Can you imagine being Allen last night?

[PBF81]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

That Beane drafted very well in his first 3 years and not so well in the last 3. Not sure how you could argue that overall.

 

He was a first ballot hall of famer and 3 time MVP are you saying that's not good enough and you wouldn't be happy if Josh had his career? Clearly people thought he was the best player in a season 3 times. Your argument sounds a little revisionist. 

 

A couple thoughts, Beane wasn't here for that first of the first three drafts (2017).  After that, I'd disagree with you on 2019, Day 1 was not good at all.  But I understand that there's a huge degree of subjectivity in the Drafts, I think that how people evaluate those often comes down to experience.  

 

But let's be real, at the end of the day the single draft pick that stands out among all others, entirely indisputably, is Allen.  

 

I will say this, over the "Last 20 Years" we've had a litany of coaches and GMs.  Fans argued in defense saying similar things about Whaley and Donahoe, and about Levy, Nix, and Brandon to a lesser extent.  But they didn't last long, but put Allen on their teams, and the same conversations would arise.  I even think that Gailey would have done better than McD with Allen.  Perhaps Williams too, he had Van Pelt and Bledsoe, the latter one of the worst playoff QBs in NFL history.  

 

Same for coaching.  I don't see our team having been any different during that "Last 20 Years" than it is now, other than having NE challenging for the division every season, if Williams, Gailey, possibly even Ryan or Jauron had had Allen.  None of those coaches would navigate us through the playoffs to win it all, but with Allen they'd likely have made the playoffs, thereby relegating that "Last 20 Years" to nonexistence.  I don't see much of a difference now, besides Allen.  

 

Here's the thing, some people see that McD's missing something, something critical.  It's obvious in several ways.  

 

First, on gamedays he runs up and down the sideline clapping like one of those chime monkeys, what, apparently thinking that if in good participation-ribbon style everyone's a winner and "they'll do better next time" during games when we're clearly not cutting the Webers.  This is particularly noticeable in the playoffs.  

 

He preaches character and accountability, the latter which is a trait of the first, but we can write the summaries for all of his future post-game pressers right now;  ...

 

'We need to do better.  This falls on me, I'm ultimately responsible.  We'll look at the tape and see what we can change.  [blah blah blah]" 

 

Here's the problem with that, nothing ever changes.  Nothing.  And if we're going to be honest here, his biggest failures are hardly of the "yeah, we should have gone for it on 4th ..." type things, they're incredibly egregious breakdowns in tactics and strategy that even well-seasoned fans know better than to do or not do.  

 

But again, nothing changes.  Accountability?  So we fire the Safeties Coach?  The position coach that had one of his two starters out all season, the other injured most of it, with questionable backups, and whose unit still outperformed most of the other units on the team?  THAT'S accountability?  

 

This doesn't go unnoticed, by fans, media, etc.  In fact, it goes very very noticed.  And just like Brady won Belichick 4-6 extra games every season, so too Allen clearly is the reason for most of our wins.  But let's do a simple exercise, let's suppose that Allen is only responsible for a mere 4 wins/season.  That's it, just 4, when we all know it's much higher.  Here would be McD's record without Allen, and I'll only include the last three seasons because Allen was developing in his first tow, in fairness;  

 

9-7, 7-9, 9-6  

 

Suppose he had those records.  Would the support for him be the same?  For Beane?  Obviously not.  We wouldn't have even won the division, much less done anything in the playoffs, with that.  

 

Some people see that, others do not.  That's the foibles of a fan community where anyone can opine and say their piece.  OTOH, does it really matter, ... what you and I disagree on?  Not really.  OBD isn't reading these threads figuring out what to do.  LOL  

 

So it's fun to bicker and argue about, but "let's not bicker and argue over who killed who."   (Presumably you get the reference)  LOL  

 

Stay at piece my friend!!  

 

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by PBF81

[Billsfan1972]

16 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

How  Does this change the fact that Josh has been a bit sloppy over his career as to ball security? Earning that rep…,

What does this have to do with Allen?  I was pointing out just how terrible a play it was and yes stating after the year Allen had if it was him, it would have been discussed ad nauseum, but the announcers didn't even make a big deal about it.  

 

Take a look at the 4th comment in this thread when I did joke about "If it had been Allen".

 

Start a new thread discussing Allen's to's, because there haven't been enough.😉

Edited February 13, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Big Turk]

Just now, PBF81 said:

 

A couple thoughts, Beane wasn't here for that first of the first three drafts (2017).  After that, I'd disagree with you on 2019, Day 1 was not good at all.  But I understand that there's a huge degree of subjectivity in the Drafts, I think that how people evaluate those often comes down to experience.  

 

But let's be real, at the end of the day the single draft pick that stands out among all others, entirely indisputably, is Allen.  

 

I will say this, over the "Last 20 Years" we've had a litany of coaches and GMs.  Fans argued in defense saying similar things about Whaley and Donahoe, and about Levy, Nix, and Brandon to a lesser extent.  But they didn't last long, but put Allen on their teams, and the same conversations would arise. 

 

Same for coaching.  I don't see our team having been any different during that "Last 20 Years" than it is now, other than having NE challenging for the division every season, if Williams, Gailey, possibly even Ryan or Jauron had had Allen.  None of those coaches would navigate us through the playoffs to win it all, but with Allen they'd likely have made the playoffs, thereby relegating that "Last 20 Years" to nonexistence.  I don't see much of a difference now, besides Allen.  

 

Here's the thing, some people see that McD's missing something, something critical.  It's obvious in several ways.  

 

First, on gamedays he runs up and down the sideline clapping like one of those chime monkeys, what, apparently thinking that if in good participation-ribbon style everyone's a winner and "they'll do better next time" during games when we're clearly not cutting the Webers.  This is particularly noticeable in the playoffs.  

 

He preaches character and accountability, the latter which is a trait of the first, but we can write the summaries for all of his future post-game pressers right now;  ...

 

'We need to do better.  This falls on me, I'm ultimately responsible.  We'll look at the tape and see what we can change.  [blah blah blah]" 

 

Here's the problem with that, nothing ever changes.  Nothing.  And if we're going to be honest here, his biggest failures are hardly of the "yeah, we should have gone for it on 4th ..." type things, they're incredibly egregious breakdowns in tactics and strategy that even well-seasoned fans know better than to do or not do.  

 

But again, nothing changes.  Accountability?  So we fire the Safeties Coach?  The position coach that had one of his two starters out all season, the other injured most of it, with questionable backups, and whose unit still outperformed most of the other units on the team?  THAT'S accountability?  

 

This doesn't go unnoticed, by fans, media, etc.  In fact, it goes very very noticed.  And just like Brady won Belichick 4-6 extra games every season, so too Allen clearly is the reason for most of our wins.  But let's do a simple exercise, let's suppose that Allen is only responsible for a mere 4 wins/season.  That's it, just 4, when we all know it's much higher.  Here would be McD's record without Allen, and I'll only include the last three seasons because Allen was developing in his first tow, in fairness;  

 

9-7, 7-9, 9-6  

 

Suppose he had those records.  Would the support for him be the same?  For Beane?  Obviously not.  We wouldn't have even won the division, much less done anything in the playoffs, with that.  

 

Some people see that, others do not.  That's the foibles of a fan community where anyone can opine and say their piece.  OTOH, does it really matter, ... what you and I disagree on?  Not really.  OBD isn't reading these threads figuring out what to do.  LOL  

 

So it's fun to bicker and argue about, but "let's not bicker and argue over who killed who."   (Presumably you get the reference)  LOL  

 

Stay at piece my friend!!  

 

 

 

Sounds similar to what people said about Andy Reid for 15 years.

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

2 hours ago, whorlnut said:

I can’t even imagine what was going through our star qbs head last night while he was watching that game. He saw 2 dominant OL’s completely handle the other team’s defensive front and give their qbs the time they needed to do their jobs. Allen is a team first guy and would NEVER throw his guys under the bus, but I can’t imagine for one second he isn’t envious of the Mahomes and hurts.

 

This is why Beane has no choice this off-season other than to overhaul the wall in front of Allen. His defensive heavy offseasons haven’t been the answer in the playoffs. This is an offense first league and good offensive lines can negate a good to great defensive line. 

I bet he was thinking how boring and easy those two QB’s have it. 😃

[Don Otreply]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

What does this have to do with Allen?  I was pointing out just how terrible a play it was and yes stating after the year Allen had if it was him, it would have been discussed ad nauseum, but the announcers didn't even make a big deal about it.  

 

Take a look at the 4th comment in this thread when I did joke about "If it had been Allen".

 

Start a new thread discussing Allen's to's, because there haven't been enough.😉

Dude, you brought Allen into the thread by wanting to compare  responses to a fumble, duh…, 😂

[PBF81]

6 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Sounds similar to what people said about Andy Reid for 15 years.

 

LMAO

 

Yeah, except with one MAJOR exception!  

 

ALLEN!!!  

 

Reid had Pederson, McNabb, and Vick.  What's next, you going to explain to us all that those QBs were just as good as Allen now too?  

 

Put Allen on those teams, do you think it would have changed the perceptions of him?  

 

And still, he regularly had his Eagles in the playoffs, usually winning his division, with incredible division competition in some of those years, unlike McD, in 9 of those 14 seasons.  

 

You can't have it both ways, that Allen's so great, but other teams that don't have an Allen, Mahomes, Burrow, etc., have no excuses.  Yet, that's your position.  

 

 

[Real McClappy]

27 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

Thanks. Took it from here; did they overlook Mahomes’ fumbles? 0 did look low!
https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask/nfl-qb-most-turnovers-2022

you're right, another link had wrong data

[4th&long]

Allen would have been bettered by the eagles defensive line. 

[Billsfan1972]

8 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Dude, you brought Allen into the thread by wanting to compare  responses to a fumble, duh…, 😂

I was making a joke about the thread title and thinking it was about the fumble.  I pointed out just how terrible it was.  

 

Wasn't meant to be a debate on Allen, more so to discuss just how bad a play it was.

 

Obviously missing the nuance. 

Edited February 13, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[Don Otreply]

2 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

I was making a joke about the thread title and thinking it was bout the fumble.  I pointed out just how terrible it was.  

 

Wasn't meant to be a debate on Allen, more so to discuss just how bad a play it was.

 

Obviously missing the nuance. 

Ah, didn’t read every post, my bad, 

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, 4th&long said:

Allen would have been bettered by the eagles defensive line. 

 

Yesterday?  

 

Ya think?  

[julian]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I love Josh. 

 

I think the narrative that he can do no wrong and is constantly let down by everyone around him is false.

Allen is his biggest critic, he owns his poor play every time without failure, as long as he realizes his mistakes and continues to try and improve his game then why in the hell do you care that some fans won’t criticize him ?

[UKBillFan]

2 minutes ago, julian said:

Allen is his biggest critic, he owns his poor play every time without failure, as long as he realizes his mistakes and continues to try and improve his game then why in the hell do you care that some fans won’t criticize him ?

 

I think the concerning thing is holds up his hands and admits errors, and does beat himself up over them, but there's very little in signs of change or improvement. Is the criticism of Josh this post season any different to what was said about him before the post season in 2021? In 2019? 2018? He had a breakthrough season in 2020, but hasn't hit the same heights since then. Still elite, but the 2020 regular season/2021 post season shows him at his peak. Understandably, he can't get there all the time but he should have the ability to raise his floor.

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, julian said:

Allen is his biggest critic, he owns his poor play every time without failure, as long as he realizes his mistakes and continues to try and improve his game then why in the hell do you care that some fans won’t criticize him ?

Because it’s a football discussion board and “Josh is great SHUT UP” isn’t good discussion 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

I love Josh. 

 

I think the narrative that he can do no wrong and is constantly let down by everyone around him is false.

Well FC, I do agree Josh is not infallible but of the top 5 qbs in this league,  Josh clearly has the weakest OL.  And you can't deny the propensity for turnovers is greatly enhanced by this fact.  Now add no WR2 or consistent run game and things get even more amplified.  

[PBF81]

15 minutes ago, julian said:

Allen is his biggest critic, he owns his poor play every time without failure, as long as he realizes his mistakes and continues to try and improve his game then why in the hell do you care that some fans won’t criticize him ?

 

If we got so much from McD.  ... or Beane for that matter.  Those guys quietly hide behind carefully crafted statements, preach "character," but then don't practice accountability, which is a huge component of character.  They may think that everyone's too stupid to see that, but most people see it quite clearly.  

 

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Because it’s a football discussion board and “Josh is great SHUT UP” isn’t good discussion 

 

Well taken, but Josh isn't what's holding this team up, to the contrary.  If you want to live by the big play potential of your own QB, then be prepared to die by it too.  

 

Where would McD be, and by inference Beane, if Allen were not our QB?  We wouldn't even have won the division to date ant that "Last 20 Years" would be "The Last 25 Years ... and counting."  

 

We have a fan base starving for a Super Bowl win, a Championship.  If we put up a poll as to who of us will be content to simply "making the playoffs" during McBeane's tenure, w/o ever sniffing a Championship, I'm guessing that the results stating that they'd be satisfied with that would be incredibly low, if not zero outright.  

 

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by PBF81

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

If we got so much from McD.  ... or Beane for that matter.  Those guys quietly hide behind carefully crafted statements, preach "character," but then don't practice accountability, which is a huge component of character.  They may think that everyone's too stupid to see that, but most people see it quite clearly.  

 

 

Well taken, but Josh isn't what's holding this team up, to the contrary.  If you want to live by the big play potential of your own QB, then be prepared to die by it too.  

 

Where would McD be, and by inference Beane, if Allen were not our QB?  We wouldn't even have won the division to date ant that "Last 20 Years" would be "The Last 25 Years ... and counting."  

 

We have a fan base starving for a Super Bowl win, a Championship.  If we put up a poll as to who of us will be content to simply "making the playoffs" during McBeane's tenure, w/o ever sniffing a Championship, I'm guessing that the results stating that they'd be satisfied with that would be incredibly low, if not zero outright.  

 

 

 

Where would Andy Reid be without Mahomes?  We already know, zero Super Bowls.

 

I disagree ENTIRELY that Josh's recent propensity for TO's have not held this team back.  In the Bills 3 losses last year (which locked them out of the 1 seed after the cancelled Bengals game), Josh had 4 picks and 2 FL.  1 less TO of the SIX that he had means we would probably have locked up the 1 seed, the bye (which this team desperately needed), and the path of Jaguars to AFCCG at home vs the winner of Chiefs/Bengals.

 

Does that mean we would have won the Superbowl or even the AFCCG?  No, we may not have. But if I had the choice of bye, Jags, then winner of Bengals/Chiefs then Super Bowl vs Dolphins, Bengals, Chiefs in Arrowhead then Superbowl, I take option 1 all day every day.

[PBF81]

8 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Where would Andy Reid be without Mahomes?  We already know, zero Super Bowls.

 

I disagree ENTIRELY that Josh's recent propensity for TO's have not held this team back.  In the Bills 3 losses last year (which locked them out of the 1 seed after the cancelled Bengals game), Josh had 4 picks and 2 FL.  1 less TO of the SIX that he had means we would probably have locked up the 1 seed, the bye (which this team desperately needed), and the path of Jaguars to AFCCG at home vs the winner of Chiefs/Bengals.

 

Does that mean we would have won the Superbowl or even the AFCCG?  No, we may not have. But if I had the choice of bye, Jags, then winner of Bengals/Chiefs then Super Bowl vs Dolphins, Bengals, Chiefs in Arrowhead then Superbowl, I take option 1 all day every day.

 

Well, OK, I think you're only looking at  part of the picture.  How many games have we won that we otherwise would have lost had we had any number of the QBs we've had prior to Allen.  How about Peterman?  Do you think that we'd have even posted a winning record with him, McD's endorsement?   Does that make any kind of impact regarding your respect for McD?  Just sayin'. 

 

How about Tyrod Taylor?  Fitzpatrick?  Manuel?  Orton?  Bledsoe?  etc.  

I don't think we'd even have won a division title with them under McD.  

 

Besides, we have Allen, Reid has Mahomes.  Are you saying that we're forever incapable of beating Reid/Mahomes with McD/Allen then?  Sure seems like it.  And if so, then what are we waiting for.  And we're not getting rid of Allen.  

[Solomon Grundy]

3 hours ago, whorlnut said:

I can’t even imagine what was going through our star qbs head last night while he was watching that game. He saw 2 dominant OL’s completely handle the other team’s defensive front and give their qbs the time they needed to do their jobs. Allen is a team first guy and would NEVER throw his guys under the bus, but I can’t imagine for one second he isn’t envious of the Mahomes and hurts.

 

This is why Beane has no choice this off-season other than to overhaul the wall in front of Allen. His defensive heavy offseasons haven’t been the answer in the playoffs. This is an offense first league and good offensive lines can negate a good to great defensive line. 

Those QBs were experiencing pressure yesterday. Schemes got the ball out quickly and the QBs mobility helped them out too. The threat of a run game slowed the rush down also

[PBF81]

... and BTW, just as with Levy, if we had had Johnson or Parcells as our coach instead of Levy, yes, I think we'd have at least 2 Championships under our belt now.  

 

Same for McD.  If Reid were the coach of this team, or Zac Taylor, I think we'd have won one by now as well.  Same for several other coaches of offensive miind.  

 

Using that argument to suggest that all that McD needs is 15 more years and he too can win a SB is ridiculous.  Particularly since Reid didn't have Mahomes or Allen back then.  If he had, yeah, I'm sure he'd have won one back then.  

 

He made the playoffs regularly, usually winning the division back then, with three QBs none of which was better than above-average.  He was in one SB and lost by 3 points.  Yeah, I think that had he had an Allen or Mahomes back then, that yes, he'd have won that one and likely another or two.  

 

Reid was still a good coach back then and didn't make the blundering tactical errors that McD makes.  

 

"The Process" has run its course.  

 

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by PBF81