Brand J Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, GunnerBill said: EXACTLY. In key moments in the playoffs it is about talent over scheme. Ex-*****-actly. Coaches coach. Players have to play. Coaches also have to put players in the best position to make said plays. Go ahead and disagree with or eyeroll this rebuttal as well. 🙄 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, JayBaller10 said: Coaches also have to put players in the best position to make said plays. Go ahead and disagree with or eyeroll this rebuttal as well. 🙄 They do. And Leslie was good at doing it. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SectionC3 Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 9 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I mean I disagree with almost all of this. The lack of adjustments thing in particular is maddening because it is something the Bills have been extremely good at in Frazier's period here. Consistently strong in second half defense. And it is there to people who watch the tape and understand what they are watching too. Look the Cincy game was a mess, start to finish, all units... but if you think there were no defensive adjustments in that game I honestly don't know what to say to you. The Miami game was the same, they played basically a completely different coverage scheme in the second half. It is just irritating when people repeat, ad nauseum things that are not true because they either haven't taken the time to watch the all22 or if they have watched it they just don't understand what they are watching. As for is playing a safe style a problem? No. Not for me. It is the way to play defense in the NFL in 2023. You have to make teams string drives together, that's the modern way to play. But you have to get pressure with your front 4 to make it work and the Bills too often haven't. That is less scheme and more personnel. Do I think McDermott's influence changed over the years? No. Did Leslie get Head Coaching interviews during his time here? Yes in 3 of the 6 post-seasons. Do I think Leslie could come back to a DC job in the NFL if he wants one? Yes. Did we "need" to make a change? No. I agree with the point on “needing” to make a change. Did this have to happen? No, of course not. The defense was good. My concern with Frazier lies in the idea that the “book” is out there on him. I’d like to see a “Spags” game out of him, or Lou A. game out of him when it matters most. We never quite got there. So, I completely agree - we did not need to make a change. I just wonder if it’s time for a fresh set of eyes, for fresh ideas, and maybe a little unpredictability at key moments. Time will tell, I guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 minute ago, GunnerBill said: They do. And Leslie was good at doing it. My definition of “good” is quite different from yours. You can put together the regular season stats that hoist Frazier on a pedestal, but the playoffs is where it counts. There’s more middling to bad teams we’ll face in the regular season than there are in the playoffs. When going against good offenses we’ve seen the result. Not over a year, not over 2 years, not even over 3. It was time for a change. 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, GunnerBill said: They do. And Leslie was good at doing it. Sure.. in the regular season, Frazier is fantastic. He’s not the guy to slow down Mahomes/Burrow in the Playoffs. We’ve seen enough to know that. This defense honestly needs a re-alignment, not just of coaching, but of investment. If Frazier leaving is followed by Poyer & Edmunds replaced by guys 1/3 of their cost, along with a situational pass rush specialist FA and moving Ed Oliver for picks and more size in the middle .. we may finally be onto something. And maybe they don’t annihilate bad to mid QB’s like Frazier’s D with Edmunds and Poyer, but they will have been built in a mold to better compete in the Playoffs (create more negative plays) while allowing more cap to be spent on the Offense. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CincyBillsFan Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Billz4ever said: What makes you think the Bills are going to be playing radically different style of D going forward? This is still McD's defense and I haven't heard anything suggested they will be changing defensive philosophy or scheming. IMO, you're going to get the same defense, with just a different play caller, and a few different players on the field. Maybe it's more a hope then a belief. But if the Bills do the right thing and pivot hard from being defensive focused to offensively focused then they'll need to change their D. The KC model comes to mind. Populate the D with a couple of elite play makers and the rest are JAGs (rookies, cheap FA's etc.). Understand that this new defense will not be smothering and will not be a top 5 D in the regular season. But it will force more then it's fair share of 3 & outs and TO's. Which gives the offense more possessions to score. And when one of the JAG's on this D screws up it will be a quick score or drive and the O is right back on the field. That is how KC does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 So more of the same, but with a less seasoned coach. Got it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargent Hulka Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 How do you entice a qualified replacement if Frazier is just taking a one year hiatus? This excuse sounds contrived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruffalo Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, Sargent Hulka said: How do you entice a qualified replacement if Frazier is just taking a one year hiatus? This excuse sounds contrived. Frazier is taking a 1 year hiatus from coaching. He plans to return to coaching next year, that doesn't mean he will return to be the DC of the Bills. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billz4ever Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, CincyBillsFan said: Maybe it's more a hope then a belief. But if the Bills do the right thing and pivot hard from being defensive focused to offensively focused then they'll need to change their D. The KC model comes to mind. Populate the D with a couple of elite play makers and the rest are JAGs (rookies, cheap FA's etc.). Understand that this new defense will not be smothering and will not be a top 5 D in the regular season. But it will force more then it's fair share of 3 & outs and TO's. Which gives the offense more possessions to score. And when one of the JAG's on this D screws up it will be a quick score or drive and the O is right back on the field. That is how KC does it. Yep, one thing the postseason has shown us is that you can throw regular season defensive rankings out the window. Build a defense that can get a couple of key stops to either force a punt or a FG and dump the rest of the resources into building an offensive juggernaut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, CincyBillsFan said: Maybe it's more a hope then a belief. But if the Bills do the right thing and pivot hard from being defensive focused to offensively focused then they'll need to change their D. The KC model comes to mind. Populate the D with a couple of elite play makers and the rest are JAGs (rookies, cheap FA's etc.). Understand that this new defense will not be smothering and will not be a top 5 D in the regular season. But it will force more then it's fair share of 3 & outs and TO's. Which gives the offense more possessions to score. And when one of the JAG's on this D screws up it will be a quick score or drive and the O is right back on the field. That is how KC does it. Personnel and resource allocation wise I agree. That has to be more of the model. They shouldn't change a lot schematically though. They need to hope Tre comes back to full form. They need to develop Elam and they need to be better up front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Boo Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 8 minutes ago, Billz4ever said: What makes you think the Bills are going to be playing radically different style of D going forward? This is still McD's defense and I haven't heard anything suggested they will be changing the core defensive philosophy. IMO, you're going to get the same defense, with just a different play caller, and a few different players on the field. This right here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brand J Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 1 minute ago, SCBills said: Sure.. in the regular season, Frazier is fantastic. He’s not the guy to slow down Mahomes/Burrow in the Playoffs. We’ve seen enough to know that. This defense honestly needs a re-alignment, not just of coaching, but of investment. If Frazier leaving is followed by Poyer & Edmunds replaced by guys 1/3 of their cost, along with a situational pass rush specialist FA and moving Ed Oliver for picks and more size in the middle .. we may finally be onto something. And maybe they don’t annihilate bad to mid QB’s like Frazier’s D with Edmunds and Poyer, but they will have been built in a mold to better compete in the Playoffs (create more negative plays) while allowing more cap to be spent on the Offense. To me it isn’t even about his inability to slow down Mahomes and Burrow, there aren’t many teams who can. I mean, you’d like more resistance than tissue paper, sure, but I didn’t think it defined Frazier necessarily. When I think about his tenure, I think back to the Houston game on that 3rd and 18, when the players were lined up so far back that they weren’t in position to make a stop after the ball was thrown 8 yards. I think about the second half collapse against Indy as well. He’s almost always had a plan for Lamar Jackson, so I will most definitely give him his flowers there. But his conservative approach has shown to backfire time and time again but it’s all he knows, so he can do no different when the chips are on the table. Again, it was time for a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 2 hours ago, PetermansRedemption said: Or coached his defense to not completely fold in multiple playoff games. 10 points. dorsey should also take some time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sargent Hulka Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 35 minutes ago, RunninRebel37 said: I don’t get the hate with Frazier. Bills defense under his tenure have always been…what top 10 - excluding 2018 and 2020 - with them being top 2 two different seasons. Their play in the playoffs has been sufficient too given their talent. The Bills lost to the Bengals for a variety of reasons, primarily the offensive line breaking down, receivers not getting open or making plays, and the OC not scheming anything up. Wish him the best and hope his contributions are remembered fairly and appreciated. Sean McDermott wouldn’t be who he is today without him. Seems to me Burrow was throwing underneath successful all day in that playoff game, plus Mixon was running wild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norcalbillsfan Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, thenorthremembers said: The reason its been worse in the playoffs is because they are playing the best of the best offenses, and in this day and age of football a good defense is not going to stop a good offense. The Bills need to work on making their offense better than the Chiefs, not trying to stop them with defense. I would agree with you to a point, the bills needed to be much better on offense against the Bengals, the defense and frazier dont deserve all the hate. But on the other side the bills are one of those best offenses, and Anarumo schooled the bills. Completely shut down josh and the game plan. How? Scheme. Bengals D is not more talented than the Bills but from a coaching standpoint Anarumo completely outclassed frazier. Bengals made it to the superbowl because of Anarumos adjustments at the half against the Chiefs. The Chiefs beat the Bengals this year because spagnola dialed up ways to take advantage of the back up O line of the Bengals. And bucs won a superbowl because they dialed up ways to get after mahomes. Iam not a guy that's pounding the table to get rid of frazier and I know we could be much worse on defense, but I think that frazier has shown what he is, consistant. He will always have a good defense but he will never be the guy that dials up a scheme that debilitates an opposing QB and dictates a game. It will always bend but don't break. And maybe it's time to see if the bills need a scheme to help them past the Bengals/chiefs. Edited February 28, 2023 by Norcalbillsfan 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, FireChans said: 10 points. dorsey should also take some time Thinking back, Dorsey was dealt a pretty bad hand. I'm optimistic he has a good Year 2. -He has a brand new OL coach trying to implement a new scheme with middle of the road talent, which led to a bottom third OL ranking. -He had no real slot WR after Crowder went down early in the season. -His WR2 turned out to be a high end WR3/big play threat. -Josh Allen busted up his elbow halfway through the season and clearly wasn't right, albeit improving, throughout the rest of the season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 Just now, ScottLaw said: I usually agree with your takes but I think you’re off on this one. It was time for him go. They’ve invested a whole ***** ton of assets into the defense to get these ***** show performances in the playoffs. Nope. I ain't. Leslie gets heat for some failed defensive investments. And the one thing I will say for Brandon Beane on this point is he would 100% agree with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 4 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said: To me it isn’t even about his inability to slow down Mahomes and Burrow, there aren’t many teams who can. I mean, you’d like more resistance than tissue paper, sure, but I didn’t think it defined Frazier necessarily. When I think about his tenure, I think back to the Houston game on that 3rd and 18, when the players were lined up so far back that they weren’t in position to make a stop after the ball was thrown 8 yards. I think about the second half collapse against Indy as well. He’s almost always had a plan for Lamar Jackson, so I will most definitely give him his flowers there. But his conservative approach has shown to backfire time and time again but it’s all he knows, so he can do no different when the chips are on the table. Again, it was time for a change. Agreed, which is why negative plays are so important in the playoffs. This defense, under Frazier, with core guys like Edmunds, Oliver and Poyer just didn't create them when it mattered in the postseason. The defense simply isn't aggressive enough for that to occur, unless we're to believe we need elite talent at every position...which isn't sustainable. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeF Posted February 28, 2023 Share Posted February 28, 2023 (edited) Rex is still on the market....if Vance Joseph can go back to Denver..why not Rex...😉 Edited February 28, 2023 by JoeF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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