LeGOATski Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said: I’m not sure that’s correct. The reason an airplane has lift is because of the shape of the wing. The ground depression at field level will have an impact on how the wind reacts as it moves across the ground surface. The shape of the surrounding grandstands can of course either concentrate or dissipate that flow. Picture funneling water into bowl. Even if the water is funnelled in at the bottom of the bowl, it's still gonna swirl around the bowl. The bowl shape and having one opening is all that matters. Not the elevation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 19 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: Picture funneling water into bowl. Even if the water is funnelled in at the bottom of the bowl, it's still gonna swirl around the bowl. The bowl shape and having one opening is all that matters. Not the elevation. As I mentioned, I’m no a wind expert…but it would seem that having a depression in a large flat surface would cause a disruption in the flow. Not an increase or concentration, but a disruption or ripple-like turbulence. No? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 29 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: I’m not sure that’s correct. The reason an airplane has lift is because of the shape of the wing. The ground depression at field level will have an impact on how the wind reacts as it moves across the ground surface. The shape of the surrounding grandstands can of course either concentrate or dissipate that flow. With one end of the current stadium being perpendicular to the prevailing wind, more wind concentrates or “collects” and swirls when trapped within the bowl. A shallower bowl “collects” less wind. At least that’s how a couple engineers explained it to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 30 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: Picture funneling water into bowl. Even if the water is funnelled in at the bottom of the bowl, it's still gonna swirl around the bowl. The bowl shape and having one opening is all that matters. Not the elevation. But the depth of the bowl will affect the flow and that’s what we are talking about; the deep 50 foot below grade field level. I assume your bowl is oval shaped like the stadium? Now, imagine if that funneled flow of water into that oval shaped bowl hits smack dab against the far wall of the bowl that’s directly perpendicular to it. What happens to that water after it hits that perpendicular side of the bowl? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 Wasn't this supposed to be angled relative to the main drive to look like the Vince Lombardi trophy from the air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 47 minutes ago, K-9 said: But the depth of the bowl will affect the flow and that’s what we are talking about; the deep 50 foot below grade field level. I assume your bowl is oval shaped like the stadium? Now, imagine if that funneled flow of water into that oval shaped bowl hits smack dab against the far wall of the bowl that’s directly perpendicular to it. What happens to that water after it hits that perpendicular side of the bowl? The wind's hitting the side of the bowl, either way. There's no escape route. That's got nothing to do with depth. Maybe you're saying there's two levels of wind flowing different directions due to the bowl? I guess I can see that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: TH….I’m not a ‘wind designer’ but I’d imagine lowering the field would indeed have an impact on how the wind reacts inside the stadium especially when it’s been funneled through the canyon created by the grandstands…like at Rich Stadium. That however doesn’t appear to be the case with the new stadium design which has enclosed end zones. Criminy….I was project manager for Birdair back in the day and was a PM for stadia projects in China, Europe, and Reliant Stadium - Houston. Every stadium will have computer wind model and a 3D scale wind tunnel test done by a firm in Toronto. These tests are obviously integral for stadia design….especially when a roof is involved. The elevation of the field relative to existing grade has zero ultimate bearing….it’s all about the total elevation and shape of the stadium. When any roof is part of the design …the wind load is typically governing for the roof…in uplift. I am sure the architects and engineers optimized the shape of the roof and orientation to minimize wind on the field.. Edited October 29, 2022 by TH3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 33 minutes ago, TH3 said: Criminy….I was project manager for Birdair back in the day and was a PM for stadia projects in China, Europe, and Reliant Stadium - Houston. Every stadium will have computer wind model and a 3D scale wind tunnel test done by a firm in Toronto. These tests are obviously integral for stadia design….especially when a roof is involved. The elevation of the field relative to existing grade has zero ultimate bearing….it’s all about the total elevation and shape of the stadium. When any roof is part of the design …the wind load is typically governing for the roof…in uplift. I am sure the architects and engineers optimized the shape of the roof and orientation to minimize wind on the field.. TH3….relax. I am an architect. I’m not suggesting it will be an issue. I’m agreeing with you that it can be designed around. (My point is that if you have a wide open plane of ground, a depression (valley, gulley, or crater) does effect the wind pattern, just as it does in a moving stream of water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 7 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: TH3….relax. I am an architect. I’m not suggesting it will be an issue. I’m agreeing with you that it can be designed around. (My point is that if you have a wide open plane of ground, a depression (valley, gulley, or crater) does effect the wind pattern, just as it does in a moving stream of water. I think what he's getting at is that it's the design of the stadium around it. The elevation of the bowl doesn't matter. The current stadium has wind issues because the structure around the bowl is short and open on one end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 Just now, LeGOATski said: I think what he's getting at is that it's the design of the stadium around it. The elevation of the bowl doesn't matter. The current stadium has wind issues because the structure around the bowl is short and open on one end. Excellent! Then we are ALL in agreement. 😉 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WotAGuy Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 4 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Excellent! Then we are ALL in agreement. 😉 Not so fast……. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Chandler's Hands Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 36 minutes ago, LeGOATski said: I think what he's getting at is that it's the design of the stadium around it. The elevation of the bowl doesn't matter. The current stadium has wind issues because the structure around the bowl is short and open on one end. I agree that the design is the most important thing, but it seems like having the field at lower elevation that the ground would mean less wind at velocity hitting the sides of the stadium as the boundary layer effect of fluid dynamics creates slower speeds as you get closer to ground level. Notice today how the flags at the top of the stadium will be out straight with whipping wind while on the field (or ground level outside) it isn't nearly that windy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted October 29, 2022 Share Posted October 29, 2022 26 minutes ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said: I agree that the design is the most important thing, but it seems like having the field at lower elevation that the ground would mean less wind at velocity hitting the sides of the stadium as the boundary layer effect of fluid dynamics creates slower speeds as you get closer to ground level. Notice today how the flags at the top of the stadium will be out straight with whipping wind while on the field (or ground level outside) it isn't nearly that windy. True, but that's already factored into any scenario. When it's windy, it's windy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 Umm... maybe we need @ExiledInIllinois to explain the winds and how the stadium is built affects that 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 17 hours ago, LeGOATski said: I think what he's getting at is that it's the design of the stadium around it. The elevation of the bowl doesn't matter. The current stadium has wind issues because the structure around the bowl is short and open on one end. I think what I am getting at is a bunch of anonymous posters on a forum opining with great confidence on something they actually no little about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 16 minutes ago, TH3 said: I think what I am getting at is a bunch of anonymous posters on a forum opining with great confidence on something they actually no little about. Pretty sure no one claimed to be experts. A bunch of posts in the vein of "I think it could be..." You claimed to have expertise, but at the same time you just seem to be "that guy." We get a lot of your type, too. Also, it's "know" not "no" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 On 10/29/2022 at 9:43 AM, Motorin' said: So you're saying there still a chance!?! Yes you win a mega-jackpot and donate it for the stadium. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 23 hours ago, SoCal Deek said: Thanks for sharing! It’s truly amazing how these facilities have evolved through the last century. The Bills three stadiums are excellent examples of all three major eras….although Rich Stadium being a football only stadium thankfully avoided the anonymous multi-purpose era of the early 70s. If you go to England you’ll see that the majority of their soccer stadiums are actually still located on their original grounds, in the middle of a little residential neighborhood, but now with modern grandstands looming up over what was once just a local park. Since everyone arrives via public transportation they don’t need the large parking lots we have. One thing I like about MSG and Barclays in NYC is that there is no parking lot or huge parking garage. People take the train or a combo of the bus or train to the games. Not to veer too far off topic but I wish more stadiums/arenas would have easy public transportation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motorin' Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 19 minutes ago, Limeaid said: Yes you win a mega-jackpot and donate it for the stadium. If I win the mega-jackpot I'd be very happy to donate the winnings to cover the cost of a dome, in return for 33% ownership of the Bills. Deal Terry? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted October 30, 2022 Share Posted October 30, 2022 14 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: One thing I like about MSG and Barclays in NYC is that there is no parking lot or huge parking garage. People take the train or a combo of the bus or train to the games. Not to veer too far off topic but I wish more stadiums/arenas would have easy public transportation. It's a nice feature of city life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.