billsbackto81 Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 5 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said: Dumb contracts by owners don't equal nfl success in the spirit the thread is describing. Anyway, Rosen made 19 million for 16 starts. I'll give you that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 Our own Zay Jones… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sierra Foothills Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 18 hours ago, GunnerBill said: LJ Collier Jordyn Brooks Germain Ifedi D'Wayne Eskridge There is a reason I call the worst pick section of my day 1 Debriefs the "John Schneider award". A bit more retro - Darrius Heyward-Bey of the Raiders. In fairness, Schneider's had some really good drafts too. 17 hours ago, Chaos said: Jack Campbell and Jaymr Gibbs were reaches in the first round, but both appear to be high floor guys and should have full NFL careers. The last thing I want to do is re-start the Campbell debate. I just want to point out that the two players considered the biggest reaches of round one of this year's draft were taken by the same team. 17 hours ago, The Jokeman said: Bruce Irvin. 16 hours ago, Chaos said: At the conclusion of the pre-draft process, Irvin was projected to be a second or third round pick by NFL draft experts and scouts. While he showed superior speed and athleticism, many analysts and draft experts had him a second round draft prospect due to his numerous off the field issues he had throughout his youth and time at West Virginia. He was ranked the fifth best outside linebacker in the draft by NFLDraftScout.com. https://web.archive.org/web/20120423194924/http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=108840&draftyear=2012&genpos=OLB Bruce Irvin was taken 15th overall and has played 12 years in the league including last year. He has 54 career sacks and a Super Bowl win. No All-Pro or Pro Bowls. I feel he was misused both in college and in the pros. 15 hours ago, gonzo1105 said: Sebastian Janikowski I always felt that Janikowski should have been a Buffalo Bill. 14 hours ago, Chaos said: I know he was not a fan favorite when drafted. Where was he projected to be drafted to make him a reach? 1 hour ago, Einstein said: Mahomes, by far. He was usually listed around the 30 to 40th best player on the board in most rankings. Chiefs took him in the top 15. Mahomes was taken 10th overall. Mitchell Trubisky was taken 2nd and DeShaun Watson 12th. They were the only QBs in that draft considered to be 1st rounders. Being that it was 2017, we had by then reached the point in history where the top rated QBs were not going to slide far. 34 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said: Pretty much every Mayock pick was a reach. Almost all of them sucked. Kind of the opposite of this thread. I feel bad for Mayock because there's no question in my mind that it was Gruden pulling the strings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 18 hours ago, Chaos said: He was actually mocked as high as #1 overall pre-draft. Maybe the trade up price was viewed as steep, and maybe the wrong Josh morons, skewed your view, but being picked at 7 was not broadly considered a reach. For many no, but there were lots of Allen skeptics on this board and in the national media. Hell even after year 2 there were skeptics. Allen is still the outlier when it comes to improving completion percentage when going from college to NFL 3 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said: In fairness, Schneider's had some really good drafts too. The last thing I want to do is re-start the Campbell debate. I just want to point out that the two players considered the biggest reaches of round one of this year's draft were taken by the same team. Bruce Irvin was taken 15th overall and has played 12 years in the league including last year. He has 54 career sacks and a Super Bowl win. No All-Pro or Pro Bowls. I feel he was misused both in college and in the pros. I always felt that Janikowski should have been a Buffalo Bill. Mahomes was taken 10th overall. Mitchell Trubisky was taken 2nd and DeShaun Watson 12th. They were the only QBs in that draft considered to be 1st rounders. Being that it was 2017, we had by then reached the point in history where the top rated QBs were not going to slide far. I feel bad for Mayock because there's no question in my mind that it was Gruden pulling the strings. Why do you say that? He sucked as a draft analyst too. Look no further than the worst draft pick of all time Jamarcus Russell 17 hours ago, The Jokeman said: Bruce Irvin. Excellent example. Seattle was ridiculed for this pick. He has had a very solid if not spectacular career. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted April 30, 2023 Author Share Posted April 30, 2023 4 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: Hell even after year 2 there were skeptics. Being skepitcal of a pick succeeding has nothing at all to do with being a reach. I am skeptical Bryce Young (too small) CJ Stroud (poor cognitive test results, Ohio State QB), or Anthony Richardson (poor college production) will succeed in the NFL. However none of them were a draft reach. Their draft position aligned with the public consensus fairly closely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 16 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said: Probably doesn't fit the mold exactly as you are looking for...but I would make the case for Mario Williams first overall. How is he a "reach" given he was a top 10 draft prospect...because when the Texans and 49ers faced off in week 17 to end the season, it was dubbed the "Reggie Bush" bowl with the loser getting the first overall pick which was "supposed" to be Bush by a landslide to go first overall. I mean that was the most talked about game between two terrible teams than I can ever remember leading up to it. More importantly, the Texans were 4 years into the awful David Carr era and badly needed a QB too with both Vince Young and Matt Leinart there as well. Then they shocked the world and made what many considered a laughing stock pick of Mario Williams over Bush...and over a QB such as Young or Leinart. But, Mario Williams was the only player out of all those guys to have long and excellent career. I get this isn't the traditional reach given Mario was gonna go in the top 10, but it was one of the most ridiculed picks I can remember in modern draft history. And its also the one where the player taken had a substantially better career than all of the other players they were allegedly "supposed" to take. Good post! If it wasn't to be Bush everyone thought Young might be the choice given the Texas history. I think the other ridicule here is that they probably could have moved down a spot or two and still gotten Williams. It took a few years as Bush was good and Young won ROY their rookie years but soon it was obvious Williams was the best player. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 9 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said: Being that it was 2017, we had by then reached the point in history where the top rated QBs were not going to slide far. Im not talking about a slide. Mahomes was listed in the 30-40 range on most people’s draft boards. Example: 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 2 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said: John Schneider? Well besides building Super Bowl caliber teams he had a few extraordinary drafts: 2010 SEATTLE SEAHAWKS 1(6): OT Russell Okung 1(14): S Earl Thomas 2(60): WR Golden Tate 4(111): CB Walter Thurmond 4(127): EDGE E.J. Wilson 5(133): S Kam Chancellor 6(185): TE Anthony McCoy 7(236): LB Dexter Davis 7(245): TE Jameson Konz 2012 SEATTLE SEAHAWKS 1(15): EDGE Bruce Irvin 2(47): LB Bobby Wagner 3(75): QB Russell Wilson 4(106): RB Robert Turbin 4(114): DT Jaye Howard 5(154): LB Korey Toomer 6(172): CB Jeremy Lane 6(181): DB Winston Guy 7(225): OG J.R. Sweezy 7(232): EDGE Greg Scruggs Also guys like DK Metcalf and last year's draft is looking excellent. I was responding to the Mike Mayock comments Schneider is as good as any of them. He has had some great picks and some misses. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sierra Foothills Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 14 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said: I feel bad for Mayock because there's no question in my mind that it was Gruden pulling the strings. 10 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: Why do you say that? He sucked as a draft analyst too. Look no further than the worst draft pick of all time Jamarcus Russell I didn't say Mayock was a good talent evaluator. I said I felt sorry for him because what happened with the Raiders is IMO more a reflection of Jon Gruden. I believe this because he was hired by Gruden. 2 minutes ago, Einstein said: Im not talking about a slide. Mahomes was listed in the 30-40 range on most people’s draft boards. Example: As @Kirby Jackson already pointed out, Mahomes was a late riser. I don't recall there being much surprise that he was taken. Maybe I'm wrong but I remember thinking that I'd be good if the Bills took him at #10. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 6 minutes ago, Sierra Foothills said: As @Kirby Jackson already pointed out, Mahomes was a late riser. It was definitely a bit of a reach at the time… USA Today gave the Chiefs a C- for picking Mahomes. “Calling Mahomes a project is a major understatement. He’s nowhere near ready to play in the NFL.” SB Nation: “My grade on what Kansas City did in this draft is due to my opinion that they gave up way too much to trade up for quarterback Patrick Mahomes in the first round.” Sporting News: “Trading up for Mahomes, a big-armed gunslinger who really doesn’t mesh with the true mentality as Alex Smith’s successor, set up a bad tone in this draft.” 1 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 22 minutes ago, Einstein said: It was definitely a bit of a reach at the time… USA Today gave the Chiefs a C- for picking Mahomes. “Calling Mahomes a project is a major understatement. He’s nowhere near ready to play in the NFL.” SB Nation: “My grade on what Kansas City did in this draft is due to my opinion that they gave up way too much to trade up for quarterback Patrick Mahomes in the first round.” Sporting News: “Trading up for Mahomes, a big-armed gunslinger who really doesn’t mesh with the true mentality as Alex Smith’s successor, set up a bad tone in this draft.” Stephen A is the second dumbest person on TV preceded by Skip Bayless. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted April 30, 2023 Author Share Posted April 30, 2023 5 hours ago, BarleyNY said: Iggles got ripped for Jalen Hurts. Not really. Most every players has someone criticizing. PFF and Football Outsiders both proclaimed it a great pick. Hurts was exected to be a third round pick, he went at 53 overall. He certainly has out performed his draft position. But that is not what the thread is about. Hurts does not really qualify as a reach. https://www.pff.com/news/draft-jalen-hurts-wasnt-a-good-pick-by-the-philadelphia-eagles-he-was-a-great-one 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaos Posted April 30, 2023 Author Share Posted April 30, 2023 No. Mahomes was a consenus first round pick. Ajdusting for positional value, he was a bit of a reach at 10. But he is far from the biggest reach to succeed. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 49 minutes ago, Einstein said: Im not talking about a slide. Mahomes was listed in the 30-40 range on most people’s draft boards. Example: Yikes behind Kizer? Damn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 33 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said: Yikes behind Kizer? Damn Yeah I don’t think most people remember that Mahomes was thought of as a high 2nd or low 1st round pick up until a few weeks before the draft and he was no where near a top 12 pick until the draft itself. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Low Positive Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 I did a bit of digging. In the era before video scouting was possible, small-school picks like Mean Joe Green and Andre Reed were considered reaches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 45 minutes ago, Chaos said: No. Mahomes was a consenus first round pick. Ajdusting for positional value, he was a bit of a reach at 10. But he is far from the biggest reach to succeed. I doubt any fanbase was more in on Mahomes than Bills fans either. He was already getting hyped here on TSW in June of 2016. @thebandit27 was all over it. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steptide Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 Not sure where Daniel Jones will end up by the end of his career, but right now he's on this path 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 17 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said: All kidding aside...he did have a 10 year NFL career with 3 Pro Bowls. Made a ton of money doing it. Yeah, I'd classify his career as greatly successful. 16 hours ago, Chaos said: I know he was not a fan favorite when drafted. Where was he projected to be drafted to make him a reach? 16 hours ago, Chaos said: Whitner had a very solid career and definitely was a successful player. However…everyone and their mom would have bet the house Haloti Ngata was going to be our pick at 8. It was as big a no brainer as there can be in a draft. Bills took a guy that was expected to be a late first or second round player at 8 overall. So can’t say Whitner was a bust like a lot of people here would say who never got over passing on Ngata as he had a pretty solid career and better than a lot of guys who went after him and even before him. But the reach here did not have a better career than the guy everyone said we should have taken. Ngata was amongst the best players from this draft, and arguably the best DT in the league at times during his career. So while the Whitner reach did work out to where he had a solid career, it still was a bad pick over the guy everyone was outraged we didn’t take. And it wasn’t revisionist kind out outrage, everyone was furious the moment it happened that it wasn’t Ngata. My aunt had just died and we were clearing out her house during the draft getting ready for the estate sale of her stuff. And I was stunned when they called Whitners name. I remember thinking at least we are getting Ngata to help boost my mood that day, but nope…I was speechless when it happened. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damj Posted April 30, 2023 Share Posted April 30, 2023 Reach arounds are usually successful. Not from personal experience Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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