Tee Higgins back in Protocol

[JoPoy88]

10 minutes ago, muppy said:

I want to throw this out as devils advocate. Could a player conceivably sue the NFL for malfeasance in a situation like this?

 

If a player is putting his health and safety in the decisions of Doctors and they fail in that responsibility is it legal negligence?

 

Or do players accept the risk playing the very violent sport which is NFL football. Is said player responsible for his agreeingtg to go back into a game after his recent history? RECENT History too

 

thoughts?

past generations of players have already done that.

[rusty shackleford]

Besides the obvious signs of grabbing at his head after it bounced off frozen ground, you could tell he wasn’t right from how he was playing. He had a few drops where he was wide open and something wasn’t working right with his motor skills.

The announcers even made some excuses for what they saw, like he must have heard the footsteps of White behind him after giving a 15 yard cushion. Then somehow he made that one handed circus catch touchdown.

[Neo]

44 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said:

Go to the 10 minutes left ibn the 4th qtr, he hirs his head pretty hard and looks a bit disoriented holding his head.  He should have been yanked there immediatly  imo non-medical pinion.  It wasnt as absurd as the Tua fiasco a few years ago but to be it was painfully obvious.

 

 

I think if he typed like you did in this post, they’d have pulled him.

 

I jest, I jest.   I’ve phone botched, too!

[The Wiz]

13 minutes ago, muppy said:

I want to throw this out as devils advocate. Could a player conceivably sue the NFL for malfeasance in a situation like this?

 

If a player is putting his health and safety in the decisions of Doctors and they fail in that responsibility is it legal negligence?

 

Or do players accept the risk playing the very violent sport which is NFL football. Is said player responsible for his agreeingtg to go back into a game after his recent history? RECENT History too

 

thoughts?

The reality is, is that the NFL baseline testing is likely a joke.  It's a cognitive test that players have to do with individual results.  To really play devils advocate, you could even ask, are players taking these cognitive tests and acting like the biggest idiot in the world so if they ever get a concussion, they can easily clear it?

 

From what I was listening to on the radio earlier, these "independent evaluators" are actually employed by the teams.  That's what happened with Tua when he had his "back spasms".

 

Either way, players are going to want to play even if they had their "bell rung" because they have that competitive nature in them so if the doctor tells them they are good they are likely going to say "well the doctor said so, so I guess I'm good".

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

30 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

 

To administer the testing?  The team doctor can probably say one way or another whether he should go back in, but i'm not sure how much the coaches talk to the team doctors during a game if at all.  

 

If they're testing - Balance, speech, coordination, vision as they claim

• Speech will be a comparison to a baseline.  The players know this, and its probably the piece they can most manipulate.
• Balance can't be faked
• Coordination can't be faked
• Vision test... i dunno maybe but i'd imagine also can't really be faked.

All this to say - we know his balance and coordination weren't affected because he was mossing everyone in the secondary.  He cleared all of his tests, and there is no requirement to take him out because he cleared protocol last week or whatever.  If they want teams to take players out, then they need to change how they do these things.  

The coaches have nothing to do with it.

[transient]

3 minutes ago, muppy said:

I want to throw this out as devils advocate. Could a player conceivably sue the NFL for malfeasance in a situation like this?

 

If a player is putting his health and safety in the decisions of Doctors and they fail in that responsibility is it legal negligence?

 

Or do players accept the risk playing the very violent sport which is NFL football. Is said player responsible for his agreeingtg to go back into a game after his recent history? RECENT History too

 

thoughts?

Let me play devil's advocate. Where is there actual suggestion of malfeasance and/or negligence? Contrary to what 90% of people on this board are professing to know with certainty, hitting one's head and pointing to it does not constitute a concussion. Assuming the team physicians and independent neurological consultants followed protocol, and assuming there was no OBJECTIVE evidence of a concussion despite multiple assessments, including a reported assessment in the locker room at half time, what justification do they have for then holding a player out of the game? The league protocol doesn't suggest they hold players out on the suspicion despite a negative assessment. Higgins himself, after the game, said he underwent multiple assessments that he passed, and was then asked if he was comfortable with returning to play. This is not a compound fracture that is diagnosed with certainty the minute it happens. There is no fool proof test that identifies all concussions. Unfortunately, many of these instances become clearer with hindsight.

 

For reference, here is the NFLPA response to the Tua incident with the "back injury" that outlines changes made to the protocol pretty clearly. Assuming Higgins had no concussion symptoms, and there were no "no-go" findings on his assessment, there was no medical obligation to hold him out of the game based on the current league protocol - https://nflpa.com/posts/concussion-protocols-where-we-stand-now.

[NoSaint]

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

You don’t say…if he passed the tests he passed the tests nothing inherently shady like the tua ‘back’ injury but man maybe the tests are completely useless 😂

I suspect it’s the case of the tests arent perfect because the body and brain are rarely 100% predictable yet alone by other humans quickly on a sidelines quickly as possible 

 

we will see if something more to it but it’s third party outsiders

[muppy]

17 minutes ago, transient said:

Let me play devil's advocate. Where is there actual suggestion of malfeasance and/or negligence? Contrary to what 90% of people on this board are professing to know with certainty, hitting one's head and pointing to it does not constitute a concussion. Assuming the team physicians and independent neurological consultants followed protocol, and assuming there was no OBJECTIVE evidence of a concussion despite multiple assessments, including a reported assessment in the locker room at half time, what justification do they have for then holding a player out of the game? The league protocol doesn't suggest they hold players out on the suspicion despite a negative assessment. Higgins himself, after the game, said he underwent multiple assessments that he passed, and was then asked if he was comfortable with returning to play. This is not a compound fracture that is diagnosed with certainty the minute it happens. There is no fool proof test that identifies all concussions. Unfortunately, many of these instances become clearer with hindsight.

 

For reference, here is the NFLPA response to the Tua incident with the "back injury" that outlines changes made to the protocol pretty clearly. Assuming Higgins had no concussion symptoms, and there were no "no-go" findings on his assessment, there was no medical obligation to hold him out of the game based on the current league protocol - https://nflpa.com/posts/concussion-protocols-where-we-stand-now.

the fact he is now back on the protocol hours later after such a recent history of being concussed and the blows we saw him take to his head.. That's my answer to the above bolded.  I guess it boils down to wether or not the Dr's are objective enough to make an unpopular decision in a crucial game (taking him off the field) and wether a player can talk his way back onto the field even if he has one.  Im not a Doctor. and we don't know how thorough their  assessments were or are for that matter.  

 

For me it just doesn't pass a smell test .  Thank you for the dialogue.

[Simon]

39 minutes ago, The Wiz said:

To really play devils advocate, you could even ask, are players taking these cognitive tests and acting like the biggest idiot in the world so if they ever get a concussion, they can easily clear it?

 

Guys have absolutely learned to do baseline tests at less than full effort to leave themselves wiggle room.

And not just in the NFL either; the practice has filtered down to lower levels as well.

[muppy]

1 minute ago, Simon said:

 

Guys have absolutely learned to do baseline tests at less than full effort to leave themselves wiggle room.

And not just in the NFL either; the practice has filtered down to lower levels as well.

interesting.  wow. I had no idea of this thank you

[JMM]

This was absolutely disgusting by both the Bengals and the league yesterday.  Where was the independent neurologist???? EVERYBODY knew he was concussed. This could effect this young man's LIFE. Unacceptable. 

[BillsFooteball]

I was waiting on this! Least surprising Monday news. 

[Billzgobowlin]

3 hours ago, Chaos said:

He was pretty high functioning late in the game, particularly with that one-handed TD grab.  I am honestly not sure what players and teams are supposed to do in that situation. 

The amount of drops and bobbles after that hit made most of us on here give pause on if he should be in the game.  Completely a different player after he hit his head.  Heck even the way he kept holding his head he should not have been in the game.

40 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Guys have absolutely learned to do baseline tests at less than full effort to leave themselves wiggle room.

And not just in the NFL either; the practice has filtered down to lower levels as well.

Should not have even gotten to baseline tests.  Most of us know he wasn't right, certainly a neurologist could see it.

[boyst]

2 hours ago, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

C'mon man you know the rules, it's not the players call on head injuries.

It should be. They're grown ass men and they can make their own decisions. 

[Einstein]

3 hours ago, wjag said:

shocking..  he was making one handed catches concussed.

 

He was making catches while concussed that our receivers can’t make on their healthiest day.

[davefan66]

Former players have admitted to getting their “bell rung” and not remembering the remainder of the game and continued to play and at a high level.

 

That is why they have the doctor assess the player nowadays. Because sometimes it’s difficult to realize they sustained a concussion based on how they were playing.

[TBBills Fan]

When it comes to superstars, the league puts player safety as more optional 

[transient]

1 hour ago, Simon said:

 

Guys have absolutely learned to do baseline tests at less than full effort to leave themselves wiggle room.

And not just in the NFL either; the practice has filtered down to lower levels as well.

The practice of sandbagging baseline testing probably actually started in collegiate sports and filtered up to the pros. The protocols for return to play and the research behind them originated from academic neuroscience programs at institutions with large sports programs. I know several of the researchers personally. When it’s really obvious, they have players redo the testing. Players also withhold information on the sidelines during the evaluations, and if they are lucid enough in the moment, they try avoid calling any attention to the fact that they hit their head. It’s easy to tell if someone loses consciousness, is posturing, has nystagmus, is ataxic, has motor instability, or is confused enough they can’t answer questions. Determining if they have a headache, ringing in their ears, dizziness, nausea, photophobia, etc relies on the player being forthcoming. It’s an imperfect system without a simple fix. 

[Simon]

6 minutes ago, transient said:

The practice of sandbagging baseline testing probably actually started in collegiate sports and filtered up to the pros. The protocols for return to play and the research behind them originated from academic neuroscience programs at institutions with large sports programs.

 

That's a great point that I'd never even considered.

And I've actually had more than one HS player make cracks about it to me. 😧

[HardyBoy]

3 hours ago, dcinmuncie said:

kinda crazy how good the dude is. playing with half a brain, he still makes ridiculous one handed catches. just an elite player

 

So much of that stuff is super ingrained muscle memory type stuff...it might not be the same pathways that get impacted by not super bad concussions...like not all concussions cause a fencer's pose for example

 

There has to be some type of eye tracking test that can be way more conclusive when paired with novel reasoning questions or something that just can't be faked...or some kind of hat you can wear to measure brain waves and see if it matches previous baselines that just simply cannot be faked.

 

Now the fact they aren't using something like that (again I'm assuming something like that has to exist), is that because basically no nfl player would pass it after playing a game? The NHL has a massive concussion problem and it's not from huge hits, but just how the brain keeps moving after the body stops and they're skating super fast...like just the nature of running super fast and stopping suddenly or lineman hitting each other with that much mass even from just a yard apart and the forces on the brain...would they pass that? Would them failing be because they had the injury as a result of the big hit they are being evaluated for, or is it because they would fail after playing a quarter of nfl football?