Sean apologists... If McD gets fired without ever winning a Super Bowl, you will...

[DrDawkinstein]

1 minute ago, Cray51 said:

Agree on all counts.

 

If you are looking to fire McD at the end of the year, the options are:

 

1) Promote Brady

2) Bring a coach back from retirement (Gruden, Arians, etc.).  I find this VERY unlikely, but potential.  You also could risk someone like Rivera being hired by Pegula

3) Promote another team's OC/DC.  Unfortunately, not many options here.  Do you try to grab ANOTHER DC like Sean to come over?  Flores?  IDK.  Seems like a waste as Sean is already the defensive minded HC.  Maybe you grab an OC, but there isn't much out there.  If you go the Shanahan tree, it may provide options, but how long is that well going to be good for?

 

My opinion, you either keep Sean for another year, or promote Brady.  I dont see any other reasonable risk free options in the market.

 

Klint Kubiak over Brady, imo

[RkFast]

17 minutes ago, Cray51 said:

Agree on all counts.

 

If you are looking to fire McD at the end of the year, the options are:

 

1) Promote Brady

2) Bring a coach back from retirement (Gruden, Arians, etc.).  I find this VERY unlikely, but potential.  You also could risk someone like Rivera being hired by Pegula

3) Promote another team's OC/DC.  Unfortunately, not many options here.  Do you try to grab ANOTHER DC like Sean to come over?  Flores?  IDK.  Seems like a waste as Sean is already the defensive minded HC.  Maybe you grab an OC, but there isn't much out there.  If you go the Shanahan tree, it may provide options, but how long is that well going to be good for?

 

My opinion, you either keep Sean for another year, or promote Brady.  I dont see any other reasonable risk free options in the market.

 

What's Frank Reich doing?

[folz]

On 12/1/2025 at 10:51 AM, DrDawkinstein said:

I dont think he gets fired this year, so that isnt the question.

 

Terry and many folks here seem to be happy sitting on a nice Regular Season win/loss record, and some AFC East Championships (although those days seem to be over now that there's a better HC in the Division).

 

When we go another few years of this garbage, and Josh has officially entered the end of his career, how happy will you McD Apologists be with nothing to show for it all?

 

Just curious, what metric are you using to evaluate coaches? Sure, the Pats look good this year...but how is Vrabel (in your opinion) an obviously better coach than McDermott?

 

Mike Vrabel

8 years as head coach. 65-47 reg season (.580%). Three (will soon be four) playoff appearances in 8 years. 2-3 in the playoffs (.400%). Two first round playoff losses (in three tries). 1 AFC Champ game appearance.

 

Sean McDermott

9 years as head coach. 94-49 reg season (.657%). Seven (will soon be eight) playoff appearances in 9 years. 7-7 in the playoffs (.500%). Two first round playoff losses (in seven tries). 2 AFC Champ game appearances.

 

Now of course the response will be...yeah, but Sean has had Josh. Fair enough. But let me counter with. (1.) Sean did not have Josh in year one, and Josh was not Josh in year two or year three of McD's tenure. So, he has had prime Josh for 6 years, not 9 years. (2.) While no one is going to compare Ryan Tannehill to Josh (other than that they were chosen 7th and 8th overall in the draft their respective years), he was not a horrible QB (average). BUT, Vrabel did also have a generational talent on his team in a prime Derrick Henry. Despite missing 9 games in 2021, Henry still averaged (AVERAGED) 1,576 yards from scrimmage and 14 TDs/year while Vrabel was his coach. Now, of course, QB is still the more important position, but having Henry sure does balance things out a bit.

 

Taking QBs out of it for the moment, well, they are both defensive coaches right? So, let's look at how their defenses have fared. Here are their team's defensive rankings for both yards against and points against.

 

                 Vrabel                                      McDermott

 Yds against      Pts against           Yds against      Pts against

      20                    32                           26                     18

       8                      3                              2                      18

      21                     12                             3                       2

      28                    24                           14                      16

      12                      6                             1                        1

      23                    14                             6                       2

      18                     16                             9                      4

       7                       5                            17                      11

                                                               8                      13 

 

Average Rankings:

Vrablel: Yards Against: 17.1; Points Against: 14.0

McDerm: Yards Against: 9.5; Points Against: 9.4

 

And if you are curious on the offensive rankings in their tenures, well:

Vrabel: Yards for: 18th; Points for: 16th.

McDerm: Yards for: 12th; Points for 10th. 

 

And again, the Pats look very good this year, no doubt. But can they maintain that? Many coaches can come in and make a difference right away (just because a culture change was needed), but can they continue to play at the level they are now as the message gets stale, as they have to pay Maye big money, as Free Agency and age starts gnawing at their roster. I do think Vrabel is a very good coach and he might be able to weather those storms (it does help when you have your QB), but again, I ask you, by what metric are you saying that he is a better coach than Mcdermott? There isn't a stat in his favor at the moment, other than their record this year---3 more wins than the Bills, but also having played one extra game---and they have the head-to-head this year...but we'll face them again, at least once more. And if we win while the Pats are on BYE and then we win the rematch, the Pats will only be one game ahead of us. I just think that there is a lot of "the grass is greener" mentality amongst Bills fans right now. Yet as we know, that is usually not the case.

 

[boyst]

27 minutes ago, RkFast said:

 

What's Frank Reich doing?

His ceiling is a passing coordinator or quarterback coach. I was wrong on Ken Dorsey, who also is at his limit as a quarterback coach. He will be an average to above average OC but that isn't what teams really need to win it all is it?

[tigerthelion]

On 12/1/2025 at 12:14 PM, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

For every Ben Johnson, you have:

 

1) Brian Dabol

2) Mike McDaniel

3) Robert Selah

4) Matt Eberflus

5) Brian Callahan

6) Doug Pederson

7) Mike McDaniel

 

Those are the ones for the top of my head. 

The risk is high. It may be worth it, but it is high. 

 

Pederson won a Super Bowl by defeating the mighty Patriots.  I would take a Super Bowl any day.

[Chaos]

25 minutes ago, folz said:

 

Just curious, what metric are you using to evaluate coaches? Sure, the Pats look good this year...but how is Vrabel (in your opinion) an obviously better coach than McDermott?

 

Mike Vrabel

8 years as head coach. 65-47 reg season (.580%). Three (will soon be four) playoff appearances in 8 years. 2-3 in the playoffs (.400%). Two first round playoff losses (in three tries). 1 AFC Champ game appearance.

 

Sean McDermott

9 years as head coach. 94-49 reg season (.657%). Seven (will soon be eight) playoff appearances in 9 years. 7-7 in the playoffs (.500%). Two first round playoff losses (in seven tries). 2 AFC Champ game appearances.

 

Now of course the response will be...yeah, but Sean has had Josh. Fair enough. But let me counter with. (1.) Sean did not have Josh in year one, and Josh was not Josh in year two or year three of McD's tenure. So, he has had prime Josh for 6 years, not 9 years. (2.) While no one is going to compare Ryan Tannehill to Josh (other than that they were chosen 7th and 8th overall in the draft their respective years), he was not a horrible QB (average). BUT, Vrabel did also have a generational talent on his team in a prime Derrick Henry. Despite missing 9 games in 2021, Henry still averaged (AVERAGED) 1,576 yards from scrimmage and 14 TDs/year while Vrabel was his coach. Now, of course, QB is still the more important position, but having Henry sure does balance things out a bit.

 

Taking QBs out of it for the moment, well, they are both defensive coaches right? So, let's look at how their defenses have fared. Here are their team's defensive rankings for both yards against and points against.

 

                 Vrabel                                      McDermott

 Yds against      Pts against           Yds against      Pts against

      20                    32                           26                     18

       8                      3                              2                      18

      21                     12                             3                       2

      28                    24                           14                      16

      12                      6                             1                        1

      23                    14                             6                       2

      18                     16                             9                      4

       7                       5                            17                      11

                                                               8                      13 

 

Average Rankings:

Vrablel: Yards Against: 17.1; Points Against: 14.0

McDerm: Yards Against: 9.5; Points Against: 9.4

 

And if you are curious on the offensive rankings in their tenures, well:

Vrabel: Yards for: 18th; Points for: 16th.

McDerm: Yards for: 12th; Points for 10th. 

 

And again, the Pats look very good this year, no doubt. But can they maintain that? Many coaches can come in and make a difference right away (just because a culture change was needed), but can they continue to play at the level they are now as the message gets stale, as they have to pay Maye big money, as Free Agency and age starts gnawing at their roster. I do think Vrabel is a very good coach and he might be able to weather those storms (it does help when you have your QB), but again, I ask you, by what metric are you saying that he is a better coach than Mcdermott? There isn't a stat in his favor at the moment, other than their record this year---3 more wins than the Bills, but also having played one extra game---and they have the head-to-head this year...but we'll face them again, at least once more. And if we win while the Pats are on BYE and then we win the rematch, the Pats will only be one game ahead of us. I just think that there is a lot of "the grass is greener" mentality amongst Bills fans right now. Yet as we know, that is usually not the case.

 

Vrabel did not squander half of a great QB's career. Vrabel did not embarrass himself with anything like the 13 second debacle, as part of that squandering process.  So I will go with this Vrabel is not a proven coaching champion.  Neither is McDermott. 

[Einstein's Dog]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I kind of get there through Beane though. I both believe these two are a package deal and believe that is how you should operate in the NFL UNLESS you have a stud General Manager who proves they should get the keys to the castle - and we do not. You hire a GM and a HC who are aligned and then you ride or die by them as a regime. I think Beane's seat should be red hot. And I mean red hot. He is the guy who has spent the least draft capital on receivers in the league during his reign, he went on the radio and very publicly owned that and ridiculed anyone who dared question it and he needs to be accountable for that failure. There is no case for retaining McDermott once you get to firing Brandon Beane IMO. If you are doing it, clean house and let a new regime have a shot with Josh's back 9. 

 

I agree Beane is tied into the WR problem.  But the amount of heat he gets for letting the radio guy get under his skin gets taken out of proportion IMO.

 

Beane pretty much alluded to the WR as a problem by publically stating he tried for Waddle.  Then signed Cooks.

 

Beane didn't do well in addressing the WR problem left by the Diggs debacle.  But it looks like he is going to try and do something about it.

[folz]

25 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Vrabel did not squander half of a great QB's career. Vrabel did not embarrass himself with anything like the 13 second debacle, as part of that squandering process.  So I will go with this Vrabel is not a proven coaching champion.  Neither is McDermott. 

 

Did Vrabel squander Derrick Henry's best years? A top-5 RB of all time should have a ring by now.

 

And, yeah, that's your prerogative. You can go with whoever you think. I was just saying that there is no current metric to point to Vrabel being a better head coach than McDermott (as claimed by Dr.D). You could choose Vrabel over McD because you just want a change or because Sean made a blunder in a playoff game, whatever, but it still doesn't mean that Vrabel is the better coach. There is nothing to back that up at the moment. Sean has the better regular season record, the better playoff record, more playoff appearances, the better offensive rankings, the better defensive rankings---it's more than just that neither has won a championship yet.

 

And you guys need to get over 13 seconds already. Let it go. Things like that have happened to every good/great coach. Look at Sean Peyton's departures from the playoffs with Drew Brees and New Orleans (the Minnesota Miracle comes to mind, among many others). How about Andy Reid's exits in Philly (he was torn apart for bad game and clock management, etc.,  i.e. losing the game for the team). If you look at every coaches history, you will find moments like 13 seconds, and yes, even HOF coaches, and even in the playoffs. This belief that Sean is the only good coach to ever make a mistake, or at least the only coach that you will hold their mistake against them, is so tiring.

 

Plus, it depends on how you define squandering a career. Do Josh and Buffalo have a ring yet? No. But I have had a blast these last eight years watching the Bills. Doesn't mean I don't still want them to win it all, but not winning a Super Bowl is also not total failure. Breaking the drought, yes, the 13 second game---maybe the best playoff game ever played, the perfect playoff game vs. the Pats, Josh doing Josh things and breaking records, rallying together over the Damar incident, the battles with the Chiefs, our overall record and specifically our home record (that's a lot of fun games/wins we got to see)---I have enjoyed it all.

 

If nothing matters except a Super Bowl, I think you may be missing out on some of the joy of life. It is the journey, not the destination. Do I look back on the 90s Bills with loathing because they never won a Super Bowl? Nah, as heart-breaking as it was at the time, I look back on those years with so much fondness. It was a lot of fun and brought me a lot of enjoyment and good times with friends and family, despite never winning the big one. Again, I'm not saying that I don't care if we win one. I want that as much as any Bills fan, I just don't think everyone sucks (except Josh) and it was all pointless if we don't. And Yes, I do still think this regime can get us there (while I understand that probably the majority at this point no longer believe that).

[GunnerBill]

39 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I agree Beane is tied into the WR problem.  But the amount of heat he gets for letting the radio guy get under his skin gets taken out of proportion IMO.

 

Beane pretty much alluded to the WR as a problem by publically stating he tried for Waddle.  Then signed Cooks.

 

Beane didn't do well in addressing the WR problem left by the Diggs debacle.  But it looks like he is going to try and do something about it.

 

I don't give him credit for scrambling at the trade deadline for a mess of his own making.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

It’s disturbing to me how many fans I come across on social media (not necessarily this forum) are just happy to be relevant every year.  I call them “Face Painters”.  They’re more into wearing the latest team fashions, turning game days into a party, and bringing the old “let’s see you do better” argument whenever you dare question or criticize anything the team or front office does. I understand that you can’t win a Lombardi without being relevant, but being relevant isn’t the end game EVER 

[Chaos]

18 minutes ago, folz said:

Did Vrabel squander Derrick Henry's best years? A top-5 RB of all time should have a ring by now.

As Bills fans well know this is not a thing. Has never been a thing. Or we would be recollecting the championships won by OJ Simpson. 

[T.E.]

26 minutes ago, folz said:

And you guys need to get over 13 seconds already. Let it go. Things like that have happened to every good/great coach. Look at Sean Peyton's departures from the playoffs with Drew Brees and New Orleans (the Minnesota Miracle comes to mind, among many others). How about Andy Reid's exits in Philly (he was torn apart for bad game and clock management, etc.,  i.e. losing the game for the team). If you look at every coaches history, you will find moments like 13 seconds, and yes, even HOF coaches, and even in the playoffs.

We actually don't need to get over 13 Seconds. We had a future HOF QB on an all-time heater, literally playing better than any QB in postseason history, with a home AFC Championship game on the horizon, and it all went to hell because our head coach couldn't grasp basic time management.

 

There is a Lombardi Trophy that should be in the lobby of Orchard Park that instead currently sits in L.A. because of arguably the worst end-of-game coaching in NFL playoff history. That's a big deal, and no, something like that doesn't happen to every great coach.

Edited 3 minutes ago by T.E.

[Lionel Hutz]

11 minutes ago, folz said:

 

Did Vrabel squander Derrick Henry's best years? A top-5 RB of all time should have a ring by now.

 

And, yeah, that's your prerogative. You can go with whoever you think. I was just saying that there is no current metric to point to Vrabel being a better head coach than McDermott (as claimed by Dr.D). You could choose Vrabel over McD because you just want a change or because Sean made a blunder in a playoff game, whatever, but it still doesn't mean that Vrabel is the better coach. There is nothing to back that up at the moment. Sean has the better regular season record, the better playoff record, more playoff appearances, the better offensive rankings, the better defensive rankings---it's more than just that neither has won a championship yet.

 

And you guys need to get over 13 seconds already. Let it go. Things like that have happened to every good/great coach. Look at Sean Peyton's departures from the playoffs with Drew Brees and New Orleans (the Minnesota Miracle comes to mind, among many others). How about Andy Reid's exits in Philly (he was torn apart for bad game and clock management, etc.,  i.e. losing the game for the team). If you look at every coaches history, you will find moments like 13 seconds, and yes, even HOF coaches, and even in the playoffs. This belief that Sean is the only good coach to ever make a mistake, or at least the only coach that you will hold their mistake against them, is so tiring.

 

Plus, it depends on how you define squandering a career. Do Josh and Buffalo have a ring yet? No. But I have had a blast these last eight years watching the Bills. Doesn't mean I don't still want them to win it all, but not winning a Super Bowl is also not total failure. Breaking the drought, yes, the 13 second game---maybe the best playoff game ever played, the perfect playoff game vs. the Pats, Josh doing Josh things and breaking records, rallying together over the Damar incident, the battles with the Chiefs, our overall record and specifically our home record (that's a lot of fun games/wins we got to see)---I have enjoyed it all.

 

If nothing matters except a Super Bowl, I think you may be missing out on some of the joy of life. It is the journey, not the destination. Do I look back on the 90s Bills with loathing because they never won a Super Bowl? Nah, as heart-breaking as it was at the time, I look back on those years with so much fondness. It was a lot of fun and brought me a lot of enjoyment and good times with friends and family, despite never winning the big one. Again, I'm not saying that I don't care if we win one. I want that as much as any Bills fan, I just don't think everyone sucks (except Josh) and it was all pointless if we don't. And Yes, I do still think this regime can get us there (while I understand that probably the majority at this point no longer believe that).

 Beane, McD, and Pegula are thrilled to have fans like you - fans that are just happy to make the playoffs and will never criticize them. 

 

The Minneapolis Miracle was not a coaching blunder. Go watch the replay. There were two defenders next to Diggs who should have made a tackle but the first defender went for the hit too early and took out the second defender in the process. The only 21st century playoff coaching failure that tops the 13 second game was Pete Carroll not handing the ball to Marshawn in the SB.

[GoBills808]

26 minutes ago, folz said:

 

Did Vrabel squander Derrick Henry's best years? A top-5 RB of all time should have a ring by now.

 

And, yeah, that's your prerogative. You can go with whoever you think. I was just saying that there is no current metric to point to Vrabel being a better head coach than McDermott (as claimed by Dr.D). You could choose Vrabel over McD because you just want a change or because Sean made a blunder in a playoff game, whatever, but it still doesn't mean that Vrabel is the better coach. There is nothing to back that up at the moment. Sean has the better regular season record, the better playoff record, more playoff appearances, the better offensive rankings, the better defensive rankings---it's more than just that neither has won a championship yet.

 

And you guys need to get over 13 seconds already. Let it go. Things like that have happened to every good/great coach. Look at Sean Peyton's departures from the playoffs with Drew Brees and New Orleans (the Minnesota Miracle comes to mind, among many others). How about Andy Reid's exits in Philly (he was torn apart for bad game and clock management, etc.,  i.e. losing the game for the team). If you look at every coaches history, you will find moments like 13 seconds, and yes, even HOF coaches, and even in the playoffs. This belief that Sean is the only good coach to ever make a mistake, or at least the only coach that you will hold their mistake against them, is so tiring.

 

Plus, it depends on how you define squandering a career. Do Josh and Buffalo have a ring yet? No. But I have had a blast these last eight years watching the Bills. Doesn't mean I don't still want them to win it all, but not winning a Super Bowl is also not total failure. Breaking the drought, yes, the 13 second game---maybe the best playoff game ever played, the perfect playoff game vs. the Pats, Josh doing Josh things and breaking records, rallying together over the Damar incident, the battles with the Chiefs, our overall record and specifically our home record (that's a lot of fun games/wins we got to see)---I have enjoyed it all.

 

If nothing matters except a Super Bowl, I think you may be missing out on some of the joy of life. It is the journey, not the destination. Do I look back on the 90s Bills with loathing because they never won a Super Bowl? Nah, as heart-breaking as it was at the time, I look back on those years with so much fondness. It was a lot of fun and brought me a lot of enjoyment and good times with friends and family, despite never winning the big one. Again, I'm not saying that I don't care if we win one. I want that as much as any Bills fan, I just don't think everyone sucks (except Josh) and it was all pointless if we don't. And Yes, I do still think this regime can get us there (while I understand that probably the majority at this point no longer believe that).

this post should be exhibitA in the mcdermott cult of personality trial

 

'not winning a SB is not total failure' lol