Royale with Cheese Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 1 minute ago, Einstein said: No one is saying its the definitive source. It's just another tool. But you want to pretend like the tool is total garbage - except its not. If we limited opinions on a forum to people who knew more than football coaches then there would be 0 threads and 0 posts. Including from you. We are all giving our opinion based on what we see. And sometimes the pro's (who know more) get it wrong. See 2000 to 2017. If that's the case, why are you criticizing me for criticizing PFF? Or are you that guy that's allowed to criticize and others aren't? Your ability to keep up with a conversation is just poor. I said the data and analytics are good information, player grades are not. But you're now telling me again I'm saying it's all total garbage. https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Pro-Football-Focus I bet these guys who make minimal pay are experts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Beck Water said: the PFF graders are NOT primarily comprised of "former NFL players, coaches and scouts". They are comprised of low-level grunts, many of whom have never watched football and are being introduced to it for the first time (being a UK based company). They get some training on what to score and are then turned lose to do it. Their scoring is reviewed by people who know more, but it's far too much weekly data for the higher level experts to review in depth Do you know someone who worked at PFF? Because I do. it is you who are confused. There are LOTS of former players or coaches work at PFF. Including Andrew Berry (former NFL player), Bruce Gradkowski (former NFL player), Mike Johnson (former NFL linemen), Steve Palazzolo (former UNH coach), Jeff Dooley (former RI coach), Mike Renner (former college linemen), Eric Eager (former coach at MU), George Chahrouri (former coach at Harvard), Ben Linsey (former college linemen), Anthony Treash (former AZ db), Andrew Erickson (former college WR), etc. There are also multiple levels of analysis. After it passing primary analysts it then goes to mid-tier level to be graded again. And then to a final tier to be graded again and make sure the first 2 levels got it right. The former players and coaches are usually on level 2 and 3. You're probably thinking of data collectors (they are low level grunts). 3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: If that's the case, why are you criticizing me for criticizing PFF? Or are you that guy that's allowed to criticize and others aren't? I'm not criticizing you. I'm just having a discussion. If you've taken it personally, don't. You're the one who has told me that the Bills made a decision and they know more, therefore I shouldn't question it. 3 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: Your ability to keep up with a conversation is just poor. When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Feel free to have the last word. I won't respond. . Edited March 14, 2023 by Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 1 minute ago, Einstein said: Do you know someone who worked at PFF? Because I do. it is you who are confused. There are LOTS of former players or coaches work at PFF. Including Andrew Berry (former NFL player), Bruce Gradkowski (former NFL player), Mike Johnson (former NFL linemen), Steve Palazzolo (former UNH coach), Jeff Dooley (former RI coach), Mike Renner (former college linemen), Eric Eager (former coach at MU), George Chahrouri (former coach at Harvard), Ben Linsey (former college linemen), Anthony Treash (former AZ db), Andrew Erickson (former college WR), etc. There are also multiple levels of analysis. After it passing primary analysts it then goes to mid-tier level to be graded again. And then to a final tier to be graded again and make sure the first 2 levels got it right. You're probably thinking of data collectors (they are low level grunts). Okay lol. He's your double standard again. When I bring up Eric Wood, TJ Lang and what the Kelce's say about PFF....it's just their opinion and it doesn't make them right. Correct? How does this not apply to the PFF Analysts then? Why is it "it's just their opinion and it doesn't make them right?". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Einstein said: Do you know someone who worked at PFF? Because I do. it is you who are confused. There are LOTS of former players or coaches work at PFF. Including Andrew Berry (former NFL player), Bruce Gradkowski (former NFL player), Mike Johnson (former NFL linemen), Steve Palazzolo (former UNH coach), Jeff Dooley (former RI coach), Mike Renner (former college linemen), Eric Eager (former coach at MU), George Chahrouri (former coach at Harvard), Ben Linsey (former college linemen), Anthony Treash (former AZ db), Andrew Erickson (former college WR), etc. There are also multiple levels of analysis. After it passing primary analysts it then goes to mid-tier level to be graded again. And then to a final tier to be graded again and make sure the first 2 levels got it right. The former players and coaches are usually on level 2 and 3. You're probably thinking of data collectors (they are low level grunts). If you're not confused and you know how it works, then why are you confusing the data teams pay for, and the PFF grading system? If you read carefully what I wrote, nothing I said refutes the idea that former players and coaches do work at PFF - just the contention that they're intimately involved in the play by play, game by game analysis that produces the PFF player grades. Listing names does not argue that point. Nor does saying the initial analysis is QC'd. How carefully is each play QC'd and by whom? I'm outta here. Your choice of screen name is too ironic for me. Edited March 14, 2023 by Beck Water 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyBills Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 23 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: This has been explained to him multiple times but he doesn't get it. His stance is "PFF knows more than you so can't criticize". I guess I can't criticize the plumber who didn't connect my drain pipe upstairs and lead to a leak because he knows more about plumbing than I do. I mean pff had KCs new T at close to 40 in pass pro and close to 60 in run and that was on the right side. My 2 brothers are cowboy fans and loved Conor. He passed the eye test according to them and improves LG as well because Bates is better there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 2 minutes ago, Beck Water said: If you're not confused and you know how it works, then why are you confusing the data teams pay for, and the PFF grading system? I'm outta here. Your choice of screen name is too ironic for me. The team pays for it all. The data the team gets is actually much more advanced than the data the public gets. but it all result in the same type of scoring and analysis. except for things like formations and bunch sets. PS, PFF is headquarters in Ohio. Not the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 7 minutes ago, Einstein said: When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the loser. Feel free to have the last word. I won't respond. This debate was won by you? It's slander when I say you can't keep up with the conversation after it was told to you multiple times the difference between data/analytics and player grades? I defamed your character with that statement?? You're not that sensitive are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mat68 Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 Buffalo is a pass first team. No matter how much they want a different mentality or would like a better commitment to it. Push come to shove big time game its on Allen to win it. Get him guys who are better pass blockers than run blockers. Get him guys who can get open and catch the ball. Thats it. Invest more money and resources into the offense and use some good scheme and patch work on the defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 What is interesting about that NFL player who said that agents pay PFF to raise grades is, if that if that actually happening, then it shows the power of PFF within NFL front offices. Because these agents/players wouldnt care what the average $12 per month fan thinks about their grade. They care about what the NFL team paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for those grades and data think about the player. The grade and the data to hand in hand. The grade is derived from the data. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, JerseyBills said: I mean pff had KCs new T at close to 40 in pass pro and close to 60 in run and that was on the right side. My 2 brothers are cowboy fans and loved Conor. He passed the eye test according to them and improves LG as well because Bates is better there @Einstein What are your thoughts on this? Andy Reid gave Taylor $80 million to play Left Tackle and he was PFF lowest rated tackle? Did Reid forget to renew his PFF subscription? He actually graded lower than Rodger Saffold. https://www.kansascity.com/sports/nfl/kansas-city-chiefs/article273093095.html#:~:text=Taylor's 39.7 PFF grade in,deal with the Washington Commanders. Taylor's 39.7 PFF grade in that aspect was lowest among all tackles who played 80% of their team's snaps in 2022. The Chiefs acquired Taylor on a day they lost their other starting tackle, as Andrew Wylie agreed to a three-year deal with the Washington Commanders. Edited March 14, 2023 by Royale with Cheese 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 3 minutes ago, Einstein said: What is interesting about that NFL player who said that agents pay PFF to raise grades is, if that if that actually happening, then it shows the power of PFF within NFL front offices. Because these agents/players wouldnt care what the average $12 per month fan thinks about their grade. They care about what the NFL team paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for those grades and data think about the player. The grade and the data to hand in hand. The grade is derived from the data. The grade and data can't go hand in hand if money change the grade and data! Then it's not data and analytic driven, it's money driven! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 24 minutes ago, JerseyBills said: I mean pff had KCs new T at close to 40 in pass pro and close to 60 in run and that was on the right side. My 2 brothers are cowboy fans and loved Conor. He passed the eye test according to them and improves LG as well because Bates is better there What's even more funny is Einstein created this thread last year. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 28 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: What's even more funny is Einstein created this thread last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 11 minutes ago, NewEra said: I know....I know lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
In Summary Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 56 minutes ago, Mat68 said: Buffalo is a pass first team. No matter how much they want a different mentality or would like a better commitment to it. Push comes to shove big time game it's on Allen to win it. Get him guys who are better pass blockers than run blockers. Get him guys who can get open and catch the ball. Thats it. Invest more money and resources into the offense and use some good scheme and patch work on the defense. Cover 1 seemed to like his pass blocking. You're spot on IMO in that the Bills simply don't insist on premier run blocking due to who they are. Average pass blocking at an affordable price - that's their way. That doesn't mean that I don't want a more dominating and complete guard. Now I'm wondering if they take an interior O lineman with an early pick or if they're done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 (edited) 30 minutes ago, NewEra said: I mentioned that article earlier in this very thread. It further proves my point about NFL teams using PFF grades. Otherwise, if teams didn’t use them, players and agents wouldn’t spend tens of thousands of dollars to change them. Edited March 14, 2023 by Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewEra Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 11 minutes ago, Einstein said: I mentioned that article earlier in this very thread. It further proves my point about NFL teams using PFF grades. Otherwise, if teams didn’t use them, players and agents wouldn’t spend tens of thousands of dollars to change them. It’s ok man. You don’t care what other think of you. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 21 minutes ago, Einstein said: I mentioned that article earlier in this very thread. It further proves my point about NFL teams using PFF grades. Otherwise, if teams didn’t use them, players and agents wouldn’t spend tens of thousands of dollars to change them. Wouldn't Andy Reid singing PFF's worst rated tackle to the 4th highest contract for his position be furthering the point they don't give a ***** was PFF grades are? The evaluation of the Reid and PFF are literally, completely opposite. And two, what you have proven is that PFF grading is worthless if it can be manipulated by money. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einstein Posted March 14, 2023 Share Posted March 14, 2023 15 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: Wouldn't Andy Reid singing PFF's worst rated tackle to the 4th highest contract for his position be furthering the point they don't give a ***** was PFF grades are? The evaluation of the Reid and PFF are literally, completely opposite. And two, what you have proven is that PFF grading is worthless if it can be manipulated by money. I'm not sure where Andy Reid entered this conversation but Andy has a history of signing bad offensive linemen, so that doesn't surprise me. His terrible o-line is what got Mahomes crushed in the SB a couple years ago and cost him a ring. He also traded a 1st, 3rd and 4th round pick for Orlando Brown who was a total disappointment and they just let him walk after only two seasons. Based on his history, I would guess that him drafting Creed was luck more than skill. He probably should be using PFF more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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