Bills Don't have Receiver Problem, they have a perception problem-- Jim Kubiak BN

[starrymessenger]

3 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

I agree with Nephilim17's reply, and I'd add that we've made an intentional shift to multiple TE/HB offense which by default is going to de-emphasize boundary WR somewhat. 

 

That said, low returns on Keon, Samuel, and Palmer (and arguably even Shakir for what we extended him) means results are mixed at the very least. Injuries to Kincaid and Palmer haven't helped. 

 

But my original point was that we do in fact have a perception problem in addition to a (boundary) receiver problem because of the manner in which this stuff is being discussed (i.e. very agenda driven, lacking context from the standpoint of personnel groupings and offensive philosophy, and intentionally excluding discussion of our biggest investment in order to make a biased point.). This all comes back to people wanting to see Josh do well first and the team do well second. The whole dynamic reminds me so much of Lebron fans and it's getting really old fast.  

I don't always read the entire thread, especially when it's lengthy, before responding to a post and that's on me so apologies. I would however say that though I don't necessarily take issue with the personnel groupings or the offensive philosophy the lack of talent at the WR position is imo fatal to our chances for success against good teams who are able to defend the run. If you shut down Saquon Brown and Smith are quite capable of cleaning your clock. We can't come close to doing that because IMO we have neither a legit #1 or#2 receiver. They have clearly tried to sell Keon as a reasonable #1 facsimile which was a ludicrous expectation and which calls their competence into question. 
As for Josh he does need to play better. He used to lead the league in efficiency when under pressure and he is operating at about 50% of that so far this year. You do have to wonder how much of it is because of his WRs and play design that is influenced by the lack of talent. It's fair to mention that he used the word "trust" seven times in his presser. 
If he throws for 250+ yards, three tds and no picks tomorrow I'll shut up. At least for a while.

[HappyDays]

26 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Not necessarily. Burrow did about as well as a QB can do last year (with ample help at boundary wr) and didn't even make the playoffs.

 

I thought we were talking about offense. When Allen does well the offense does well. With Allen and this run game we're automatically a top 5ish offense. But some of us believe we need to be the #1 offense to win a championship. That caliber of offense isn't possible with this WR room, period. I want Allen to have the capability of performing at his absolute best because that's the only way we're going to win it all. We've had three games this year where we needed the passing offense to be at its absolute best on critical drives, and they delivered on one out of those three. That's not good enough. We can talk in circles all day about how Kincaid technically qualifies as a WR or whatever else, but at the end of the day this offense hasn't gotten it done when it needed to and that's directly tied to the receiving weapons.

[VW82]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

I thought we were talking about offense. When Allen does well the offense does well. With Allen and this run game we're automatically a top 5ish offense. But some of us believe we need to be the #1 offense to win a championship. That caliber of offense isn't possible with this WR room, period. I want Allen to have the capability of performing at his absolute best because that's the only way we're going to win it all. We've had three games this year where we needed the passing offense to be at its absolute best on critical drives, and they delivered on one out of those three. That's not good enough. We can talk in circles all day about how Kincaid technically qualifies as a WR or whatever else, but at the end of the day this offense hasn't gotten it done when it needed to and that's directly tied to the receiving weapons.

 

Ok well again last year Cincy was the #1 passing offense and top 5 overall in points and missed the playoffs, so being a top offense does not mean championship. 

 

Also, last week Josh played poorly and we scored 40 points, so saying when Allen does well the offense does well isn't entirely true; if anything, it's more like we've rebuilt the offense such that it CAN do well even on days when Josh doesn't have it which we've seen more of this year. 

 

I agree we're probably not good enough to win at the highest levels. Missing on Keon, Samuel, and Palmer is rough, and I don't trust McD vs. the best QBs. I just don't know how we fix it at this point. We're cap committed all over the place and teams aren't just going to give us their #1 wr on a silver platter (if we could even fit them in in the first place). This team needs to figure things out with the guys they have. 

Edited 16 hours ago by VW82

[TheBeaneBandit]

7 minutes ago, VW82 said:

 

Ok well again last year Cincy was the #1 passing offense and top 5 overall in points and missed the playoffs.

 

Also, last week Josh played poorly and we scored 40 points, so saying when Allen does well the offense does well isn't entirely true; if anything, it's more like we've rebuilt the offense such that it CAN do well even on days when Josh doesn't have it which we've seen more of this year. 

 

I agree we're probably not good enough to win at the highest levels. Missing on Keon, Samuel, and Palmer is rough, and I don't trust McD vs. the best QBs. I just don't know how we fix it at this point. We're cap committed all over the place and teams aren't just going to give us their #1 wr on a silver platter (if we could even fit them in in the first place).

That's why I'm just like they draft pretty poorly anyways.....not just at WR.....freaking send the picks on a golden platter and get the guy.

[SC STATE NUPE]

I do think games are officiated off of perception as well. Like I felt in that Atlanta game, their secondary was very physical and handsy on our guys. That holding, grabbing, and turning matters in a game of inches and seconds. So I just feel because our guys are supposedly slow receivers, they don’t get the benefit of doubt a lot of times. I don’t think the Colts receivers are that much better than ours! The Patriots too! That Diggs game on us was an anomaly and revenge game for him. I still think it’s Brady’s plays more than anything…

[Rockinon]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

I thought we were talking about offense. When Allen does well the offense does well. With Allen and this run game we're automatically a top 5ish offense. But some of us believe we need to be the #1 offense to win a championship. That caliber of offense isn't possible with this WR room, period. I want Allen to have the capability of performing at his absolute best because that's the only way we're going to win it all. We've had three games this year where we needed the passing offense to be at its absolute best on critical drives, and they delivered on one out of those three. That's not good enough. We can talk in circles all day about how Kincaid technically qualifies as a WR or whatever else, but at the end of the day this offense hasn't gotten it done when it needed to and that's directly tied to the receiving weapons.

The Bills are #4 in points/game, #3 in yards/game. If the passing game simply improved by a couple of catches per game, there's no reason to think they can't achieve #1 by season's end. They aren't that far off and I think you might be undervaluing the strength of the run game. Players like Gilliam and Hawes are knocking it out of the park blocking for the run. We've had Gilliam for a long time and up until late last year he wasn't used much because the Bills put more WRs on the field. Schematically, these 12 and 13 personnel groupings are very dangerous because not only do the Bills have a high degree of success running the ball, they also have a high degree of success passing. I get the desire for a top WR, but the production in passing needs to come from non-WRs. TEs and RBs out of this grouping need to step up. A little play action would help too. It just blows my mind that these things aren't leaned into. Still, the offense isn't far off from being the best in the league. Brady could learn from some of the Patriots offenses with Tom Brady. I'd like to see other TEs besides Kincaid catching passes.

 

I like the scheme as far as the versatility of being able to run and pass out of these formations. It does leave you fewer WRs but not fewer receivers. Having good blocking TEs is great but I don't think the TEs are being utilized enough as pass catchers. It also forces defenses to defend both run and pass and makes it impossible to know presnap what the play will be. It wouldn't hurt to see Cook catch a pass once in a while either. Whens the last time that has happened?

Edited 15 hours ago by Rockinon

[milfandcookies]

2 hours ago, Rockinon said:

I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. When your defense isn't getting stops it puts more pressure on your offense to make every drive count.

seems like we never stop anyone. It’s either a turnover or they score.
 

Turnovers are good but I would like it if they just punt it back to us sometimes 

[Livinginthepast]

3 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Josh Allen has completed the most deep passes in the NFL out of any quarterback the last 3 years combined

 

What?? Combined??!!!! 

 

Sorry? Your source on that?

 

Google AI says

 

Recent NFL deep ball completion percentages vary, but Tua Tagovailoa led the league in 2024 with 72.9%, while Joe Burrow holds the highest career percentage (minimum 1500 attempts) at 68.6%. A pass is generally considered "deep" if it travels 20 or more yards downfield, encompassing various routes beyond just bombs. 

Top Performers (as of late 2025):

2024 Season (Leader): Tua Tagovailoa (72.9%)

Career (Leader): Joe Burrow (68.6%, min. 1500 attempts)

Last 3 Years (Tied for High): Jalen Coker, Adonai Mitchell, Breece Hall (100.0%, though likely with very few attempts) 

[milfandcookies]

2 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

 

What?? Combined??!!!! 

 

Sorry? Your source on that?

 

Google AI says

 

Recent NFL deep ball completion percentages vary, but Tua Tagovailoa led the league in 2024 with 72.9%, while Joe Burrow holds the highest career percentage (minimum 1500 attempts) at 68.6%. A pass is generally considered "deep" if it travels 20 or more yards downfield, encompassing various routes beyond just bombs. 

Top Performers (as of late 2025):

2024 Season (Leader): Tua Tagovailoa (72.9%)

Career (Leader): Joe Burrow (68.6%, min. 1500 attempts)

Last 3 Years (Tied for High): Jalen Coker, Adonai Mitchell, Breece Hall (100.0%, though likely with very few attempts) 

there’s no way thats true. Dude is making it up 

[Buffalo716]

27 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

 

What?? Combined??!!!! 

 

Sorry? Your source on that?

 

Google AI says

 

Recent NFL deep ball completion percentages vary, but Tua Tagovailoa led the league in 2024 with 72.9%, while Joe Burrow holds the highest career percentage (minimum 1500 attempts) at 68.6%. A pass is generally considered "deep" if it travels 20 or more yards downfield, encompassing various routes beyond just bombs. 

Top Performers (as of late 2025):

2024 Season (Leader): Tua Tagovailoa (72.9%)

Career (Leader): Joe Burrow (68.6%, min. 1500 attempts)

Last 3 Years (Tied for High): Jalen Coker, Adonai Mitchell, Breece Hall (100.0%, though likely with very few attempts) 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-best-deep-passers-pff-grades-epa-per-play

 

"The other familiar name is Josh Allen, who owns the fifth-best deep PFF passing grade since 2022 due to his incredible arm and playmaking ability. The reason he isn’t at the very top is that, despite leading the NFL in deep completions and big-time throws in this timeframe, "

 

Has completed the most deep balls since 2022... 

 

Combine 2022-2023 2024 not one single quarterback has thrown more deep ball completions then Josh Allen 

 

All of mahomes Deep balls completed combined not as much 

 

All of Lamar Jackson's deep balls completed combined not as much 

 

All of Herbert's deep balls completed combined over that same 3-year stretch not as much

24 minutes ago, milfandcookies said:

there’s no way thats true. Dude is making it up 

Really cuz look at my post under yours I got receipts 

 

I don't make up statistics on this website I prove them

Edited 14 hours ago by Buffalo716

[milfandcookies]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-ranking-best-deep-passers-pff-grades-epa-per-play

 

"The other familiar name is Josh Allen, who owns the fifth-best deep PFF passing grade since 2022 due to his incredible arm and playmaking ability. The reason he isn’t at the very top is that, despite leading the NFL in deep completions and big-time throws in this timeframe, "

 

Has completed the most deep balls since 2022

Really cuz look at my post under yours I got receipts 

 

I don't make up statistics on this website I prove them

you are just wrong 

[Buffalo716]

11 minutes ago, milfandcookies said:

you are just wrong 

No you're just hating on the bills on the threads 

 

That proved it I said exactly what I said 

 

Josh Allen does have the most deep completions in the NFL since 2022 out of any NFL quarterback 

 

If you combined all of mahomes deep ball completions for those 3 years less than Allen 

 

 

If you combined all of burrows deep ball completions for 3 years less than Allen 

 

If you combined all of Herbert's deep ball throws for 3 years less than Allen

 

That's not AI that is statistical tracking.. you're wrong

 

You can nitpick my grammar all you want cuz that's the only thing you got but Josh Allen does have the most deep ball completions in the NFL since 2022

Edited 15 hours ago by Buffalo716

[milfandcookies]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

No you're just hating on the bills on the threads 

 

That proved it I said exactly what I said 

 

Josh Allen does have the most deep completions in the NFL since 2022

 

That's not AI that is statistical tracking.. you're wrong

you said combined. You are lying now 

[Buffalo716]

30 minutes ago, milfandcookies said:

you said combined. You are lying now 

Yes the last three seasons this would be the fourth Josh has had the most deep ball completions COMBINED 

 

Not more than the entire NFL combined.. quarterback for quarterback 3-year stretch Josh has more deep ball completions

 

He has more combined than Patrick mahomes 

 

He has more combined than Joe burrow 

 

He has more combined than Lamar Jackson 

 

He has more combined than Herbert 

 

Misconstrue that

 

Edited 14 hours ago by Buffalo716

[milfandcookies]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

Yes the last three seasons this would be the fourth Josh has had the most deep ball completions 

 

He had the most from 2022 to 2024 and nobody has surpassed him in this season

I now feel dumber.
 

Combined means you take all the passes completed “combined” and put them up against Allen. 

 

it doesn’t mean whatever you are trying to say now

[Buffalo716]

20 minutes ago, milfandcookies said:

I now feel dumber.
 

Combined means you take all the passes completed “combined” and put them up against Allen. 

 

it doesn’t mean whatever you are trying to say now

 

Just stop 

 

I did not say Josh Allen has more deep ball completions combined then the rest of the league 

 

I said Josh Allen has more Deep ball completions combined than any quarterback in the NFL the last 3 years

 

Meaning more than Patrick mahomes all his deep balls combined 

 

More than Jackson and his deep balls combined 

 

More than burrow and his deep balls

 

Not every single deep ball completed combined keep misconstruing my words

Edited 14 hours ago by Buffalo716

[milfandcookies]

Just now, Buffalo716 said:

 

Just stop 

 

I did not say Josh Allen has more deep ball completions combined then the rest of the league 

 

I said Josh Allen has more Depot completions combined than any quarterback in the NFL the last multiple years

Uhhhh…. Right….

[CincyBillsFan]

6 hours ago, VW82 said:

Kincaid lines up in the slot and even out wide some (approx. 68% of his total snaps). When he's inside, he's still frequently running routes. There is not a huge difference in his case.

 

But even if you want to insist on making this distinction without much of a difference, the reality is that he's still a significant part of the passing offense that Beane invested in, and he belongs in all these conversations about the passing game. Except, no one pushing the no receiving talent agenda ever acknowledges this and it's super disingenuous.  

I can't speak for what others post only what I post and I have always acknowledged that Kincaid is an important and effective part of the passing game. But IMO it is disingenuous to claim that a TE, no matter how good they are in the passing game, is the same as a WR. They have very different skill sets and responsibilities in a passing attack.  

 

And there is no "agenda" in claiming that the Bills have a very poor WR room.  It's a statement of fact bolstered by the performance on the field.  That doesn't mean I don't believe that once we are fully healthy and if young players like Coleman progress the Bills won't have a decent WR group.  But RIGHT NOW and RIGHT HERE they do not.  If you're looking for posters with agendas, I would suggest you look at those that argue we don't have a critical WR issue.

 

 

 

 

[Donuts and Doritos]

 

Thanks Jim Kubiak, I see it better now.

[Scott7975]

5 hours ago, milfandcookies said:

you really think so? Kincaid kinda sucks to me. But that’s just my opinion 

 

I think he is above average/very good. He isn't Kelce but who is?