What does our O-Line look like now?

[Richard Noggin]

On 5/4/2023 at 10:10 PM, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

Dawkins, McGovern, Morse, Torrence, Brown, Edwards, Quessenberry are locks. That's 7. We'll probably keep 9 total. That's the standard number McBeane usually keeps.

 

Bates is a lock, unless he's traded. He's the only Guard we have that we'd be able to move and has value. I could see a scenario where Torrence beats him out for the RG spot right out of camp and either Broeker or Boettger are looking good enough that they feel comfortable with one of them being the final Guard on the depth chart. Probably give the edge to Boettger as he can play Backup Center. But yeah, Bates or either Broeker or Boettger to go along with McGovern, Torrence, and Edwards will make up our Guards, bringing the total to 8.

 

The real question is who will be our 4th OT? Dawkins, Brown, and Quessenberry will be here. But Tommy Doyle completely tore his ACL 9/27 of last year and played an entire game on it. Almost certain he'll be put on the PUP. So do they feel good about Gouraige (or one of the futures signings) in the short term or are we going to bring in another OT? I think we may. And if we do, they'll surely be the 4th OT and the final member of the OL on the 53.

 

As for the starting Line, it's clearly Dawkins - McGovern - Morse - Bates/Torrence/Edwards (whoever wins the job) - Brown

 

 

Edwards isn't being traded. You don't sign a veteran to a 1 year deal in Free Agency and then say "thanks for choosing us, but now we're trading you somewhere else that you didn't choose and you don't have a say in it". Would set a bad precedent for anyone wanting to sign here in the future.

 

As I said above, the only moveable OG piece is Bates. But it would take Torrence or Edwards winning the job and being comfortable having Boettger or Broeker as the 4th guy (and one of the Guards being able to be backup Center, as Bates is now). I suppose if someone wanted to trade for Boettger, he could be moved. But I don't see anyone giving up anything for him.

 

Three reasons I DON'T see the Bills moving Gates: 1) the 4-year contract offer the Bills matched just last season shows that he is valued by the current coaches and personnel dept and 2) that value includes a dead cap number in 2023 that exceeds his cap hit enough to most likely outweigh whatever return he might fetch in a trade and 3) Bates can line up at ALL FIVE spots along the line. The Bills LOVE that kind of position flex. Bates is IDEAL o-line depth. 

 

(He might even be the heir apparent to Morse in their eyes. I hope instead they see him as high-end depth backing up the entire line.)

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I’ll say it again, Bates is one of best 5 linemen.  McGovern can backup at all 3 IOL spots as well. Bills have an out of McGovern’s contract after 1 year. Bates is the superior player, especially at LG.
 

Bates will win any competition at OG. 

[BuffBillsForLife]

Unless Torrence completely bombs in camp or gets redshirted, I can't see the week 1 oline being anything but Dawkins-McGovern-Morse-Torrence-Brown.  Bates and Quessenberry are your main backups, then Boettger and Doyle.

[BillsFanForever19]

On 5/7/2023 at 1:15 AM, Richard Noggin said:

 

Three reasons I DON'T see the Bills moving Gates: 1) the 4-year contract offer the Bills matched just last season shows that he is valued by the current coaches and personnel dept and 2) that value includes a dead cap number in 2023 that exceeds his cap hit enough to most likely outweigh whatever return he might fetch in a trade and 3) Bates can line up at ALL FIVE spots along the line. The Bills LOVE that kind of position flex. Bates is IDEAL o-line depth. 

 

(He might even be the heir apparent to Morse in their eyes. I hope instead they see him as high-end depth backing up the entire line.)

 

I agree he has too much value to move, in my opinion. 

 

But could they? If someone like Chicago (who signed him to the deal) wants to take him on, save us the cap space, and give us a Draft pick AND we're comfortable with Boettger playing backup Center and 4th OG behind McGovern, Torrence, and Edwards - I could see it. But I think I'd rather keep him.

 

And I heard an interesting theory on Cover1. Bates plays Guard and Center, but he started his career in College and the NFL as a Tackle. A big part of Bates' value is his versatility to play any spot on the Line.

 

That said, one of them theorized maybe they look at Bates as the Spencer Brown insurance at RT that fans think we don't have. If Brown begins to struggle again, maybe it will be Torrence and Bates on the Right side. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[No_Matter_What]

On 5/3/2023 at 8:43 AM, Sierra Foothills said:

I'm getting a bad feeling about this... I wonder if it's another of those T.J. Graham, T.Y. Hilton deals...

 

 

Maybe. But even if it's a miss, I'll never blame Beane for this one.

 

He knew he needs to do something with the OL and he did. If he chose the wrong guy or overpaid him so be it. It's not like there were ton of options.

 

Hell, even if we find out that Edwards, Boettger or Broeker are better and any of them starts, I am still fine with McGovern being one of the best (and best paid) backups in the league. If there is a cheap starter we can pay expensive backup

[finn]

5 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

That said, one of them theorized maybe they look at Bates as the Spencer Brown insurance at RT that fans think we don't have. If Brown begins to struggle again, maybe it will be Torrence and Bates on the Right side. 

Beane said he planned to bring in a "veteran" to challenge Brown (in the context of giving Brown a vote of confidence). 

 

Easy to see Brown struggling again. He struggled as a rookie, did well for a stretch, got Covid, and struggled some more. Last year, he struggled most of the year (yeah, yeah, back surgery). Struggling is what he does. 

 

RT is easily the biggest question mark on the roster right now. Thinking of Bates over there is the only way I sleep at night. 

[BearNorth]

Bates also got a pretty hefty contract when he used to RFA tag to his advantage. He is also our highest rated guard, including McGovern.  With the shortage of quality guards, and Morse's advancing age, he's still a bargain.

 

 

Edited May 7, 2023 by BearNorth

[The Wiz]

Seems like Browns back is 100% healed.

 

 

 

[JerseyBills]

On 4/29/2023 at 3:17 PM, DrDawkinstein said:

Dawkins - McGovern - Morse - Torrence - Brown

Quess    - Boettger    - Bates  - Edwards -  Doyle

(Doyle?) - (Broeker?)                                    (Gouraige?)

 

edit:

Broeker either PS, or in Boettger's spot if Beane pull's off a trade.

I dont know enough about UDFA OT Richard Gouraige yet. He might be able to replace Doyle at backup RT, and Doyle moves to backup LT. He might make the PS. He might just be camp fodder.

 

That right side could be REAL NASTY if those dudes get their stuff together and develop.

 

Or does Bates or Edwards have a chance of starting over Torrence, and McGovern plays RG?

 

 

Torrence and Brown would be an intimidating sight if they develop but just physically,  they are enormous.  Either way we had a nice upgrade with little money and draft capital.  I truly believe Brown will make a jump,which will make us a top 10 ol. McGovern will be considered a steal of a contract too I believe 

Edited May 7, 2023 by JerseyBills

[CaptnCoke11]

14 hours ago, BuffBillsForLife said:

Unless Torrence completely bombs in camp or gets redshirted, I can't see the week 1 oline being anything but Dawkins-McGovern-Morse-Torrence-Brown.  Bates and Quessenberry are your main backups, then Boettger and Doyle.

Edwards will be on the roster.  He’s much better than Boettger

[BuffaloBillyG]

I think week 1 the lineup is:

 

LT: Dawkins

LG: McGovern

😄Morse

RG: Bates

RT: Brown

 

Doyle should get his TE eligible "6th lineman" spot back as he played well there before injury. 

 

At some point there will be injury to the IOL, Bates will shuffle to that spot (if it's not him of course) and Torrance takes over RG. Once he gets out there Torrence won't see the bench again. span widget

Edited May 7, 2023 by BuffaloBillyG

[MrEpsYtown]

2 hours ago, CaptnCoke11 said:

Edwards will be on the roster.  He’s much better than Boettger

So long as he is healthy, it’s not even close…plus he is 3 years younger

[Buffalo_Stampede]

People do understand McGovern is not very good right? He’s been a reserve IOL and played average at RG and C, below average at LG. But he’s a quality depth IOL at all 3 positions.

 

Ryan Bates is a reserve IOL that played average at RG and C and above average at LG. 
 

They are very similar players that offer similar quality of play, but Bates has shown to be better on the left in a short period of time.

 

The Bills did this already, keeping Bates on the bench when he was one of their best 5. It should definitely be a competition. It’s pretty annoying to see McGovern penciled in everywhere when he’s not a good player. Definitely not a better player than Bates in their 1 full year of starting.

[Mister Defense]

On 4/29/2023 at 3:21 PM, The Jokeman said:

I don't like the idea of Torrence next to Brown. 

 

Funny, as when I saw the starting lineup in the OP, I was visualizing how well this can work out because their differences should be complimentary. They are almost opposites in their play, Torrence the immovable force at guard and the very athletic, fast moving Brown to his right. But both are monstrous men, 6' 5, 347 and 6'9 311.

 

It seems that a good OL coach could make that a powerful combination.

 

Morse should have an even better year than last year, now with two stronger guards at his sides. And ditto for Dawkins, with McGovern to his right.

 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Mister Defense

[PrimeTime101]

Simple Answer: They look a heck of a lot better than last year!~

[SCBills]

I honestly feel like I’m going crazy reading takes from people advocating us trading Bates or talking about the out we have in McGovern’s contract. 
 

Linemen, especially interior linemen, get banged up quite frequently.   
 

We just watched Allen get beat up last year. 
 

Now we’re talking about trading Bates?… please stop. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

6 hours ago, SCBills said:

I honestly feel like I’m going crazy reading takes from people advocating us trading Bates or talking about the out we have in McGovern’s contract. 
 

Linemen, especially interior linemen, get banged up quite frequently.   
 

We just watched Allen get beat up last year. 
 

Now we’re talking about trading Bates?… please stop. 

Not as annoying as people thinking Bates was bad last year or not one of our top 5. The 2nd half of last season he was our best lineman.

 

Sometimes I don’t think fans watch their own team.

 

We definitely needed OG help and competition but we also needed OT competition. I wish we could go back and sign an OT instead of McGovern. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[BillsFanForever19]

21 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

People do understand McGovern is not very good right? He’s been a reserve IOL and played average at RG and C, below average at LG. But he’s a quality depth IOL at all 3 positions.

 

He started every game he played last season for the Cowboys. 

 

He signed a 3 year, 23 million dollar deal with us. If he was as bad as you claim he is, we wouldn't have had to pay that much. We had to pay that much because there was competition for his services. Again, if he was as bad as you say he was - there wouldn't be competition for his services. 

 

He played well last season and has a lot of impressive traits and skills. This is a good piece breaking him down: https://theathletic.com/4340812/2023/03/24/bills-connor-mcgovern-deonte-harty/

 

Long story short, as usual, you're being hyperbolic in your review. 

 

On 5/7/2023 at 8:40 AM, finn said:

RT is easily the biggest question mark on the roster right now. Thinking of Bates over there is the only way I sleep at night. 

 

I think the Cover1 guys were on to something. The drafting of O'Cyrus Torrence may have been less about replacing Ryan Bates and more about being competition for Spencer Brown. And at the very least, insurance in the event that he doesn't take the next step or Mitch Morse can't stay healthy.

 

19 hours ago, SCBills said:

I honestly feel like I’m going crazy reading takes from people advocating us trading Bates or talking about the out we have in McGovern’s contract. 
 

Linemen, especially interior linemen, get banged up quite frequently.   
 

We just watched Allen get beat up last year. 
 

Now we’re talking about trading Bates?… please stop. 

 

I wasn't advocating for the Bills to trade Ryan Bates. I actually would prefer that they don't.

 

But the fact is he is being paid a lot of money at a position where we have 3 starting players already in McGovern, Torrence, and Edwards and will only keep 4. If a team is willing to take his contract off our hands and give us a Draft Pick - he's the only real moveable piece.

 

But again, I'd prefer to simply keep him as he could fill in anywhere on the line.

Edited May 8, 2023 by BillsFanForever19

[Buffalo_Stampede]

6 minutes ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

He started every game he played last season for the Cowboys. 

 

He signed a 3 year, 23 million dollar deal with us. If he was as bad as you claim he is, we wouldn't have had to pay that much. We had to pay that much because there was competition for his services. Again, if he was as bad as you say he was - there wouldn't be competition for his services. 

 

He played well last season and has a lot of impressive traits and skills. This is a good piece breaking him down: https://theathletic.com/4340812/2023/03/24/bills-connor-mcgovern-deonte-harty/

 

Long story short, as usual, you're being hyperbolic in your review. 

 

 

I think the Cover1 guys were on to something. The drafting of O'Cyrus Torrence may have been less about replacing Ryan Bates and more about being competition for Spencer Brown. And at the very least, insurance in the event that he doesn't take the next step or Mitch Morse can't stay healthy.

 

 

I wasn't advocating for the Bills to trade Ryan Bates. I actually would prefer that they don't.

 

But the fact is he is being paid a lot of money at a position where we have 3 starting players already in McGovern, Torrence, and Edwards and will only keep 4. If a team is willing to take his contract off our hands and give us a Draft Pick - he's the only real moveable piece.

 

But again, I'd prefer to simply keep him as he could fill in anywhere on the line.

 He’s a reserve level OG that we signed as a free agent to start for us. That’s what happens in free agency, you overpay for starters.
 

He’s not a better OG than Ryan Bates. Whatever you think of Bates, start your ranking there and work down to reach McGovern. I think overall they offer similar services. Why wouldn’t there be a competition for LG if Torrence wins RG?

 

As someone said earlier we probably see a starting 5 of Dawkins-McGovern-Morse-Bates-Brown to start camp and preseason. Injuries probably will happen. 
 

One interesting thing about Bates is he can also kick outside so I wonder if that becomes a discussion if Torrence is outstanding and Brown struggles, 2 things I’m predicting will happen.

 

 

 

 

 

[freddyjj]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:53 AM, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

I agree he has too much value to move, in my opinion. 

 

But could they? If someone like Minnesota (who signed him to the deal) wants to take him on, save us the cap space, and give us a Draft pick AND we're comfortable with Boettger playing backup Center and 4th OG behind McGovern, Torrence, and Edwards - I could see it. But I think I'd rather keep him.

 

And I heard an interesting theory on Cover1. Bates plays Guard and Center, but he started his career in College and the NFL as a Tackle. A big part of Bates' value is his versatility to play any spot on the Line.

 

That said, one of them theorized maybe they look at Bates as the Spencer Brown insurance at RT that fans think we don't have. If Brown begins to struggle again, maybe it will be Torrence and Bates on the Right side. 

Some clarification please on  2 points.  Wasn't it the Bears who tried to sign Bates as an RFA?

 

I know Bates can, and has, played C for the Bills in a regular season game.  Has Boettger as well?