Why are we so late to adjust defensively?

[BillsFan130]

3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

DeMeco Ryan's defense forced an immediate 3 and out on the Chiefs opening possession, and Spag's D forced the Texans to punt after 7 plays on their opening possession.

Somehow both those D Coaches were able to come in with enough data gathered ahead of time to be aggressive and force punts.

 

Something, something, hard to win in the NFL, bend but dont break...

Yep. Under no world is it acceptable to just sit back on your heels and let a team pick you apart for half the quarter.

 

Especially knowing that Joe Burrow absolutely kills zone coverage 

[HoofHearted]

6 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

 

DeMeco Ryan's defense forced an immediate 3 and out on the Chiefs opening possession, and Spag's D forced the Texans to punt after 7 plays on their opening possession.

Somehow both those D Coaches were able to come in with enough data gathered ahead of time to be aggressive and force punts.

 

Something, something, hard to win in the NFL, bend but dont break...

Both teams rushed 4 and dropped 7, if that's aggressive I guess we have differing definitions of what aggressive is.

[BillsFan130]

9 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Sure, we did as well. They just converted. It happens.

When did we send a pressure on the opening drive? I honestly don't remember that at all.

 

Looked like they played some man coverage with 2 safeties on the first 3rd down when Higgins converted. 

 

Everything after that looked like soft zone. Greg Olsen even called them out on it , especially on that 3rd and 7 around the 20-25 yard line.

[RkFast]

2 hours ago, nosejob said:

They have to come out aggressive against the Pats. They are playing Josh McDaniels. He will eat us alive. We need to lay the wood to Maye. Blitz away. Giving up a big play here and there is worse than them going 9-10 on 3rd down and /or constantly moving the chains? We need to attack, results be damned.

 

This is literally the football equivalent of every hitter in your lineup trying to jack every single pitch out of the ballpark in the first inning, or every player on the court shooting NOTHING but 3s from the second the game starts.  

Edited 11 hours ago by RkFast

[Buffalo716]

31 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Yep. Under no world is it acceptable to just sit back on your heels and let a team pick you apart for half the quarter.

 

Especially knowing that Joe Burrow absolutely kills zone coverage 

You ever think Joe burriw was just on a heater 

 

he literally was making passes in the first half that were supreme touch throws with great catches.. Mike g had a crazy catch on a corner out with tight coverage 

 

You can't beat a perfectly thrown football 

 

And you just can't sit under their wide receivers and press them when we don't have a pass rush that is getting there... Houston could play more aggressive coverage than the bills can 

 

We need to dial up our aggressiveness strategically.. and guess what it worked 

 

Anybody who was thinking we were going to win this game 21 to 17 doesn't know Joe b was coming to play

Edited 10 hours ago by Buffalo716

[HoofHearted]

11 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

When did we send a pressure on the opening drive? I honestly don't remember that at all.

 

Looked like they played some man coverage with 2 safeties on the first 3rd down when Higgins converted. 

 

Everything after that looked like soft zone. Greg Olsen even called them out on it , especially on that 3rd and 7 around the 20-25 yard line.

The first third down was 2 man and we sent the backer.

 

What coverage is soft zone? That term gets thrown around here a lot and doesn't mean anything.

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

The first third down was 2 man and we sent the backer.

 

What coverage is soft zone? That term gets thrown around here a lot and doesn't mean anything.

I'll have to re watch that first 3rd down as maybe I missed that.

 

Ya I am saying it loosely. Essentially what I mean is they are playing zone coverage with lots of space off the receivers and are playing over the top.
 

correct me if I'm wrong of course but that's what it looked like to me and Olsen mentioned that 2-3x on the opening drive also

 

[Buffalo716]

17 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

The first third down was 2 man and we sent the backer.

 

What coverage is soft zone? That term gets thrown around here a lot and doesn't mean anything.

Most people think playing zone coverage with your cornerbacks playing off a few yards equals soft 

 

That's the gist of this website they think heavy zone with players playing their sound technique equals soft...

 

What they want is press bump and run every play without realizing you need the personnel to do that and that also has its own negatives

 

Sean has a great scheme in the back half... He disguises things well.. he has very well timed blitzes 

 

His defense this whole year tightens up as the game goes along

Edited 10 hours ago by Buffalo716

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I'll have to re watch that first 3rd down as maybe I missed that.

 

Ya I am saying it loosely. Essentially what I mean is they are playing zone coverage with lots of space off the receivers and are playing over the top.
 

correct me if I'm wrong of course but that's what it looked like to me and Olsen mentioned that 2-3x on the opening drive also

 

That whole first drive we were within 3 yards of the receiver from the LoS pre-snap. The only times we weren't was when we ran an Inverted 2 look and our corners were dropping out to play their Cover 2 drops, and one rep of 2 man where Tre bailed out early. Other than that our pre-snap presentation was very much a "press" look.

[BillsFan130]

11 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

You ever think Joe burriw was just on a heater 

 

he literally was making passes in the first half that were supreme touch throws with great catches.. Mike g had a crazy catch on a corner out with tight coverage 

 

You can't beat a perfectly thrown football 

 

And you just can't sit under their wide receivers and press them when we don't have a pass rush that is getting there... Houston could play more aggressive coverage than the bills can 

 

We need to dial up our aggressiveness strategically.. and guess what it worked 

 

Anybody who was thinking we were going to win this game 21 to 17 doesn't know Joe b was coming to play

I really don't have an issue with the game plan after the first drive.

 

My problem was the first drive and playing way too passive.

After that they were more aggressive. They got beat at times and I can live with that.
 

But I can't live with Joe burrow just chewing up zone time after time

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

That whole first drive we were within 3 yards of the receiver from the LoS pre-snap. The only times we weren't was when we ran an Inverted 2 look and our corners were dropping out to play their Cover 2 drops, and one rep of 2 man where Tre bailed out early. Other than that our pre-snap presentation was very much a "press" look.

Fair- but at the end of the day they weren't pressing, outside of the first 3rd down conversion.

 

Maybe disguised press looks , but at the end of the day there was a ton of cushion for the most part on that first drive

[Starr Almighty]

7 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

The first drive was baffling. Everyone knew that you can't play soft zone against Cinci as burrow would eat it up, but that's exactly what the Bills did lol.

Good adjustments during the game , but I just don't understand how you come out with that as the defensive game plan

That was the game plan in the Damar game and in the playoff game too. That's why Josh was 0-2 vs them going into this game 

[HoofHearted]

20 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I really don't have an issue with the game plan after the first drive.

 

My problem was the first drive and playing way too passive.

After that they were more aggressive. They got beat at times and I can live with that.
 

But I can't live with Joe burrow just chewing up zone time after time

Fair- but at the end of the day they weren't pressing, outside of the first 3rd down conversion.

 

Maybe disguised press looks , but at the end of the day there was a ton of cushion for the most part on that first drive

So is zone the issue or that we aren't getting hands on receivers that you take issue with?

 

EDIT: I assume when you say press you're referring to a true jam at the line.

Edited 10 hours ago by HoofHearted

[BillsFan130]

1 minute ago, HoofHearted said:

So is zone the issue or that we aren't getting hands on receivers that you take issue with?

 

EDIT: I assume when you say press you're referring to a true jam at the line.

Correct.

 

Ya just more the zone in general. I just don't think you can do that against Joe burrow consistently, as it's just too easy for someone as smart as him 

Of course you got to play it sometimes, as even the most man dominant defences in the nfl are probably around the 40-45% man mark or whatever it is

 

 

[HappyDays]

26 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

and one rep of 2 man where Tre bailed out early

 

This was the one play call that really bothered me in real time. Now you would certainly know better than me. Watching it back on the all-22 based on Tre's drop I would think it's cover 3 (or cover 6?) where he's dropping into his deep 3rd leaving no one underneath to take the air out of Iosivas' route. Easy pitch and catch from there. But are you saying Tre is playing man on Iosivas there? Because if so that's a horrible job by him, so bad that it makes the play call look silly.

[HappyDays]

One random fun wrinkle that popped up on the all-22. On Benford's CB blitz into a sack we had Ja'Marr Chase being double covered by Shaq Thompson and... Greg Rousseau 😂

 

Here's the play:

Good aggressive play call in a moment where we really needed a negative play.

 

Another note - Hancock is athletic but he doesn't really know what he's supposed to be doing on a lot of his plays. The TD to Higgins with Tre in coverage, Hancock inexplicably comes way downhill seemingly to cover Gesicki who is already bottled up, meanwhile Tre looks like he's expecting help deep and inside and it isn't there. Bishop on the other hand didn't give up anything as far as I could tell and had a couple nice run fills from depth.

 

Edited 10 hours ago by HappyDays

[HoofHearted]

3 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

Correct.

 

Ya just more the zone in general. I just don't think you can do that against Joe burrow consistently, as it's just too easy for someone as smart as him 

Of course you got to play it sometimes, as even the most man dominant defences in the nfl are probably around the 40-45% man mark or whatever it is

 

 

Yeah, man is taxing. Add in condensed sets that make it difficult to sort out man responsibilities post-snap with all the switching that occurs. Add in the choice routes that just run away from your leverage. Add in a Quarterback who, as you stated, is smart and can diagnose all of this based on your pre-snap presentation. It still sound as good?

 

There has to be a healthy mix in order for a defense to be successful. At the end of the day if you sit in one thing all game you're going to get picked apart. That first drive alone we ran 10 different coverages (Cover 3, Cover 4, 2 Man, Cover 6, Tampa, 4 Buzz, 2 Invert, 2 Sky, and what I call Combo (Split Safety Coverage), and Cover 1). If you're going to feel out a first drive and see how an opponent is going to attack you while still disguising and showing a whole heck of a lot of post-snap presentation I'd say we did a pretty good job of making Burrow think - all while showing tight coverage pre-snap to not allow him to get anything out quick to at least give our pass rush a chance (as bad as they are). At the end of the day, if we don't miss a tackle on a check-down to Perine it's a completely different start to the game.

15 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This was the one play call that really bothered me in real time. Now you would certainly know better than me. Watching it back on the all-22 based on Tre's drop I would think it's cover 3 (or cover 6?) where he's dropping into his deep 3rd leaving no one underneath to take the air out of Iosivas' route. Easy pitch and catch from there. But are you saying Tre is playing man on Iosivas there? Because if so that's a horrible job by him, so bad that it makes the play call look silly.

It's 2 man - he blew the coverage. You can see McDermott yelling at him from the sideline.

10 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

One random fun wrinkle that popped up on the all-22. On Benford's CB blitz into a sack we had Ja'Marr Chase being double covered by Shaq Thompson and... Greg Rousseau 😂

 

Here's the play:

Good aggressive play call in a moment where we really needed a negative play.

 

Another note - Hancock is athletic but he doesn't really know what he's supposed to be doing on a lot of his plays. The TD to Higgins with Tre in coverage, Hancock inexplicably comes way downhill seemingly to cover Gesicki who is already bottled up, meanwhile Tre looks like he's expecting help deep and inside and it isn't there. Bishop on the other hand didn't give up anything as far as I could tell and had a couple nice run fills from depth.

 

Go peep TJ Sanders dropping into coverage on one of our Sims where we bring Poyer from the opposite side.

 

Hancock blew the coverage. It was 2 man there as well. Left Tre hanging. Young players making young player mistakes.

[HappyDays]

7 hours ago, Low Positive said:

That's how that Gesicki TD happened.

 

The Gesicki TD happened because a bunch of our DBs didn't know their assignments... I've seen less of this since McDermott took over play calling from Babich after the Atlanta debacle, but before that play Cam Lewis and others are frantically pointing at each other like they have no idea who is covering who. Looks like a man call to me but Taron is way out of position to be covering Gesicki and late getting to him, meanwhile Burrow had an even easier TD he could have thrown to an underneath player on the same side that nobody was covering.

[newcam2012]

I would like to get some input on the last Bengal drive after the Bills scored and went up by two scores with like 3 minutes to go in the game. The Bengals just hit big pass after big pass and scored before the 2 minute warning. I was very surprised that the Bills didn't play a soft zone and try to make the Bengals use more time. Instead, it looked like McD was sending pressure and blitzing. It resulted in one on one matchups and big down field plays. Seemed like the incorrect strategy. 

Edited 8 hours ago by newcam2012

[HoofHearted]

51 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

I would like to get some input on the last Bengal drive after the Bills scored and went up by two scores with like 3 minutes to go in the game. The Bengals just hit big pass after big pass and scored before the 2 minute warning. I was very surprised that the Bills didn't play a soft zone and try to make the Bengals use more time. Instead, it looked like McD was sending pressure and blitzing. It resulted in one on one matchups and big down field plays. Seemed like the incorrect strategy. 

Only blitzed on the final play. Other than that it was Cover 2, Cover 3, Combo, and then the touchdown on Tre actually wasn’t 2 man. It played like quarters with wall players inside.

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

The Gesicki TD happened because a bunch of our DBs didn't know their assignments... I've seen less of this since McDermott took over play calling from Babich after the Atlanta debacle, but before that play Cam Lewis and others are frantically pointing at each other like they have no idea who is covering who. Looks like a man call to me but Taron is way out of position to be covering Gesicki and late getting to him, meanwhile Burrow had an even easier TD he could have thrown to an underneath player on the same side that nobody was covering.

Cam should have been further inside. He should have either back out weak or first crosser if back goes strong.

[HappyDays]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Anybody who was thinking we were going to win this game 21 to 17 doesn't know Joe b was coming to play

 

So I don't necessarily have a problem with a talented offense putting points on the scoreboard. I get it, Cincy when healthy can do that to just about anyone other than maybe Houston. The path to beating them is what we did yesterday, try to put up 40 and create a couple negative plays on defense along the way.

 

My overarching complaint, and this is more about the roster construction than the coaching yesterday, is that we spent all this money and draft picks on the defense only for us to still end up in these shootouts. Like we're acknowledging before the game even starts that Cincy is putting up 30+ no matter what, so why do we not want offensive weapons that can keep pace in a game like that? What is the point of investing in the defense as much as we have at the expense of the offense if we're just going to throw our hands up and say "nothing more we could have done" when another offense has its way with us? Either it's true that we need to keep making big investments in the defense, or it's true that nobody can stop an elite offense when they're clicking. Those statements can't both be true. If the second statement is true (and I acknowledge that it mostly is) then the only viable solution is an offense that can match.

 

Edited 7 hours ago by HappyDays