Bills Don't have Receiver Problem, they have a perception problem-- Jim Kubiak BN

[VW82]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Kincaid is not a WR, not even close.  He is a very good pass catching TE.  There is a huge difference between the two.

 

 

Kincaid lines up in the slot and even out wide some (approx. 68% of his total snaps). When he's inside, he's still frequently running routes. There is not a huge difference in his case.

 

But even if you want to insist on making this distinction without much of a difference, the reality is that he's still a significant part of the passing offense that Beane invested in, and he belongs in all these conversations about the passing game. Except, no one pushing the no receiving talent agenda ever acknowledges this and it's super disingenuous.  

Edited 16 hours ago by VW82

[starrymessenger]

8 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Kincaid lines up in the slot and even out wide some (approx. 68% of his total snaps). When he's inside, he's still frequently running routes. There is not a huge difference in his case.

 

But even if you want to insist on making this distinction without much of a difference, the reality is that he's still a significant part of the passing offense that Beane invested in, and he belongs in all these conversations about the passing game. Except, no one pushing the no receiving talent agenda ever acknowledges this and it's super disingenuous.  

So if indeed Beane has invested in the passing offence is it that he has invested poorly? Or do you feel that we have the talent we need to succeed? Or do you actually think that we are good at this?

[Since1981]

BB messed up the WR position. Not sure how to argue it other than, DOH!

[Nephilim17]

40 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

So if indeed Beane has invested in the passing offence is it that he has invested poorly? Or do you feel that we have the talent we need to succeed? Or do you actually think that we are good at this?

I don't think it's binary: great or horrible. Kincaid is looking like a hit, Coleman is trending to be a miss. Samuel is a miss. Palmer may be decent, but probably no better than an average number 2 at best.

Beane's done ok, not great, not horribly at getting Josh weapons. The problem is OK probably isn't good enough to win a Super Bowl. And Josh turns 30 next spring so time is running out.

Edited 16 hours ago by Nephilim17

[90sBills]

19 hours ago, Buffalo716 said:

Well I'm saying him and worthy are both equally disappointments so it's not like one's a better weapon than the other

Do you really think Worthy is a disappointment for KC? He was a spark to their offense when he came back. 

[milfandcookies]

18 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

I don't think it's binary: great or horrible. Kincaid is looking like a hit, Coleman is trending to be a miss. Samuel is a miss. Palmer may be decent, but probably no better than an average number 2 at best.

Beane's done ok, not great, not horribly at getting Josh weapons. The problem is OK probably isn't good enough to win a Super Bowl. And Josh turns 30 next spring so time is running out.

you really think so? Kincaid kinda sucks to me. But that’s just my opinion 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, starrymessenger said:

It's certainly true that WR evals are generally hard, but the same can be said about any position. But while not all positions are represented with equal strength in any draft, there are usually a handful of players at pretty much every position who can be expected to succeed with reasonable certainty. If you are going to land one of those it helps a lot if you are picking lower in the order which typically we don't do. And since we don't pick early we are often having to decide whether to move down in the draft. Well not only did the Bills not make a move for BTJ but the same can be said about Addison, who is a solid #2, and who the Bills were reputed to be high on. The Bills really do not prioritize the position in the way that many other teams do, WR being in the minds of many a premium position, especially if you happen to have an elite quarterback. Other than Keon their only move in the last draft was a throw away 7th round pick. 
The Coleman pick also suggests that it's not just that they tend to place emphasis elsewhere. It's also that they appear not to know or know how to develop wideouts either. Keon is a raw, developmental talent. Personally I continue to think that he could be a productive player but not given the responsibilities he's been assigned. They are not doing him any favours even if he shares some blame. 
It's pretty obvious that Brady's scheme and current philosophy is not conducive to having an effective passing attack. That's why Diggs wanted out IMO.  Eagles are also run first these days but they still line up with two WRs who by themselves are capable of breaking a game open (which can only make Saquon even more effective). Brady had a great passing attack at LSU so I'm not sure he's to blame. He doesn't have the horses, so it's chicken and egg. The thinking, such as it is, comes from elsewhere, higher up. Just guessing but I suspect McD has the most to say in how these decisions are made. 
I hope that they land Shaheen. Given that he is a rental for which they would have to overpay, the move makes the most sense if they immediately enter into discussions with his agent. He should be their #2 going forward. Prioritize finding a #1 by any means and if you are successful you've got a juggernaut for an offence.
 

I like this post for multiple reasons.

 But let me point out just one.

 Bills think they can develop WRs. Shakir might have been the unicorn , because Keon is not taking to it. I have little faith in quick and certifiable player development when drafting WRs etc from Bills staff

I feel they need a proven commodity. from a Trade.

 

 Go for it .

1 hour ago, VW82 said:

Kincaid lines up in the slot and even out wide some (approx. 68% of his total snaps). When he's inside, he's still frequently running routes. There is not a huge difference in his case.

 

But even if you want to insist on making this distinction without much of a difference, the reality is that he's still a significant part of the passing offense that Beane invested in, and he belongs in all these conversations about the passing game. Except, no one pushing the no receiving talent agenda ever acknowledges this and it's super disingenuous.  

He was drafted for his catching prowess, and ability to beat seam coverages

[starrymessenger]

30 minutes ago, Nephilim17 said:

I don't think it's binary: great or horrible. Kincaid is looking like a hit, Coleman is trending to be a miss. Samuel is a miss. Palmer may be decent, but probably no better than an average number 2 at best.

Beane's done ok, not great, not horribly at getting Josh weapons. The problem is OK probably isn't good enough to win a Super Bowl. And Josh turns 30 next spring so time is running out.

Maybe Palmer can ascend to #2 but really imo he's a solid #3, which I think is how he's generally been considered. The remaining spare parts (excluding Shavers) I think could be serviceable and more productive than they have been. But if this is true it only goes to show how deficient our WR room is. It means you are lacking a true #1 and #2 receiver, which many other teams have. That is pretty bad. I mean just imagine if you could add both Olave and Shaheen. The Bills passing attack would potentially be devastating. That's why if Shaheen is who many think he is we would be well advised to go hard at him. You'd still need a #1 receiver, and they are hard to find, but it would be worth seriously prioritizing that effort imo.

4 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

I like this post for multiple reasons.

 But let me point out just one.

 Bills think they can develop WRs. Shakir might have been the unicorn , because Keon is not taking to it. I have little faith in quick and certifiable player development when drafting WRs etc from Bills staff

I feel they need a proven commodity. from a Trade.

 

 Go for it .

He was drafted for his catching prowess, and ability to beat seam coverages

Shakir was a great pick in the fifth, but it's worth remembering that many observers at the time saw him as round 3 worthy, including Greg Cosell. Given what we know where do you think he'd go in a redraft?

[3rdand12]

6 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

Maybe Palmer can ascend to #2 but really imo he's a solid #3, which I think is how he's generally been considered. The remaining spare parts (excluding Shavers) I think could be serviceable and more productive than they have been. But if this is true it only goes to show how deficient our WR room is. It means you are lacking a true #1 and #2 receiver, which many other teams have. That is pretty bad. I mean just imagine if you could add both Olave and Shaheen. The Bills passing attack would potentially be devastating. That's why if Shaheen is who many think he is we would be well advised to go hard at him. You'd still need a #1 receiver, and they are hard to find, but it would be worth seriously prioritizing that effort imo.

Shakir was a great pick in the fifth, but it's worth remembering that many observers at the time saw him as round 3 worthy, including Greg Cosell. Given what we know where do you think he'd go in a redraft?

I don't do hindsight  lol

But , he was not projected as an X receiver. He did develop quite well under Bills tutelage though. anomaly perhaps 😋

[starrymessenger]

2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

I don't do hindsight  lol

But , he was not projected as an X receiver. He did develop quite well under Bills tutelage though. anomaly perhaps 😋

Well I agree he was always projected as a slot who could occasionally line up outside. He has developed 

nicely of course but he's pretty much the same player type as he was in college. 

Edited 15 hours ago by starrymessenger

[Buffalo716]

50 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

Do you really think Worthy is a disappointment for KC? He was a spark to their offense when he came back. 

Considering they both average 38 yards a game... I don't think there's much difference besides one's fast and one's not

[Livinginthepast]

On 10/30/2025 at 8:52 AM, First Round Bust said:

WGR AM show brought up an interesting point yesterday...historically thrwoing the long ball (touch, loft, accuracy) has not been one of Josh strenghts...a point I have made over the years as well..partly his fault, partly the WR issue...resulting the OC play-calling not having confidence in that play and talking himself out of it ??? flame on...    

Josh is considered to be the best QB the Bills have ever had but Kelly was still a better deep ball passer. Back when Josh was a rookie he worked with Jordan Palmer who really improved his throwing motion and mechanics and it really seemed that deep ball throws would improve. I think this part of his game never evolved since. Had Dabol stayed I think he would have challenged Josh with a more complex offense and we would have seen this part of his game get better. But Dorsey and Brady after him, seem to be scared to try.

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

Josh is considered to be the best QB the Bills have ever had but Kelly was still a better deep ball passer. Back when Josh was a rookie he worked with Jordan Palmer who really improved his throwing motion and mechanics and it really seemed that deep ball throws would improve. I think this part of his game never evolved since. Had Dabol stayed I think he would have challenged Josh with a more complex offense and we would have seen this part of his game get better. But Dorsey and Brady after him, seem to be scared to try.

Josh Allen has completed the most deep passes in the NFL out of any quarterback the last 3 years combined

[90sBills]

18 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

Considering they both average 38 yards a game... I don't think there's much difference besides one's fast and one's not

There’s more contribution than just stats. Worthy usually requires a safety to shade his side leaving space for others. 

[Buffalo716]

2 minutes ago, 90sBills said:

There’s more contribution than just stats. Worthy usually requires a safety to shade his side leaving space for others. 

 

I mean we used the Sammy Watkins decoy thing for years to say why he's not putting up stats lol just wasn't what we thought

 

And the bills throw to 8 different guys.. end of the day they have the same stats

 

I think Coleman has more 100-yard games in the regular season 2 after a year and a half in the NFL

Edited 14 hours ago by Buffalo716

[90sBills]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

I mean we used the Sammy Watkins decoy thing for years to say why he's not putting up stats lol just wasn't what we thought

 

And the bills throw to 8 different guys.. end of the day they have the same stats

 

I think Coleman has more 100-yard games in the regular season 2 after a year and a half in the NFL

It’s hard to say Worthy isn’t a big part of their offense when they instantly became dynamic when he came back. I think he has a bigger impact to KC’s offense than Coleman is to ours right now.

[VW82]

2 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

So if indeed Beane has invested in the passing offence is it that he has invested poorly? Or do you feel that we have the talent we need to succeed? Or do you actually think that we are good at this?

 

I agree with Nephilim17's reply, and I'd add that we've made an intentional shift to multiple TE/HB offense which by default is going to de-emphasize boundary WR somewhat. 

 

That said, low returns on Keon, Samuel, and Palmer (and arguably even Shakir for what we extended him) means results are mixed at the very least. Injuries to Kincaid and Palmer haven't helped. 

 

But my original point was that we do in fact have a perception problem in addition to a (boundary) receiver problem because of the manner in which this stuff is being discussed (i.e. very agenda driven, lacking context from the standpoint of personnel groupings and offensive philosophy, and intentionally excluding discussion of our biggest investment in order to make a biased point.). This all comes back to people wanting to see Josh do well first and the team do well second. The whole dynamic reminds me so much of Lebron fans and it's getting really old fast.  

[HappyDays]

Just now, VW82 said:

This all comes back to people wanting to see Josh do well first and the team do well second.

 

These are one in the same.

[VW82]

2 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

These are one in the same.

 

Not necessarily. Burrow did about as well as a QB can do last year (with ample help at boundary wr) and didn't even make the playoffs.

[Rockinon]

On 10/30/2025 at 9:41 AM, vincec said:

Absolutely. When your offense is getting stopped there is more pressure on your defense irregardless of your offensive philosophy. The issue in the 90s was supposedly that the defense didn’t have time to rest if the offense went three and out, or similar, while running hurry up. However, if those defenses got off the field more consistently on third downs then they wouldn’t be so tired.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong angle. When your defense isn't getting stops it puts more pressure on your offense to make every drive count.