Logic Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 (edited) As I watched multiple games on Sunday, it was impossible to ignore. In game after game, players were stopped by a horde of defenders, only for a group of their teammates to rally to the pile, pushing the whole mass of humanity for an extra 3-7 yards. When it happens, it looks less like pro football and more like a rugby scrum. I've been reading a book called How Football Became Football: 150 Years of the Game's Evolution, and in it, I learned that American football used to look a lot like what we've seen recently: huge piles of humanity pushing on each other, fighting for every yard. Basically, it wasn't far removed from rugby when it began. Players even had loops sewn onto their pants for a time for their teammates to grab onto to either push or pull them more easily. One of the earliest debates in football was how to spread the game out, make it less dangerous, and less of a tedious "three yards and a cloud of dust" affair. These "momentum plays", as they called them, lead to a ton of injuries, and to a frankly ugly, more brutish, less exciting form of football. The ability of a running back or receiver to gain yardage is de-emphasized in favor of the ability of a group of players to push harder than another group of players. After years of this ugly, rugby-style pile pushing, rule changes in football eventually disallowed it. For most of the history of modern pro football as we know it, pushing or pulling the pile in the manner we have recently seen has not been allowed. In 2006, a rule change made pushing the pile legal again (though pulling is still technically not legal). For whatever reason, it took until this season for it to really become as common and prevalent as it has. The question is, should it be allowed? Are these big pile-push scrums really American Football? I'm curious to know how other football fans feel about this issue. Edited December 5, 2022 by Logic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Krentist Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Yes, when it works for us and no when it works for the other team 😆 1 4 8 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 I dont know. I get why it is offputting and offenses are weaponizing it. But I can see how an attempt at a black and white rule will have a million unintended consequences. I dont think it should be a penalty if they outlaw it. Maybe say the ball is/was dead at that spot. I can see a big 3rd and 1 or something and something was kind of a push, but not really, maybe accidental contact results in a 5 yard penalty completely changing a game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warcodered Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 I think maybe it's more the refs need to be better at blowing the play dead, when the runner gets stuffed for a good bit only for some linemen to arrive late to push the pile yeah that's a bit much, but when they're just pushing the pile from the start that's just football. 3 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillies Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 I don't like it, especially when it's so obvious. Years ago they would at least pretend to be blocking someone while also helping the runner - now it's extended arms right into the back. I would prefer it to be a penalty. 3 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
f0neguy Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 I would like it if it were illegal to push from behind the line of scrimmage. On plays downfield, let it go as it does now. That way you’re not getting the scripted play that everyone hates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Nope, it used to be illegal but now it's allowed.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, Warcodered said: I think maybe it's more the refs need to be better at blowing the play dead, when the runner gets stuffed for a good bit only for some linemen to arrive late to push the pile yeah that's a bit much, but when they're just pushing the pile from the start that's just football. This. Sometimes they do blow it dead a little early too though. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Until it's officially not, it's okay. The problem is, it is changing the refs call on momentum stops. Hard to fairly legislate it now. Does feel like it's not in the spirit of the game though 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoPoy88 Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 2 minutes ago, Warcodered said: I think maybe it's more the refs need to be better at blowing the play dead, when the runner gets stuffed for a good bit only for some linemen to arrive late to push the pile yeah that's a bit much, but when they're just pushing the pile from the start that's just football. yes. I’ve no problem with the pushing assistance. It’s not like it’s become rampant - it’s used in limited situations. If officials did their jobs better and enforced progress stoppage, this wouldn’t be an issue. But we all know improving officiating isn’t a priority for Roger or the league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted December 5, 2022 Author Share Posted December 5, 2022 1 minute ago, wjag said: Until it's officially not, it's okay. The problem is, it is changing the refs call on momentum stops. Hard to fairly legislate it now. Does feel like it's not in the spirit of the game though This is where I'm at. If it is totally legal and viable to push piles like this, it could completely change the game, and not in a way that I think the NFL would want it changed. It de-emphasizes individual player skill and playcalling and instead rewards sheer brute strength in numbers. It moves away from American football as we have known it and more toward rugby. I think the NFL is going to look at altering the language of the rule or re-outlawing pushing altogether this offseason. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 just what the game needs is another subjective call to be made by officials 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyBatty is alive Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 No, it is getting out of control, especially by Wyatt Teller and the Browns yesterday. Someone is going to get hurt by it, it looks like a rugby scrum. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Keep it legal. It reminds me of the old Rugby days. Ground and pound. Old school football. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 It's a non-issue 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said: No, it is getting out of control, especially by Wyatt Teller and the Browns yesterday. Someone is going to get hurt by it, it looks like a rugby scrum. Correct rugby term is "Maul", thank you very much! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 When the NFL started, this was a very common play where it devolved into rugby scrums with players from both sides trying to push a player with the ball forward/backwards. Likely also why the games usually had lots of injuries and games routinely ended in 0-0 ties. A one TD lead was nearly insurmountable back then. It's part of the game and hasn't turned into anything close to that, so I am fine with leaving it in. Just a play where football still maintains something from it's roots so to speak. There aren't many of those things left, I don't think we need to eliminate them completely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said: No, it is getting out of control, especially by Wyatt Teller and the Browns yesterday. Someone is going to get hurt by it, it looks like a rugby scrum. I agree someone is going to get hurt but I'm not saying it should be illegal. I will say I think the DCs will start to look at this and try to find a way to counter it. I got mixed feelings about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logic Posted December 5, 2022 Author Share Posted December 5, 2022 Just now, GoBills808 said: It's a non-issue Suppose that in the AFC championship game, the Bills only need to stop an opponent on 4th down to seal a victory. They call the perfect defense, the defenders execute, and two linebackers converge on the opposing ball-carrier 1 yard deep in the backfield, stopping him definitively for a loss. The defenders begin to ease up just the slightest bit, figuring the play is dead and they don't want to risk a personal foul. But the refs don't blow the whistle, so three of the opponent's teammates run up to the player and push him forward for a 1st down. Perfect playcall, perfect execution, but the subjectivity of when to blow the whistle leads to the play continuing, and the ball carrier happens to have more guys around to push him forward than the defense does to push him backward. The playcall and execution are moot, and sheer numbers and brute strength win out, with aid to referee subjectivity. Would you still feel it's a non-issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDawkinstein Posted December 5, 2022 Share Posted December 5, 2022 Just now, Logic said: Suppose that in the AFC championship game, the Bills only need to stop an opponent on 4th down to seal a victory. They call the perfect defense, the defenders execute, and two linebackers converge on the opposing ball-carrier 1 yard deep in the backfield, stopping him definitively for a loss. The defenders begin to ease up just the slightest bit, figuring the play is dead and they don't want to risk a personal foul. But the refs don't blow the whistle, so three of the opponent's teammates run up to the player and push him forward for a 1st down. Perfect playcall, perfect execution, but the subjectivity of when to blow the whistle leads to the play continuing, and the ball carrier happens to have more guys around to push him forward than the defense does to push him backward. The playcall and execution are moot, and sheer numbers and brute strength win out, with aid to referee subjectivity. Would you still feel it's a non-issue? You are conflating the issue of determining Forward Progress, with this non-issue, basic play of pushing a pile on a running play that has been part of the game since its inception. Forward Progress is a different issue and highly subjective. The idea or act of pushing a runner, isnt. We want to stop them? Then stop them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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