There was similar angst in the late '80s

[BillsfaninChicago]

There is kind of a good news bad news situation with comparing the 2020’s Bills with the 80/90’s Bills.

 

The good news is we are actually not only comparable to those teams but arguably better. The bad news however is that those earlier teams never won the big one and it can be concerning that some of these similarities could mean history can potentially repeat itself.

[Doc Brown]

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

Prior to the SB’s, 7 of the previous 8 seasons were 9 or less wins.

 

The run of success we are having now is more similar of the actual SB years… minus the playoff success.

I guess if you want to compare eras this is probably correct given how there wasn't a consistently elite team besides us in the AFC at the time throughout that four year stretch.  Miami was always cute though.  We'll call the Giants game our 13 seconds and the Redskins/Cowboys the Chiefs/Bengals.

 

There's plenty of differences obviously but the most glaring one is Allen is 26 while Kelly was 33 (two weeks away from 34) when we lost the last Super Bowl.

[NastyNateSoldiers]

7 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

Jim Kelly had Thurman and a man named Ted Marchibroda... we don't have either as far as I'm concerned yet. With Ken Dorsey as the OC, Allen is going to get KILT and he will end up with a shortened career. That's the huge difference that you are missing here... we need an OC that will bring balance to this team and not drive Josh into the damn ground.

Plus they don’t have the heart and talent on defense. Bruce, Bennett, Talley, Odomes etc etc . 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

52 minutes ago, BillsfaninChicago said:

There is kind of a good news bad news situation with comparing the 2020’s Bills with the 80/90’s Bills.

 

The good news is we are actually not only comparable to those teams but arguably better. The bad news however is that those earlier teams never won the big one and it can be concerning that some of these similarities could mean history can potentially repeat itself.

I don’t believe it’s close the 90s team would destroy this team. That team had 5 hofers , better Oline better dline better lbers just about better everywhere including coaching . 

Can u imagine McD and Frazier gearing up to stop that offense? It would be a mismatch. Please never act like it’s close because it’s not. Thurman and that Oline would control the game Reed and Lofton would destroy our secondary because they’ll just be laying back in there zones. 
 

On Defense Bruce and the boys would force Allen into multiple mistakes. If those 2 teams would play I say the 90s Bills would be favored by double digits easy . 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

7 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Well our QB and WR1 are better than Kelly/Reed, but after that things drop off. Assuming Von can stay healthy,  he'll probably give us 2 years close to Bruce numbers.  Our OL, WR2 and RB are far from the production we got in the 90's. And our coaching now is somewhat inferior to Marv, Ted, Walt/Wade.  Maybe if we pour Rousseau,  Epenesa & Basham into a big mold, out comes Bruce 2.0?  Probably not.....

I’ll take Kelly and Reed all day over Allen and Diggs. Some people don’t know how good Reed really was he would put up insane numbers in this era so would Kelly. They we’re big game players yes we lost all those superbowls but in the playoffs Kelly and Reed were amazing. Kelly was a master at throwing the ball in horrible conditions at the Ralph . That’s the difference for me. Diggs also gets taken out of playoff games u hardly ever seen that with Reed. Put some respect on those players names! 

[TAinLack.]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

I guess if you want to compare eras this is probably correct given how there wasn't a consistently elite team besides us in the AFC at the time throughout that four year stretch.  Miami was always cute though.  We'll call the Giants game our 13 seconds and the Redskins/Cowboys the Chiefs/Bengals.

 

There's plenty of differences obviously but the most glaring one is Allen is 26 while Kelly was 33 (two weeks away from 34) when we lost the last Super Bowl.

Another obvious difference was Kelly had a pretty solid offensive line protecting him back then.  They had to be good, Kelly was pocket passer and not boot legging QB.

Give Allen a solid O line with a half decent running game and watch what happens despite where the D is right now!

Edited February 2, 2023 by TAinLA
spelling

[Matt_In_NH]

Every off season there are threads where people try to find parallels to the 90's teams.   Who really wants that to repeat itself?   History does not have to repeat itself, there are countless ways good teams go through their lifecycle and just because you remember one from 30 years ago, it has zero bearing on any current one.  I live in NE and here everyone is alwasy thinking they have the next Brady, last year it was Mac, this year it was Zappe coming off the bench after an injury like Brady did.   Enjoy the ride is what I say....part of sports is it is unpredictable, there are no guarantees but I will take my chances with 17.

49 minutes ago, TAinLA said:

Another obvious difference was Kelly had a pretty solid offensive line protecting him back then.  They had to be good, Kelly was pocket passer and not boot legging QB.

Give Allen a solid O line with a half decent running game and watch what happens despite where the D is right now!

Not saying the OL can not be improved but what about the running game was not decent?  The only thing I can say is they don't do it enough, it is very successful when they actually run.  I think they should run more but this team has scored the most points the last three years so it is hard to argue it matters.

[Nuncha]

14 hours ago, Success said:

There are a lot of parallels to those teams, imo.  We knew we had a top QB in Kelly as soon as he came over from the USFL.  We had great players on defense and offense through those years.  Once we got to the playoffs, there was a combo of heartbreak and underachievement.  There was a lot of infighting and doubt, most famously remembered as the "Bickering Bills."

 

Then, it all changed.  It's like breaking through a brick wall.  Before you do it, it's like...how do we do it?  Then, the floodgates open.

 

The big difference is that the AFC is tougher now. But that AFC was no slouch. We had Dan Marino, arguably a top 5 of all time, in the division. John Elway & Warren Moon also come to mind.

 

We're going to get there.  I have no doubt about it.  QB's like Allen win championships.

 

 

I agree somewhat.  However, this team does not have players the caliber of Bruce Smith, Thuman Thomas, or even Steve Tasker.  More work needs to be done to get over the hump.

[BuffaloMatt]

14 hours ago, FeelingOnYouboty said:

Optimism when the Chiefs have lapped us and the Bengals have jumped us <<<

I too choose optimism. Sometimes a small step back in success allows you to see what needs to be adjusted. KC did not lap us, they just stayed ahead of us, and guess what... Cincy was already ahead of us too. We just didn't get the chance to lose to them last year. Optimism doesn't cloud by view of the Bills. They were good but incomplete when you play top 6 talent and it showed.

 

Onto 2023!  

[RyanC883]

15 hours ago, EasternOHBillsFan said:

 

Jim Kelly had Thurman and a man named Ted Marchibroda... we don't have either as far as I'm concerned yet. With Ken Dorsey as the OC, Allen is going to get KILT and he will end up with a shortened career. That's the huge difference that you are missing here... we need an OC that will bring balance to this team and not drive Josh into the damn ground.

 

agreed.  And Bean appears clueless, as he has critized one area of Josh's play is that he "takes too many hits."  Well, genius, if you got him an actual OL and RB, he wouldn't have to be our QB who is always running for his life, and our top rusher.  

6 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I’ll take Kelly and Reed all day over Allen and Diggs. Some people don’t know how good Reed really was he would put up insane numbers in this era so would Kelly. They we’re big game players yes we lost all those superbowls but in the playoffs Kelly and Reed were amazing. Kelly was a master at throwing the ball in horrible conditions at the Ralph . That’s the difference for me. Diggs also gets taken out of playoff games u hardly ever seen that with Reed. Put some respect on those players names! 

 

a good analysis, but Kelly and Reed (and I agree that Reed is horribly underrated) were fantastic, but they had a MUCH better cast around them from coaching, to OL, to RB, and other WRs.  Diggs disappears in playoffs because of the OC and lack of other threat anywhere.  

[Eastport bills]

This team is close. As close as that team that lost the Bengals in 89. We desperately need to put Josh in a better position to win. Play calling with balance and better protection is vital. If this coaching staff can’t provide this we’re wasting the best opportunity we’ll ever have.

[LABILLBACKER]

Give Josh the 90's OL and Thurman and he'd steamroll Jim.  Love Andre but so far I've seen Diggs make catches Reed would only dream of. And let's not forget Andre disappeared in 4 SB's.

[BillsPride12]

While I don't draw any parallels to teams from 30 years ago, if you are just comparing those teams straight up the biggest difference is how much better the Offensive Line was in the 90s era.  Right now we are not even close to being good enough in the trenches to get to or win a Super Bowl.  

[NastyNateSoldiers]

7 hours ago, TAinLA said:

Another obvious difference was Kelly had a pretty solid offensive line protecting him back then.  They had to be good, Kelly was pocket passer and not boot legging QB.

Give Allen a solid O line with a half decent running game and watch what happens despite where the D is right now!

I agree give Allen that Oline and backs and he’ll be unstoppable. Just give Allen a Kennth Davis type back that would help . 

[IronyAbounds]

2 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Give Josh the 90's OL and Thurman and he'd steamroll Jim.  Love Andre but so far I've seen Diggs make catches Reed would only dream of. And let's not forget Andre disappeared in 4 SB's.

Reed disappeared? Really? He caught a total of 27 passes for 323 yards in the 4 SB games (8-62 in 90, 5-34 in 91, 8-152 in 92 and 6-75 in 93). Could he have done better, I suppose, but those aren't disappearance numbers by any measure and they came against Super Bowl caliber teams. Meanwhile Diggs is 0 for 0 yards in SB appearances, and as a Bill his stats in 7 playoff games against only one team that made a Super Bowl are 37 receptions for 527. Diggs has a couple more yards per catch but otherwise he has fewer receptions and yards per game. I think Andre did just fine in Super Bowls.

[CDogg20]

19 hours ago, Ray Stonada said:

Josh Allen is still 2 years younger then Kelly was when he first made the playoffs (1988). 
 

There is a long time to come, with Josh Allen, and I will bet we win a Super Bowl or more. 

Thats crazy to think about

[nucci]

20 hours ago, Success said:

There are a lot of parallels to those teams, imo.  We knew we had a top QB in Kelly as soon as he came over from the USFL.  We had great players on defense and offense through those years.  Once we got to the playoffs, there was a combo of heartbreak and underachievement.  There was a lot of infighting and doubt, most famously remembered as the "Bickering Bills."

 

Then, it all changed.  It's like breaking through a brick wall.  Before you do it, it's like...how do we do it?  Then, the floodgates open.

 

The big difference is that the AFC is tougher now. But that AFC was no slouch. We had Dan Marino, arguably a top 5 of all time, in the division. John Elway & Warren Moon also come to mind.

 

We're going to get there.  I have no doubt about it.  QB's like Allen win championships.

 

 

when?

[ngbills]

23 hours ago, Success said:

There are a lot of parallels to those teams, imo.  We knew we had a top QB in Kelly as soon as he came over from the USFL.  We had great players on defense and offense through those years.  Once we got to the playoffs, there was a combo of heartbreak and underachievement.  There was a lot of infighting and doubt, most famously remembered as the "Bickering Bills."

 

Then, it all changed.  It's like breaking through a brick wall.  Before you do it, it's like...how do we do it?  Then, the floodgates open.

 

The big difference is that the AFC is tougher now. But that AFC was no slouch. We had Dan Marino, arguably a top 5 of all time, in the division. John Elway & Warren Moon also come to mind.

 

We're going to get there.  I have no doubt about it.  QB's like Allen win championships.

 

 

Chiefs are more like the Bills. We are the Dolphins, Oilers, Chiefs, etc. 

[EasternOHBillsFan]

7 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

agreed.  And Bean appears clueless, as he has critized one area of Josh's play is that he "takes too many hits."  Well, genius, if you got him an actual OL and RB, he wouldn't have to be our QB who is always running for his life, and our top rusher.  

 

AGREED!!! Josh must think he has the whole team on his back at this point, and presses and presses and presses.

 

One of these days he will completely break down physically and then the chickens will come home to roost. How much can McBeane put on this man?!?! How damn much???

[BillsfaninChicago]

21 hours ago, NastyNateSoldiers said:

I don’t believe it’s close the 90s team would destroy this team. That team had 5 hofers , better Oline better dline better lbers just about better everywhere including coaching . 

Can u imagine McD and Frazier gearing up to stop that offense? It would be a mismatch. Please never act like it’s close because it’s not. Thurman and that Oline would control the game Reed and Lofton would destroy our secondary because they’ll just be laying back in there zones. 
 

On Defense Bruce and the boys would force Allen into multiple mistakes. If those 2 teams would play I say the 90s Bills would be favored by double digits easy . 

You are right there and maybe I should have rephrased that. Adjusted for free agency, QB and passing game protection rules as well as other modern day factors this team is in the same discussion as the 80’s and 90’s Bills teams.
 

That however is somewhat ancillary to my main point.  As great as those Kelly teams were the fact they did not get a ring they produced only successful failures each season. As of now that is the case now with the Allen teams.

 

I agree with what the OP is saying and I think history can give a gauge of where we are in the development of this current team. That is why it is a little concerning that as great as those classic teams were. And how it is a fantastic story that they overcame adversity such as  the “Bickering Bills” issues they still did not win a Super Bowl.