster to win a Superbowl. But in this AFC field could it have been good enough to get there? Possibly. Still lacks top end talent for me. 

 

But I agree some of the nature of the criticism has gone too far and been too personal. Questioning his integrity is too far IMO. 

Beane will keep Milano and Shaq, Bishop and Max obviously.  Use Ed to move up in draft to get an additional 3rd.  Draft speed WR in first, and a DE and LB in 2nd and 3rd.  Keep the OL, may lose Edwards.  I think we’ll be better next year.

[jkeerie]

2 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

I think running the ball, winning in the trenches, is also very much Beane. That dates back to Gettleman who Beane learned a lot from. Not only does it clearly link to one of his mentors, he says it a lot, and his actions show it's what he believes. That said, I'm not convinced  he also doesn't believe in a more diverse passing offense. We obviously want Allen to have the ball as much as possible. We just don't want to become the Chiefs effectively forgetting the league trends are towards a power run game based on the defenses adjusting to more prolific passing eras of the past. 

I don't think you have to abandon one for the other.  Beane got us Brown, Beasley, Diggs, Davis etc and tried with RBs with Singletary and Moss, who weren't difference makers.  Now that we have Cook, he can bring in some passing weapons.  I think the move to jags to emphasize blocking was more a McD emphasis.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

2 hours ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Last year, after the AFC Championship, I looked at the roster and said I did not think it was good enough for those moments. That opinion existed well before Beane bashing was a thing. At the time, you could not question anything about ole big baller. There was a sense that certain people walked on water, and roster criticism was off limits. Now fast forward and it is interesting to watch how the conversation has shifted almost entirely away from McDermott and fully onto Beane.

 

The core question everyone keeps asking is whether this is a Super Bowl roster. Earlier in the year, my answer was no, because I viewed that question through the lens of dominance. Could we have added pieces to raise the ceiling, blow teams out, and realistically chase the one seed. That was the frustration. But when you look at the actual AFC landscape right now, it gets harder to argue that this team is not capable.

 

The two teams representing the AFC in Denver and New England. We should have beat Denver convincingly. We did beat New England. Both games on the road. It is hard for me to say with confidence that we are not better than both of those teams. Are we built to run away with the conference. No. Are we capable of winning it with who we have. I think the answer is yes.

 

Listening to Beane talk about the offensive vision helped contextualize some of the decisions. Defenses are living in shell coverage. Running games and heavy personnel are becoming more valuable. Tight ends matter more. We leaned into that shift earlier than most teams. That deserves some credit, even if certain decisions can still be debated.

 

There is also a real philosophical tension between the offense and defense. Offensively, the vision leans toward size, physicality, and multiplicity. Defensively, we continue to prioritize lighter, faster, penetrating players. It feels like it’s a mistake to say lets build an offense that can take advantage of these recent NFL trends but a defense that is vulnerable to them. That is what we have been stuck in with the marriage to this McD led system.  I do think Beane see's that, he has to see it, and I don't think his long term vision is undersized defensive linemen or blocking wide receivers. I think he wants speed on the outside and size up front. Whether that alignment fully materializes remains to be seen.

 

We have an excellent offensive line. Very good running backs. A strong tight end room. Outside of wide receiver, the offense is talented. Defensively, my confidence in McDermott’s scheme is about as low as it gets, so it’s really difficult to understand what talent we have on that side of the ball.  Seeing players like Edmunds and Ford significantly outperform how they played here hits home and it me it's more than possible that some of this defensive roster is in fact far better than they have performed thus far. 

 

There are a lot of bad general managers in this league. I am not ready to assume Beane is one of them. I think the next year or two will tell us far more than reactionary takes right now. Wanting accountability is fair. Declaring the franchise is headed in the wrong direction because we did not fire everyone is a leap I am not comfortable making.

 

Bishop

Benford

Walker

Oliver if he can stay healthy and at reworked lower contract

 

Think the following will be good give them another year

Hairston

Hancock

 

Maybe??

Sanders

 

 

10 minutes ago, Ga boy said:

Beane will keep Milano and Shaq, Bishop and Max obviously.  Use Ed to move up in draft to get an additional 3rd.  Draft speed WR in first, and a DE and LB in 2nd and 3rd.  Keep the OL, may lose Edwards.  I think we’ll be better next year.

 

Not so sure Beane will want Milano back unless at a much lower backup type salary since he redid his contract to make him a FA after this year.  Thompson may want to follow McD, though number of job openings is dwindling so maybe McD sits out a year, then Thompson may be back

 

I'd rather see them keep Edwards and let McGovern go.  

Edited January 23 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[HappyDays]

I'll add one other reason I'm comfortable keeping Beane while firing McDermott - I think that evaluating potential GMs is a lot murkier than evaluating potential head coaches. With coaches there is some sort of proof of concept. You know what skill sets are successful and there is a track record you can follow. With GMs I wouldn't even know where to begin to look. You're really just betting on someone that has been part of another successful front office and hoping they can scout talent, write contracts, and build relationships with agents and players. Beane can do the executive functions of the job with the best of them which I'm guessing is why Pegula retained him. I'm interested to see what the scouting piece of his job looks like with new voices on the coaching staff.

 

I'm not ready to say my concerns with him have evaporated but I'm at least intrigued to see what it looks like in a new situation, and ultimately I'm happy that we have some kind of continuity in the building as we enter the next chapter. Blowing the whole thing up may have been a step too far for a team that is right on the doorstep of the Super Bowl, and I probably didn't give that reasoning enough credit when I originally wanted everybody fired.

 

Edited January 23 by HappyDays

[Buffalo Boy]

1 hour ago, Since1981 said:

In just one hour, Beane and Terry changed how the world sees this team and community — from a lovable, jinxed family to two loudmouthed guys with egos too big to keep quiet, and casting the blame entirely on McD.

 

ps. I was not a fan of McClappy but that was a shlt show. 

   I love that Pegs showed some anger, impatience and frustration. I’m happy he snapped about the screw job on that manufactured Bills loss call.

   Our GM can be a prick sometimes…. And????

   The narrative that that was a disaster of a presser, I disagree. 
   They sounded to me like a couple of guys who were PISSED we haven’t won or even made a SB yet. That is what makes me empathize with them the most.