Beane debate has gone too far

[Mikie2times]

 

Last year, after the AFC Championship, I looked at the roster and said I did not think it was good enough for those moments. That opinion existed well before Beane bashing was a thing. At the time, you could not question anything about ole big baller. There was a sense that certain people walked on water, and roster criticism was off limits. Now fast forward and it is interesting to watch how the conversation has shifted almost entirely away from McDermott and fully onto Beane.

 

The core question everyone keeps asking is whether this is a Super Bowl roster. Earlier in the year, my answer was no, because I viewed that question through the lens of dominance. Could we have added pieces to raise the ceiling, blow teams out, and realistically chase the one seed. That was the frustration. But when you look at the actual AFC landscape right now, it gets harder to argue that this team is not capable.

 

The two teams representing the AFC in Denver and New England. We should have beat Denver convincingly. We did beat New England. Both games on the road. It is hard for me to say with confidence that we are not better than both of those teams. Are we built to run away with the conference. No. Are we capable of winning it with who we have. I think the answer is yes.

 

Listening to Beane talk about the offensive vision helped contextualize some of the decisions. Defenses are living in shell coverage. Running games and heavy personnel are becoming more valuable. Tight ends matter more. We leaned into that shift earlier than most teams. That deserves some credit, even if certain decisions can still be debated.

 

There is also a real philosophical tension between the offense and defense. Offensively, the vision leans toward size, physicality, and multiplicity. Defensively, we continue to prioritize lighter, faster, penetrating players. It feels like it’s a mistake to say lets build an offense that can take advantage of these recent NFL trends but a defense that is vulnerable to them. That is what we have been stuck in with the marriage to this McD led system.  I do think Beane see's that, he has to see it, and I don't think his long term vision is undersized defensive linemen or blocking wide receivers. I think he wants speed on the outside and size up front. Whether that alignment fully materializes remains to be seen.

 

We have an excellent offensive line. Very good running backs. A strong tight end room. Outside of wide receiver, the offense is talented. Defensively, my confidence in McDermott’s scheme is about as low as it gets, so it’s really difficult to understand what talent we have on that side of the ball.  Seeing players like Edmunds and Ford significantly outperform how they played here hits home and it me it's more than possible that some of this defensive roster is in fact far better than they have performed thus far. 

 

There are a lot of bad general managers in this league. I am not ready to assume Beane is one of them. I think the next year or two will tell us far more than reactionary takes right now. Wanting accountability is fair. Declaring the franchise is headed in the wrong direction because we did not fire everyone is a leap I am not comfortable making.

Edited January 23 by Mikie2times

[WotAGuy]

I, for one, will continue to assassinate him. It’s the American way. 

[ToGoGo]

Where are all the calm people? Am I the only one? Anybody else here with a brain that remembers more than the last 3 months. 

[hondo in seattle]

I hope he proves me wrong, but I have very little faith in Beane.  

 

I don't expect him to build a good roster.  I don't expect him to pick a good HC.  I don't expect him to bring a Lombardi to Buffalo.

But I really, really hope I'm wrong.  

[bmur66]

I love to see the Bills offense play the Bills defense for real. How would that go?

[Dinoman]

There have simply been too many whiffs in the draft and FA recently to keep us truly competitive.

 

the first 3 picks in the last two years, only guy who plays is Bishop.  
 

That’s hard to win with. 

[Mikie2times]

Just now, Dinoman said:

There have simply been too many whiffs in the draft and FA recently to keep us truly competitive.

 

the first 3 picks in the last two years, only guy who plays is Bishop.  
 

That’s hard to win with. 

The first build was damn near brilliant. Even as a critic I have given him that. The second hasn't been nearly as strong.  We need to make some additions in key areas. We need to become unified in our approach. But with that, most people will concede we are better than Denver and New England. If that is the case, it makes the argument that this isn't a Super Bowl roster a little less effective. 

[GunnerBill]

Beane is not a bad GM. McDermott is not a bad coach. But the are they good enough argument applies to both.

 

I still don't think this is a good enough roster to win a Superbowl. But in this AFC field could it have been good enough to get there? Possibly. Still lacks top end talent for me. 

 

But I agree some of the nature of the criticism has gone too far and been too personal. Questioning his integrity is too far IMO. 

[BillsPride12]

2 minutes ago, Dinoman said:

There have simply been too many whiffs in the draft and FA recently to keep us truly competitive.

 

the first 3 picks in the last two years, only guy who plays is Bishop.  
 

That’s hard to win with. 

I agree with the sentiment this still isn't a true Super Bowl roster, this year it's a tough call because the AFC was so weak that we probably could have gotten to the Super Bowl but the more I've read and listened to this week I am fully convinced McDermott had his handprints all over personnel decisions. The camp that is pissed he got fired and blaming the roster all on Beane seem to be omitting this fact from their arguments 

[CoudyBills]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

The first build was damn near brilliant. Even as a critic I have given him that. The second hasn't been nearly as strong.  We need to make some additions in key areas. We need to become unified in our approach. But with that, most people will concede we are better than Denver and New England. If that is the case, it makes the argument that this isn't a Super Bowl roster a little less effective. 

The Bills have a better quarterback, but top to bottom , their roster is not better.  

1 minute ago, BillsPride12 said:

I agree with the sentiment this still isn't a true Super Bowl roster, this year it's a tough call because the AFC was so weak that we probably could have gotten to the Super Bowl but the more I've read and listened to this week I am fully convinced McDermott had his handprints all over personnel decisions. The camp that is pissed he got fired and blaming the roster all on Beane seem to be omitting this fact from their arguments 

The source of the fact being the two people inside the organization?  Pretty easy to blame the other guy when they are gone.  I guess time will tell.  

[MRW]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

Beane is not a bad GM. McDermott is not a bad coach. But the are they good enough argument applies to both.

 

I still don't think this is a good enough roster to win a Superbowl. But in this AFC field could it have been good enough to get there? Possibly. Still lacks top end talent for me. 

 

But I agree some of the nature of the criticism has gone too far and been too personal. Questioning his integrity is too far IMO. 

 

Yeah, some of the stuff I've been reading has almost driven me to go overboard in the opposite direction, there is a very weird conspiratorial bent to a lot of it. I wouldn't have been shedding tears if Beane had been let go, but with a little thought the practical reasons and timing make a decent case for keeping him even if you think you could do better at GM. I know I certainly would not feel better with Pegula trying to hit the ground running trying to select a GM and HC starting this late in the cycle.

[Alphadawg7]

33 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Last year, after the AFC Championship, I looked at the roster and said I did not think it was good enough for those moments. That opinion existed well before Beane bashing was a thing. At the time, you could not question anything about ole big baller. There was a sense that certain people walked on water, and roster criticism was off limits. Now fast forward and it is interesting to watch how the conversation has shifted almost entirely away from McDermott and fully onto Beane.

 

The core question everyone keeps asking is whether this is a Super Bowl roster. Earlier in the year, my answer was no, because I viewed that question through the lens of dominance. Could we have added pieces to raise the ceiling, blow teams out, and realistically chase the one seed. That was the frustration. But when you look at the actual AFC landscape right now, it gets harder to argue that this team is not capable.

 

The two teams representing the AFC in Denver and New England. We should have beat Denver convincingly. We did beat New England. Both games on the road. It is hard for me to say with confidence that we are not better than both of those teams. Are we built to run away with the conference. No. Are we capable of winning it with who we have. I think the answer is yes.

 

Listening to Beane talk about the offensive vision helped contextualize some of the decisions. Defenses are living in shell coverage. Running games and heavy personnel are becoming more valuable. Tight ends matter more. We leaned into that shift earlier than most teams. That deserves some credit, even if certain decisions can still be debated.

 

There is also a real philosophical tension between the offense and defense. Offensively, the vision leans toward size, physicality, and multiplicity. Defensively, we continue to prioritize lighter, faster, penetrating players. It feels like it’s a mistake to say lets build an offense that can take advantage of these recent NFL trends but a defense that is vulnerable to them. That is what we have been stuck in with the marriage to this McD led system.  I do think Beane see's that, he has to see it, and I don't think his long term vision is undersized defensive linemen or blocking wide receivers. I think he wants speed on the outside and size up front. Whether that alignment fully materializes remains to be seen.

 

We have an excellent offensive line. Very good running backs. A strong tight end room. Outside of wide receiver, the offense is talented. Defensively, my confidence in McDermott’s scheme is about as low as it gets, so it’s really difficult to understand what talent we have on that side of the ball.  Seeing players like Edmunds and Ford significantly outperform how they played here hits home and it me it's more than possible that some of this defensive roster is in fact far better than they have performed thus far. 

 

There are a lot of bad general managers in this league. I am not ready to assume Beane is one of them. I think the next year or two will tell us far more than reactionary takes right now. Wanting accountability is fair. Declaring the franchise is headed in the wrong direction because we did not fire everyone is a leap I am not comfortable making.

 

Someone pin this.  Well done, especially the bolded is pretty spot on and important

[BillsPride12]

7 minutes ago, CoudyBills said:

The Bills have a better quarterback, but top to bottom , their roster is not better.  

The source of the fact being the two people inside the organization?  Pretty easy to blame the other guy when they are gone.  I guess time will tell.  

I mean is it really that shocking to to think that in his tenure here McDermott would have a big say in the types of players he wanted to have for his system? These guys both reported to Pegula. Say what you will about Pegs but he knew who was making the decisions on what. If it was really Beane alone blowing draft picks left and right why would he have chosen him as the one to keep?

[Alphadawg7]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Beane is not a bad GM. McDermott is not a bad coach. But the are they good enough argument applies to both.

 

I still don't think this is a good enough roster to win a Superbowl. But in this AFC field could it have been good enough to get there? Possibly. Still lacks top end talent for me. 

 

But I agree some of the nature of the criticism has gone too far and been too personal. Questioning his integrity is too far IMO. 

 

Was the team good enough the 13 seconds year?  Pretty much most believe yes, I certainly do.

 

Was the team good enough this year?  Obviously, I mean we lost by 3 in a game our two elite players accounted for 5 turnovers, one of which was a screw job by the refs and we had another TD taken away on an obvious PI that wasn't called on a Cooks TD throw.  

 

Was the team good enough last year?  Obviously, we again lost by 3 in a game the refs flipped the score by 11-15 points when we were up by 1 in the middle of the 4th and they twice took away a first down on the same series (on 2nd down when Knox got the fist down initially and again on 4th down when Allen got it on the push).  We were already in scoring position, up 1, about to have a first down and likely get a FG or a TD to increase the lead. Instead KC gets ball back with momentum and gets a TD and 2 point conversion for us to now be down 7.  That is an 11-15 point swing in the 4th of a game we lost by 3 to go to the SB.  

 

What about 2023?  We are a Josh Allen toe away from the go ahead TD to get past KC.  Dion gets pushed into Allen just barely stepping on his toe while throwing causing him to short it to a wide open Shakir for a TD.  

 

Bengals year is a hard read, whole team didnt show up. 

 

So for me, this team has been a championship capable team most years of the Allen prime years IMHO.  But we didn't get it done.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

Was the team good enough the 13 seconds year?  Pretty much most believe yes, I certainly do.

 

Was the team good enough this year?  Obviously, I mean we lost by 3 in a game our two elite players accounted for 5 turnovers, one of which was a screw job by the refs and we had another TD taken away on an obvious PI that wasn't called on a Cooks TD throw.  

 

Was the team good enough last year?  Obviously, we again lost by 3 in a game the refs flipped the score by 11-15 points when we were up by 1 in the middle of the 4th and they twice took away a first down on the same series (on 2nd down when Knox got the fist down initially and again on 4th down when Allen got it on the push).  We were already in scoring position, up 1, about to have a first down and likely get a FG or a TD to increase the lead. Instead KC gets ball back with momentum and gets a TD and 2 point conversion for us to now be down 7.  That is an 11-15 point swing in the 4th of a game we lost by 3 to go to the SB.  

 

What about 2023?  We are a Josh Allen toe away from the go ahead TD to get past KC.  Dion gets pushed into Allen just barely stepping on his toe while throwing causing him to short it to a wide open Shakir for a TD.  

 

Bengals year is a hard read, whole team didnt show up. 

 

So for me, this team has been a championship capable team most years of the Allen prime years IMHO.  But we didn't get it done.

 

See I don't agree. I think the reason we kept losing those tight games was because in crunch time we didn't have enough of those real difference makers to make a play. It felt like every time it had to be Josh. Elite difference makers are the difference for me in those close playoff games. 

 

The 2021 team, yep. Probably talented enough. The 2020 team too, they were arguably just a bit naive. I have always felt we are a difference maker or too short since then. Still do. Unless they solve that I worry the next Head Coach will end up banging his head against the same wall.

[Billz4ever]

39 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

 

Last year, after the AFC Championship, I looked at the roster and said I did not think it was good enough for those moments. That opinion existed well before Beane bashing was a thing. At the time, you could not question anything about ole big baller. There was a sense that certain people walked on water, and roster criticism was off limits. Now fast forward and it is interesting to watch how the conversation has shifted almost entirely away from McDermott and fully onto Beane.

 

The core question everyone keeps asking is whether this is a Super Bowl roster. Earlier in the year, my answer was no, because I viewed that question through the lens of dominance. Could we have added pieces to raise the ceiling, blow teams out, and realistically chase the one seed. That was the frustration. But when you look at the actual AFC landscape right now, it gets harder to argue that this team is not capable.

 

The two teams representing the AFC in Denver and New England. We should have beat Denver convincingly. We did beat New England. Both games on the road. It is hard for me to say with confidence that we are not better than both of those teams. Are we built to run away with the conference. No. Are we capable of winning it with who we have. I think the answer is yes.

 

Listening to Beane talk about the offensive vision helped contextualize some of the decisions. Defenses are living in shell coverage. Running games and heavy personnel are becoming more valuable. Tight ends matter more. We leaned into that shift earlier than most teams. That deserves some credit, even if certain decisions can still be debated.

 

There is also a real philosophical tension between the offense and defense. Offensively, the vision leans toward size, physicality, and multiplicity. Defensively, we continue to prioritize lighter, faster, penetrating players. It feels like it’s a mistake to say lets build an offense that can take advantage of these recent NFL trends but a defense that is vulnerable to them. That is what we have been stuck in with the marriage to this McD led system.  I do think Beane see's that, he has to see it, and I don't think his long term vision is undersized defensive linemen or blocking wide receivers. I think he wants speed on the outside and size up front. Whether that alignment fully materializes remains to be seen.

 

We have an excellent offensive line. Very good running backs. A strong tight end room. Outside of wide receiver, the offense is talented. Defensively, my confidence in McDermott’s scheme is about as low as it gets, so it’s really difficult to understand what talent we have on that side of the ball.  Seeing players like Edmunds and Ford significantly outperform how they played here hits home and it me it's more than possible that some of this defensive roster is in fact far better than they have performed thus far. 

 

There are a lot of bad general managers in this league. I am not ready to assume Beane is one of them. I think the next year or two will tell us far more than reactionary takes right now. Wanting accountability is fair. Declaring the franchise is headed in the wrong direction because we did not fire everyone is a leap I am not comfortable making.

I was one that was of the opinion that if a change was going to be made, both needed to go.

 

Having said that, the owner made a decision and now we have to move on.  Beane isn't going anywhere and it's now counterproductive to keep rehashing what did and didn't happen on Monday. 

 

Now, I think it's best to support Beane and hope he does a fantastic job because we need him be one of the best GMs in the league going forward.  The future of this franchise depends on that happening. 

 

The Bills will go as Brandon Beane goes.  

[Dablitzkrieg]

35 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

Where are all the calm people? Am I the only one? Anybody else here with a brain that remembers more than the last 3 months. 

I literally cant remember 

Yesterday 🤣

[VW82]

Great point about the tension between offensive and defensive philosophies. I'd say there are some likely takeaways. 

 

1. Offense probably isn't going to change much, because...

2. Beane will hire a coach who shares our philosophy of running the ball, playing through TEs, etc.

3. Defense is likely the side that changes.

 

Fans won't be excited about that because of what it likely means for (continued lack of) investment at WR. Also, I suspect the transition away from Taron will coincide with changes in the LBer group.  

[Governor]

32 minutes ago, Mikie2times said:

The first build was damn near brilliant. Even as a critic I have given him that. The second hasn't been nearly as strong.  We need to make some additions in key areas. We need to become unified in our approach. But with that, most people will concede we are better than Denver and New England. If that is the case, it makes the argument that this isn't a Super Bowl roster a little less effective. 

I think the defenses on both builds were terrible (not SB worthy) but I actually like the offensive build we have now better(minus the post draft signings), just add WR1. That can be fixed in 1 draft/offseason.

 

I do miss Beasley but that’s about it.

Edited January 23 by Governor

[Bill from NYC]

41 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

I hope he proves me wrong, but I have very little faith in Beane.  

 

I don't expect him to build a good roster.  I don't expect him to pick a good HC.  I don't expect him to bring a Lombardi to Buffalo.

But I really, really hope I'm wrong.  

I think that he will be much better now that McDermott's leash has been removed.