Rip the BandAid off

[SCBills]

4 minutes ago, Gunsgoodtime said:

A 6th or 7th is more likely than your scenario with his contract and play to date

Misleading title.  Should have said "My Madden 2023 trades"

 

I am not high on Ed Oliver, but I think you're way off here. 

[Ya Digg?]

14 minutes ago, SCBills said:

 

Bills "decision makers" should legitimately explain what the plan is for Oliver if he's still on this roster post-draft.  

 

I fear you are correct, but from the outside, it makes no sense at all.  

 

10.5M to a player not under contract the following year, who doesn't take over games himself and puts us in an Edmunds scenario for '24 at a position where we have nobody locked up on a multi-year deal is absurd management. 

 

 

Who do they need to explain things to? The fans? 

[Big Turk]

They aren't blowing up the team.  Enough of this...also people are really underestimating the amount the cap will be climbing the next 3-4 offseasons, making any restructures they do pretty much of no concern.

 

Within 4 years the cap will be over $300 million due to the various TV contracts about to kick in.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Big Turk

[SCBills]

2 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

Who do they need to explain things to? The fans? 

 

Obviously they don't need to go into detail, but I would like to know there's some semblance of a plan for Oliver, if we don't move him... we're losing Edmunds, if he bounces, for nothing... and will be facing the same scenario for a FAR less impactful guy in a DT room that has nobody under contact for '24.   Yes, they should explain what the (vague) plan is... 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Trade whoever, but only for 5th round picks. 
 

Beane’s sweet spot.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

I like Morse a lot, but if the staff has any future plans of moving Bates to Center, I'd start that transition immediately and make sure we sign, and draft, a stud LG & RG to start the revamp of our IOL.  If they don't, then maybe we should keep him and address C next year in the draft. 

 

Ed Oliver needs to be traded.  I honestly think it's FO malpractice to keep him, with his cap hit, on this team.  We could really use the 10.5M elsewhere, we could really use an extra draft pick or two and we have zero DT's under contract for '24.  Extend Daquan Jones and either sign or draft a legit DT to start next to him on a multi-year/rookie contract.

 

I'd keep Hyde.  I firmly believe we should let Poyer and Edmunds walk, so having Hyde back there as a vet presence is worthwhile.   

 

I'd also keep AJE.  He's a solid rotational DE.  Not what we hoped he would be, but he's good enough to be a rotational piece on this Defense.  I'd probably be ok with him getting a second contract here as DE4 to be honest. 

 

Spencer Brown has so much potential.  I also believe we need to see it through with him.  That also means making sure LT-LG-C-RG are above average players so he can be the up and down piece until he, hopefully, figures it out. 

 

Agree on McKenzie and Neal.  There's no room anymore to pay legitimate money to fringe/ST guys. 

 

 

 

 

McKenzie has 1 more year--he's only getting 2.5 million next season. He had 478 yards from scrimmage on 51 touches and 5 TDs.  

 

Hines had 11 touches for 50 yards, 1 receiving TD and 2 returns for TD (in same game) and he is owed 10+ million over the next 2 years!  He's a "fringe/ST guy"....

[Simon Says]

1 hour ago, T master said:

 

I'm in on trading Oliver he hasn't lived up to his draft status & is inconsistent with out someone else on the D line to help him out Mckenzie i would cut there are a ton of guys out there just like him fast & inconsistent that you can get in the draft for less money & could have a bigger upside .

 

Neal seeing as he has versatility being that of ST's, corner & safety his contract is much easier to see as a more useful part of cap money & could be a good player to have around seeing as the amount of safety's on the team as of now is low & he knows the D unless it changes now .

 

Gilliam i can see if utilized in a much better way with in the scheme he has shown that he can be a outlet for Josh & has good hands pls is a good blocker when needed in the back field or for a lead blocker so he also has some versatility which makes his contract look to be better than a player that only has 1 thing to offer .

 

I hate that Morse is in the position he is given his concussions but the Bills definitely need someone that can take his place & there are a few in the draft that look like they have that potential so i hope they draft his replacement because i think he is one hit away from retirement if he's thinking of life after football .

 

 

Those of you pushing for an Oliver trade.....your,e talking about how he isn't worth the salary so why would another team want him?

[HOUSE]

I wouldn't do any of that s*** 

[MJS]

Hyde has no trade value. Epenesa has no trade value. Morse has no trade value. All of them are more valuable on the team than what you would get in a trade.

 

Ed Oliver can maybe get you a 3rd. Maybe a 2nd if there is a team who was really high on him out of the draft.

[MPT]

29 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Still confused. Isn't the whole purpose of a restructure to pay them LESS money?

 

A restructure is when you pay a player's salary for the year as a bonus and spread that cap hit amount over the remaining years on the contract. It's all the same amount of money but the player gets the money faster and the team creates cap space for the current year.

[Iraq Vet]

My entire point was to not blow up the entire roster and rebuild, but to be slightly more aggressive with the cuts and trades then we normally need to.  With JA 17 we have Super Bowl or MVP type type QB for a while.  We need some room next year for a larger push.  I am ok with a 10-7 season this upcoming year, and a full reload in 2024 with cap space. 

 

Remember we only lost 3 games.  We will still be a playoff team if we are a little more aggressive with trades and cuts this year... then take our shot in 2024 with $$$ free Agents and packaging draft picks to move up! 

[MPT]

31 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

Sometimes contracts are restructured because the player is no longer worth it, and when that happens they often refuse for one or more reasons.  Keep in mind, they often backload contracts with ridiculous annual numbers that they never have any intention of paying, but it looks good to the player who seems to want to be "the highest paid" or whatever their thing is.  I don't always understand it, but as we've seen, a 5, 6, or 8-year contract may actually practially only be a 3, 4, or 5 year contract.  

 

Didn't we offer Beasley a restructure and he refused in '21?  

 

Generally speaking, for younger up-and-coming players however, you seem to be correct.  

 

 

Beasley requested a trade and we released him. I don't think there was much of a cap hit so they wouldn't have restructured his contract anyway.

 

I think you're talking about renegotiating contracts though. 

 

The only reason I can think a player would refuse a restructure is if they knew the team wanted to pay out their salary to make them more appealing as a trade asset and they didn't want to be traded. But that's a very specific set of circumstances and I'm not sure if that's ever actually happened.

[Alphadawg7]

21 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

To add some context, all of which except for one were against non-playoff teams with mediocre to average QBs.  In the other game, Minnesota, it was against the third most sacked QB in the game.  

 

In the first game when the entire team was playing as if it were the Super Bowl, he had 4 QB Hits, 1 TFL, and 1.5 sacks.  After that he averaged one sack every fifth game or so, about 1 TFL every other game, and fewer than 1 QB Hit every two games, and all of them against mediocre or bad QBs other than for Cousins in that one game.  

 

In the playoffs he did nada, in two games, despite playing nearly 50% of the snaps.  

 

We need players to step up against the best teams, not the weakest ones.  

 

To your point though about snaps taken, aka "part time role," if he really is better than that, then let's point the finger at coaching.  Players are defended by not being coached properly and low snap counts.  Coaches are defended because the players aren't stepping up.  Beane is defended by the players not being used propertly.  So at the end of the day it's no one's fault for any of the poor decisions and dysfunction, so nothing changes.  

 

 

 

To be fair, the whole defense crapped the best against the Bengals, everyone.  Singling him out is irrelevant for that game.  Point is, AJE put up 6.5 sacks this year despite a part time role in a defense that wasn't overall great at sacking the QB.  I honestly wonder what he might do in a different defense.  And here is why below...

 

Jerry Hughes last 3 seasons in Buffalo, he had 4.5 sacks, 4.5 sacks, and then 2 sacks his last year.  A total of 11.  His first season in Houston when he was considered on the last year or two of his career he had 9 sacks.  

 

Since arriving in Buffalo, Hughes has had 5 seasons without Frazier (4 here, 1 in Houston) and 5 seasons with Frazier.

• Without Frazier:  Hughes has averaged 8 sacks a season, including getting 9 this year on one of the worst teams in football at the tail end of his career.
  • In the 5 seasons without Frazier he has put up 9 or more sacks 3 times.  
• With Frazier:  Hughes has averaged just 4.4 sacks a season, and only 1 season with more than 4.5 when he got 7 in 2018.  

Without Frazier he only had one season with less than 5 sacks...with Frazier every season but one 7 sack season was under 5 sacks.  

 

So I have legit quesitons on how much of it is the player or the system/scheme we run here.  I watched a 16th ranked Bengals defense who had the same number of sacks as the Bills #1 ranked defense last year go on to terrorize Mahomes and hold the Chiefs to 3 second half points on their way to the SB.  A week after the Chiefs offense embarrassed the Bills D, couldn't get any pressure, and gave up 3 scores inside the final 2 min of the game and opening drive of OT.  

 

Personally, I think AJE has shown ability and I question if this is the defense that can help him reach his peak, whatever that may be.  I am hoping with Frazier gone, that maybe now we might see some changes that will help our young guys take more steps forward.  Not saying AJE will suddenly break out, but I do suspect the defense we have run thus far has been part of the problem.  

 

 

[Chaos]

49 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Still confused. Isn't the whole purpose of a restructure to pay them LESS money?

Typically restructures move non-guaranteed money to guaranteed money, which is spread over the contract in a way that reduces the CAP hit.  Cap and Cash are different beasts. 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

24 minutes ago, Iraq Vet said:

My entire point was to not blow up the entire roster and rebuild, but to be slightly more aggressive with the cuts and trades then we normally need to.  With JA 17 we have Super Bowl or MVP type type QB for a while.  We need some room next year for a larger push.  I am ok with a 10-7 season this upcoming year, and a full reload in 2024 with cap space. 

 

Remember we only lost 3 games.  We will still be a playoff team if we are a little more aggressive with trades and cuts this year... then take our shot in 2024 with $$$ free Agents and packaging draft picks to move up! 

Disagree with being OK with 10-7 next year. Every season with JA17 should be intended for a 1 seed and Super Bowl.

 

Agree with the spirit of your posts. I think we need to be similar to the Patriots* who for so many years both: (1) regularly flipped their own veterans for picks right before their decline in play and also (2) had a knack for acquiring talented veterans whose value was at a low due to other reasons but who could still play at a high level. Or, more recently, see the Chiefs trading away of Hill. 

[Magox]

3 hours ago, Iraq Vet said:

 

 

Trades

M Hyde is very tradeable. and getting up there in age.  Hamlin will be back.

ED Oliver will get us a huge trade, he is a nice player, but we need the room. 

AJ Epenesa he is Eric Flowers.  All potential that is never realized.  We will get a 4th rounder.

Mitch Morris... injury prone.  I don't want to cut him or Restructure. We will get 5th. (too much dead money)

 

Easy restructures or new contracts

Reggie Gilliam.... add a year and restructure ( or a flat out cut)

Dion Dawkins a mild restructure

Tre White Mild restructure

Spencer Brown..  (I believe he will be great one day, lock him in now)

Nyhiem Hines.. full restructure and add a year. 

 

 

Cuts

Isaiah Mckenzie (or a long term low pay restructure  instead of cutting)

Siran Neal... nice player.. but way over paid... there are nice Safeties in the draft. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hyde is still producing but won't get good trade value -    KEEP

Ed Oliver -  TRADE  ( 2nd - 3rd round value)

AJ Epenesa - Shows some potential not worth trade value -  KEEP

Mitch Morse -  KEEP

NyHiem Hines - Ask for pay cut to stay

Tre White - Restructure

Dion Dawkins - Restructure

J.A - Restructure

McKenzie - CUT

Edmunds - LET WALK

 

Draft and FA priorities for significant playing time or starter

 

WR

RT

Guard

MLB

Safety (If Benford isn't the answer)

 

Draft and FA for Depth

 

CB

Safety

 

[SCBills]

8 minutes ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Disagree with being OK with 10-7 next year. Every season with JA17 should be intended for a 1 seed and Super Bowl.

 

Agree with the spirit of your posts. I think we need to be similar to the Patriots* who for so many years both: (1) regularly flipped their own veterans for picks right before their decline in play and also (2) had a knack for acquiring talented veterans whose value was at a low due to other reasons but who could still play at a high level. Or, more recently, see the Chiefs trading away of Hill. 

 

Not only did the Chiefs trade Hill last year, they also let Ward and Mathieu walk..  Their starting Safety and CB1. 

[John from Riverside]

3 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

To the OP: Just curious...how do you "restructure" a current player's exisiting contract if they don't want to, and just say (to the Bills' front office), "Nah, I'm good, dog."? Or are you saying if they aren't willing to restructure, just Cut them?

The restructures did just give them guaranteed money in their pocket or kind of a no-brainer for the player

[Ya Digg?]

2 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

Obviously they don't need to go into detail, but I would like to know there's some semblance of a plan for Oliver, if we don't move him... we're losing Edmunds, if he bounces, for nothing... and will be facing the same scenario for a FAR less impactful guy in a DT room that has nobody under contact for '24.   Yes, they should explain what the (vague) plan is... 

So outside of the fact that they don't owe fans an explanation about these moves, by giving an explanation of what they want to do with him they lose negotiating leverage, both with Oliver if they want to re-sign him and with teams if they want to find a trade partner.  The people who need to know, know what's going on with him.  Fans don't need to know and they shouldn't let us know

[streetkings01]

4 hours ago, Iraq Vet said:

Yes restructure JA17 contract.  But it is time to make a few cuts or trades.  Restructuring always hurts in the long run.  I am not suggesting huge cuts and a full rebuild. 

 

We did not make the Super Bowl.  But JA17 will be here a while, so I am willing to make few cuts.  Just so we have an opportunity to a quick creation of long term cap space.  

 

Trades

M Hyde is very tradeable. and getting up there in age.  Hamlin will be back.

ED Oliver will get us a huge trade, he is a nice player, but we need the room. 

AJ Epenesa he is Eric Flowers.  All potential that is never realized.  We will get a 4th rounder.

Mitch Morris... injury prone.  I don't want to cut him or Restructure. We will get 5th. (too much dead money)

 

Easy restructures or new contracts

Reggie Gilliam.... add a year and restructure ( or a flat out cut)

Dion Dawkins a mild restructure

Tre White Mild restructure

Spencer Brown..  (I believe he will be great one day, lock him in now)

Nyhiem Hines.. full restructure and add a year. 

 

 

Cuts

Isaiah Mckenzie (or a long term low pay restructure  instead of cutting)

Siran Neal... nice player.. but way over paid... there are nice Safeties in the draft. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

People don’t wanna say it because of what happened on the field, but Hamlin was bad last year. Before he got hurt in that Bengals game he was really getting worked……he’s a backup at best not a replacement for Hyde.