streetkings01 Posted January 22 Posted January 22 I know it’s easy to blame Beane for not bringing in enough WR talent, but I actually put most of the blame on McDermott and Brady. The truth is, Brady’s system is brutal for wide receiver production. I’m 99.9% sure that if we traded for someone like Jaylen Waddle, we’d still be having the same “not enough WR talent” conversation — and I don’t think that was ever entirely true. Just look at the numbers before Brady vs. with Brady: 2023 Diggs – Pre-Brady (10 games): 73 rec, 868 yds, 7 TDs With Brady (7 games): 34 rec, 315 yds, 1 TD Gabe Davis – Pre-Brady (10 games): 33 rec, 490 yds, 5 TDs With Brady (7 games): 12 rec, 256 yds, 2 TDs Curtis Samuel – 31 receptions in 2024… after 64 and 62 the previous two seasons. Amari Cooper – 20 receptions in 2024… after 72 and 78 the previous two seasons. Elijah Moore – 9 receptions in 2025… after 61 and 59 the previous two seasons. Palmer – 22 receptions… after 39, 38, and 72 the previous three seasons. At some point it’s not the players — it’s the scheme. No receiver seems to survive in it. 16 1 2 6 2 8 1 Quote
DapperCam Posted January 22 Posted January 22 Assuming Brady isn’t hired as HC, it isn’t the scheme anymore. So I’m not sure there is a point in beating a dead horse (I’m assuming new HC will bring their own coordinators). 4 2 1 Quote
Alphadawg7 Posted January 22 Posted January 22 (edited) 9 minutes ago, streetkings01 said: I know it’s easy to blame Beane for not bringing in enough WR talent, but I actually put most of the blame on McDermott and Brady. The truth is, Brady’s system is brutal for wide receiver production. I’m 99.9% sure that if we traded for someone like Jaylen Waddle, we’d still be having the same “not enough WR talent” conversation — and I don’t think that was ever entirely true. Just look at the numbers before Brady vs. with Brady: 2023 Diggs – Pre-Brady (10 games): 73 rec, 868 yds, 7 TDs With Brady (7 games): 34 rec, 315 yds, 1 TD Gabe Davis – Pre-Brady (10 games): 33 rec, 490 yds, 5 TDs With Brady (7 games): 12 rec, 256 yds, 2 TDs Curtis Samuel – 31 receptions in 2024… after 64 and 62 the previous two seasons. Amari Cooper – 20 receptions in 2024… after 72 and 78 the previous two seasons. Elijah Moore – 9 receptions in 2025… after 61 and 59 the previous two seasons. Palmer – 22 receptions… after 39, 38, and 72 the previous three seasons. At some point it’s not the players — it’s the scheme. No receiver seems to survive in it. These are facts people will disregard, but they are facts. All that being said, the WR room obviously does need to get better, but even Elijah Moore stated "They don't throw to WR's there" when shrugging off the fact we lost 2 ahead of the Broncos game. The bigger issue is (as far as this offense goes) that we don't have that better talent to lean on in the moments we need to turn it up because we are behind the sticks or in the game. We got guys who can make plays, but it is the lack of someone who can consistently be effective when we need to push the ball more down field. This is why this offense still scores a lot of points but then in other moments can feel like it isn't good enough or things are just hard for it. Edited January 22 by Alphadawg7 4 1 2 Quote
streetkings01 Posted January 22 Author Posted January 22 5 minutes ago, DapperCam said: Assuming Brady isn’t hired as HC, it isn’t the scheme anymore. So I’m not sure there is a point in beating a dead horse (I’m assuming new HC will bring their own coordinators). If you felt my post was “beating a dead horse” then why respond? My post is aimed at those who want to crucify Beane for the lack of WR talent while not pointing out how receivers that were productive the previous 2 seasons all of a sudden lack talent? 3 1 2 Quote
Kirby Jackson Posted January 22 Posted January 22 (edited) 11 minutes ago, streetkings01 said: I know it’s easy to blame Beane for not bringing in enough WR talent, but I actually put most of the blame on McDermott and Brady. The truth is, Brady’s system is brutal for wide receiver production. I’m 99.9% sure that if we traded for someone like Jaylen Waddle, we’d still be having the same “not enough WR talent” conversation — and I don’t think that was ever entirely true. Just look at the numbers before Brady vs. with Brady: 2023 Diggs – Pre-Brady (10 games): 73 rec, 868 yds, 7 TDs With Brady (7 games): 34 rec, 315 yds, 1 TD Gabe Davis – Pre-Brady (10 games): 33 rec, 490 yds, 5 TDs With Brady (7 games): 12 rec, 256 yds, 2 TDs Curtis Samuel – 31 receptions in 2024… after 64 and 62 the previous two seasons. Amari Cooper – 20 receptions in 2024… after 72 and 78 the previous two seasons. Elijah Moore – 9 receptions in 2025… after 61 and 59 the previous two seasons. Palmer – 22 receptions… after 39, 38, and 72 the previous three seasons. At some point it’s not the players — it’s the scheme. No receiver seems to survive in it. Not going to beat it to death because @DapperCam is right. With that being said, this without context is wild. The Bills got a bunch of number 4 WRs and made them 1’s and 2’s. Unsurprisingly, they didn’t get open against number 1 and 2 CBs. Lol, Amari Cooper was out of football 1 day after his last Bills game. Elijah Moore was still on the street after the draft. The Bills released him and he didn’t end up on an active roster. Curtis Samuel is a gadget guy that hasn’t been healthy. Gabe Davis was a street FA. Josh Palmer was the Chargers 4th WR. Diggs couldn’t get down the field any longer by the time Brady got here. He still can’t now. He’s a slot WR that wins with route running. Again, it doesn’t matter because neither Brady, nor these scrub WRs, sans Palmer who they are probably stuck with, will be here. The Bills have the 32nd most talented WR room in the league. No excuses for those scrubs. They suck and won’t be here. Edited January 22 by Kirby Jackson 3 3 2 1 Quote
gonzo1105 Posted January 22 Posted January 22 Yea, this is all true and also the scheme is going to be changing because I highly doubt Joe Brady is getting the job so we shall see. I mean if we hire from the Rams or Seahawks tree we are moving more to a West Coast System with a zone system which will be a stark change from what we have been doing. Quote
JakeFrommStateFarm Posted January 22 Posted January 22 I'll go one further. I think Keon Colemans development was completely mishandled by Brady and McDermott. He was never this bad at FSU 10 1 5 Quote
ddaryl Posted January 22 Posted January 22 15 minutes ago, streetkings01 said: I know it’s easy to blame Beane for not bringing in enough WR talent, but I actually put most of the blame on McDermott and Brady. The truth is, Brady’s system is brutal for wide receiver production. I’m 99.9% sure that if we traded for someone like Jaylen Waddle, we’d still be having the same “not enough WR talent” conversation — and I don’t think that was ever entirely true. Just look at the numbers before Brady vs. with Brady: 2023 Diggs – Pre-Brady (10 games): 73 rec, 868 yds, 7 TDs With Brady (7 games): 34 rec, 315 yds, 1 TD Gabe Davis – Pre-Brady (10 games): 33 rec, 490 yds, 5 TDs With Brady (7 games): 12 rec, 256 yds, 2 TDs Curtis Samuel – 31 receptions in 2024… after 64 and 62 the previous two seasons. Amari Cooper – 20 receptions in 2024… after 72 and 78 the previous two seasons. Elijah Moore – 9 receptions in 2025… after 61 and 59 the previous two seasons. Palmer – 22 receptions… after 39, 38, and 72 the previous three seasons. At some point it’s not the players — it’s the scheme. No receiver seems to survive in it. But to play devils advocate we did have the #1 Rusher in this scheme, we were the top rushing team, and scored the most TDs by rushing in the league... so there is that. 1 Quote
boyst Posted January 22 Posted January 22 2 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Not going to beat it to death because @DapperCam is right. With that being said, this without context is wild. The Bills got a bunch of number 4 WRs and made them 1’s and 2’s. Unsurprisingly, they didn’t get open against number 1 and 2 CBs. Lol, Amari Cooper was out of football 1 day after his last Bills game. Elijah Moore was still on the street after the draft. The Bills released him and he didn’t end up on an active roster. Curtis Samuel is a gadget guy that hasn’t been healthy. Gabe Davis was a street FA. Josh Palmer was the Chargers 4th WR. Diggs couldn’t get down the field any longer by the time Brady got here. He still can’t now. He’s a slot WR that wins with route running. Again, it doesn’t matter because neither Brady, nor these scrub WRs, sans Palmer who they are probably stuck with, will be here. The NFL going forward is going to be gadget and role WRs more so than ever. The expense of someone like Jefferson or Chase is just too much to put it all on - they're not QBs. You can miss a star WR and win a lot of games - you don't need all stars. Look at the Bucs with Evans, Goodwin, and Embugka; as a sum they're worth more than all of their parts but only of value with a QB who can utilize them. All 3 of those guys the Bucs had are better than guys on our roster. If Coleman would have worked out, if Samuel could have stayed healthy, if Palmer could have caught on, and if Gabe Davis was fully healthy we would have had a good lineup with Shakir. It didn't happen. Going forward a #1 WR doesn't have to be Jefferson, Chase, or Megatron. But we need better than what we have now in a lineup that builds a unit over just a player. Quote
Gugny Posted January 22 Posted January 22 19 minutes ago, streetkings01 said: I know it’s easy to blame Beane for not bringing in enough WR talent, but I actually put most of the blame on McDermott and Brady. The truth is, Brady’s system is brutal for wide receiver production. I’m 99.9% sure that if we traded for someone like Jaylen Waddle, we’d still be having the same “not enough WR talent” conversation — and I don’t think that was ever entirely true. Just look at the numbers before Brady vs. with Brady: 2023 Diggs – Pre-Brady (10 games): 73 rec, 868 yds, 7 TDs With Brady (7 games): 34 rec, 315 yds, 1 TD Gabe Davis – Pre-Brady (10 games): 33 rec, 490 yds, 5 TDs With Brady (7 games): 12 rec, 256 yds, 2 TDs Curtis Samuel – 31 receptions in 2024… after 64 and 62 the previous two seasons. Amari Cooper – 20 receptions in 2024… after 72 and 78 the previous two seasons. Elijah Moore – 9 receptions in 2025… after 61 and 59 the previous two seasons. Palmer – 22 receptions… after 39, 38, and 72 the previous three seasons. At some point it’s not the players — it’s the scheme. No receiver seems to survive in it. Diggs went full diva. The rest of them are PS receivers on most teams. 2 Quote
NeverOutNick Posted January 22 Posted January 22 15 minutes ago, streetkings01 said: I know it’s easy to blame Beane for not bringing in enough WR talent, but I actually put most of the blame on McDermott and Brady. The truth is, Brady’s system is brutal for wide receiver production. I’m 99.9% sure that if we traded for someone like Jaylen Waddle, we’d still be having the same “not enough WR talent” conversation — and I don’t think that was ever entirely true. Just look at the numbers before Brady vs. with Brady: 2023 Diggs – Pre-Brady (10 games): 73 rec, 868 yds, 7 TDs With Brady (7 games): 34 rec, 315 yds, 1 TD Gabe Davis – Pre-Brady (10 games): 33 rec, 490 yds, 5 TDs With Brady (7 games): 12 rec, 256 yds, 2 TDs Curtis Samuel – 31 receptions in 2024… after 64 and 62 the previous two seasons. Amari Cooper – 20 receptions in 2024… after 72 and 78 the previous two seasons. Elijah Moore – 9 receptions in 2025… after 61 and 59 the previous two seasons. Palmer – 22 receptions… after 39, 38, and 72 the previous three seasons. At some point it’s not the players — it’s the scheme. No receiver seems to survive in it. You can manipulate numbers to make them say whatever you want, and Josh Allen is a unicorn when it comes to how he distributes the ball to his weapons and how he likes to have the ball in his hands in key moments. I hate when stats and metrics don’t give the whole story. At the end of the day regardless of what Brandon Beane says about our offensive efficiency and fans stating wide receivers coming here to “die“, We need better wide receiver play. The talent at wide receiver has been pathetic, and Joe Brady has had to scheme around the incompetence. Start drafting young cheap options over and over like Green Bay and Baltimore in San Francisco do. I bet Green Bay’s wide receivers don’t have amazing stats, but man do they look good in that offense with a way lesser quarterback. And when one of them goes down, the offense keeps ticking because they’re so deep. Quote
Kirby Jackson Posted January 22 Posted January 22 10 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said: I'll go one further. I think Keon Colemans development was completely mishandled by Brady and McDermott. He was never this bad at FSU This was his chart at FSU. 6 minutes ago, boyst said: The NFL going forward is going to be gadget and role WRs more so than ever. The expense of someone like Jefferson or Chase is just too much to put it all on - they're not QBs. You can miss a star WR and win a lot of games - you don't need all stars. Look at the Bucs with Evans, Goodwin, and Embugka; as a sum they're worth more than all of their parts but only of value with a QB who can utilize them. All 3 of those guys the Bucs had are better than guys on our roster. If Coleman would have worked out, if Samuel could have stayed healthy, if Palmer could have caught on, and if Gabe Davis was fully healthy we would have had a good lineup with Shakir. It didn't happen. Going forward a #1 WR doesn't have to be Jefferson, Chase, or Megatron. But we need better than what we have now in a lineup that builds a unit over just a player. I am with you to a degree. I think we’d all agree the two best WRs in football this year were Puka and JSN. They’re still playing. You can’t just have an elite WR and nothing else like the Jefferson situation. On the Bills though that guy is a force multiplier. He makes Cook better. He makes Kincaid better and Shakir and Cooks. 2 3 Quote
SoonerBillsFan Posted January 22 Posted January 22 3 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: This was his chart at FSU. He was, and is bad. Quote
Luka Posted January 22 Posted January 22 18 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said: I'll go one further. I think Keon Colemans development was completely mishandled by Brady and McDermott. He was never this bad at FSU He rarely played NFL talent, either. Quote
BeyondTheProcess Posted January 22 Posted January 22 When defenses got lighter and faster and more athletic, and went to cover 2 and cover 3, offenses had to evolve and that is what Brady (and a lot of others) did. Bigger WRs, more TE action, more running at lighter boxes. Made total sense to me. And it worked. Bills scoring did not drop . Not as fun as the 2020 "spread em out an light em up" offense, but DCs took that stuff away by playing zone, penning Josh in and making him take the shorter stuff inside the numbers. I'm guessing that is why Coleman was taken over Worthy , for example. We can piss and moan all we want, but defenses evolve in the NFL and weren't going to just let Josh wing it all over the lot. 3 Quote
NeverOutNick Posted January 22 Posted January 22 27 minutes ago, streetkings01 said: At some point it’s not the players — it’s the scheme. No receiver seems to survive in it. I know it’s not the right quote but I couldn’t find it. But do you remember in this scene when Julian states attitude reflects leadership? That’s how I feel about Brady and Beane. Scheme reflects incompetence. Give Brady better WRs and I bet the scheme would evolve. Quote
Billz4ever Posted January 22 Posted January 22 (edited) 17 hours ago, streetkings01 said: I know it’s easy to blame Beane for not bringing in enough WR talent, but I actually put most of the blame on McDermott and Brady. The truth is, Brady’s system is brutal for wide receiver production. I’m 99.9% sure that if we traded for someone like Jaylen Waddle, we’d still be having the same “not enough WR talent” conversation — and I don’t think that was ever entirely true. Just look at the numbers before Brady vs. with Brady: 2023 Diggs – Pre-Brady (10 games): 73 rec, 868 yds, 7 TDs With Brady (7 games): 34 rec, 315 yds, 1 TD Gabe Davis – Pre-Brady (10 games): 33 rec, 490 yds, 5 TDs With Brady (7 games): 12 rec, 256 yds, 2 TDs Curtis Samuel – 31 receptions in 2024… after 64 and 62 the previous two seasons. Amari Cooper – 20 receptions in 2024… after 72 and 78 the previous two seasons. Elijah Moore – 9 receptions in 2025… after 61 and 59 the previous two seasons. Palmer – 22 receptions… after 39, 38, and 72 the previous three seasons. At some point it’s not the players — it’s the scheme. No receiver seems to survive in it. I mean separation is separation and watching the games, it was waaaay too apparent that they could not put distance between themselves and the defender. Cooks came in and started doing so. Two things can be true. Scheme can make it worse, but you still have to have dudes who can get open regardless. Edited January 23 by Billz4ever 1 1 Quote
streetkings01 Posted January 22 Author Posted January 22 12 minutes ago, Gugny said: Diggs went full diva. The rest of them are PS receivers on most teams. How were they PS receivers on most team coming off 60+ catch seasons? My issue is we got absolutely 0 from most of those guys while I’ve seen Daboll get production out of Zay Jones and Robert Foster with a rookie Josh Allen and a bad offensive line! 3 minutes ago, Luka said: He rarely played NFL talent, either. He cooked up LSU! #FearTheSpear 2 Quote
BeyondTheProcess Posted January 22 Posted January 22 8 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: This was his chart at FSU. I am with you to a degree. I think we’d all agree the two best WRs in football this year were Puka and JSN. They’re still playing. You can’t just have an elite WR and nothing else like the Jefferson situation. On the Bills though that guy is a force multiplier. He makes Cook better. He makes Kincaid better and Shakir and Cooks. and they are both primarily slots. plus both teams work the TEs heavily. Offense has changed to attack between the numbers. Lightning fast outside wideouts have been taken away by corners who are much faster and athletic than in the past. Sucks to watch, but DCs have largely taken away the 11 formation stuff. 1 Quote
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted January 22 Posted January 22 25 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Not going to beat it to death because @DapperCam is right. With that being said, this without context is wild. The Bills got a bunch of number 4 WRs and made them 1’s and 2’s. Unsurprisingly, they didn’t get open against number 1 and 2 CBs. Lol, Amari Cooper was out of football 1 day after his last Bills game. Elijah Moore was still on the street after the draft. The Bills released him and he didn’t end up on an active roster. Curtis Samuel is a gadget guy that hasn’t been healthy. Gabe Davis was a street FA. Josh Palmer was the Chargers 4th WR. Diggs couldn’t get down the field any longer by the time Brady got here. He still can’t now. He’s a slot WR that wins with route running. Again, it doesn’t matter because neither Brady, nor these scrub WRs, sans Palmer who they are probably stuck with, will be here. The Bills have the 32nd most talented WR room in the league. No excuses for those scrubs. They suck and won’t be here. The only thing I disagree with. Maybe 5s and 6s. 1 Quote
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