Was it Allen or Daboll?

[GunnerBill]

38 minutes ago, damj said:

Originally, I thought it was all Allen and that he carried Daboll. Daboll before the Bills was mediocre, though he never had a QB. 

 

Perhaps Daboll is just an average OC, but great HC and Allen was destined for greatness regardless.

 

Allen is a great QB but Daboll was a good OC here who took way too much hate from a section of our fanbase. He did a very good job in Buffalo, deserved his shot as a HC and I am pleased for him to see it start so well. He is a good football coach. I guarantee Josh will be delighted for Dabes' success as well. 

15 hours ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

One of the smartest decisions  he has made so far was to let Kafka call the plays. Kafka has done a solid job and it's allowed Daboll to run the team instead of focusing on offense. That's why it's silly to me that teams focus on hiring these young offensive savants that may have great ideas on how to run an offense...but are terrible at running a team. Kingsbury comes to mind.

 

Agree. His big decisions on coordinators and play calling have been critical. That is a bottom 3rd of the NFL roster. They have had some breaks go their way, no doubt, but to be 6-1 with that team is a fair old achievement. 

[Bangarang]

Why does it have to be one or the other?

[78thealltimegreat]

Just leave this topic go it’s Allen franchise QBs always make the oc look like a genius. 

[Cheektowaga Chad]

I think it's more how daboll and staff decided to develop Allen

 

You are starting to see it with Daniel Jones too

 

How often is it that coaches try to make mobile qbs strictly pocket passers? Daboll seemed to embraced to mobility, the old saying of use the run game to open up the pass game

 

Allen was able to adapt when teams took away his run game and beat them with his arm, time will tell if Daniel Jones can do the same 

 

[billsbackto81]

13 hours ago, FireChans said:

What Dabs is doing in NY is more impressive than what he did in Buffalo lmao

With that roster, no doubt about it. He's currently COTY and it's not really debatable.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

Look, I like Daboll a lot. I think he's done well to take a relatively undertalented Giants team and get them to 6-1. He made the most of Tyrod in the last year here, and helped put together solid game plans to bring Allen along. I don't think Allen gets as good as he is today without someone being patient with him. We have seen Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold sent to the garbage heap for being pushed too fast and not supported.

 

He's not going to make Jones into a superstar. Josh Allen is doing just fine with Ken Dorsey.

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

Why does it have to be one or the other?

 

I think they made each other better. 

[GunnerBill]

36 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Look, I like Daboll a lot. I think he's done well to take a relatively undertalented Giants team and get them to 6-1. He made the most of Tyrod in the last year here, and helped put together solid game plans to bring Allen along. I don't think Allen gets as good as he is today without someone being patient with him. We have seen Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold sent to the garbage heap for being pushed too fast and not supported.

 

He's not going to make Jones into a superstar. Josh Allen is doing just fine with Ken Dorsey.

 

Daboll didn't coordinate Tyrod here. That was Dennison. And he definitely didn't "make the most of Tyrod". 

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Daboll didn't coordinate Tyrod here. That was Dennison. And he definitely didn't "make the most of Tyrod". 

 

 

That is for damn sure.   As discussed earlier in the week..........Dennison took the same OL/QB/TE/RB that lead the NFL in rushing and big plays and was the 7th highest scoring team in the NFL thru 16 weeks(prior to the tank week)........and he turned them into a unit that couldn't run the ball.   

 

Daboll wasn't particularly sharp his first year either.........they were challenging NFL all-time SB era lows in offensive production thru the first half of the 2018 season.......but he got it righted.

[FireChans]

46 minutes ago, WhitewalkerInPhilly said:

Look, I like Daboll a lot. I think he's done well to take a relatively undertalented Giants team and get them to 6-1. He made the most of Tyrod in the last year here, and helped put together solid game plans to bring Allen along. I don't think Allen gets as good as he is today without someone being patient with him. We have seen Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold sent to the garbage heap for being pushed too fast and not supported.

 

He's not going to make Jones into a superstar. Josh Allen is doing just fine with Ken Dorsey.

Daboll never worked with Tuh

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Daboll wasn't particularly sharp his first year either.........they were challenging NFL all-time SB era lows in offensive production thru the first half of the 2018 season.......but he got it righted.

 

That is because they basically asked Josh Allen to run the offense from day 1 and then they gave him Zay Jones and Kelvin Benjamin to do it with - remember Beane himself called his 2018 offense and particularly the oline "a horrible job" personnel wise. 

 

I know this is personal preference and there are people who prefer the limit the playbook and support with run game and bring on slowly approach but I am a "throw lots at your QB early" guy. It means taking some major lumps early and definitely harder to do if you don't have the 2017 credit in the bank as McDermott and Beane but it was the right approach for me. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by GunnerBill

[FireChans]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is because they basically asked Josh Allen to run the offense from day 1 and then they gave him Zay Jones and Kelvin Benjamin to do it with - remember Beane himself called his 2018 offense and particularly the oline "a horrible job" personnel wise. 

 

I know this is personnel preference and there are people who prefer the limit the playbook and support with run game and bring on slowly approach but I am a "throw lots at your QB early" guy. It means taking some major lumps early and definitely harder to do if you don't have the 2017 credit in the bank as McDermott and Beane but it was the right approach for me. 

You need to know if your QB is the guy. The Pats tried to save Mac from that relevation and they made the playoffs doing so but now they still have doubts and that’s the worst spot to be.

[BADOLBILZ]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That is because they basically asked Josh Allen to run the offense from day 1 and then they gave him Zay Jones and Kelvin Benjamin to do it with - remember Beane himself called his 2018 offense and particularly the oline "a horrible job" personnel wise. 

 

I know this is personnel preference and there are people who prefer the limit the playbook and support with run game and bring on slowly approach but I am a "throw lots at your QB early" guy. It means taking some major lumps early and definitely harder to do if you don't have the 2017 credit in the bank as McDermott and Beane but it was the right approach for me. 

 

 

Yeah and I made that defense/excuse at the time as well.........it was a very complicated system to throw Josh into and it was risky to go sink or swim with him.   Especially when Daboll had been so terrible at his prior NFL stops.   

 

At the same time,  when you just inherit a lot of talent sometimes it's hard to tell how good the OC is.  The Packers are finding that out with LaFleur now that they don't have an abundance of skill any longer.   I don't think Daboll impressed upon me that he was extraordinary and had it all figured out from the get-go,  he was also a work in progress and he left a lot of meat on the bone last year in particular.   I think he got a lot better with experience in Buffalo though.   Personally,   I prefer what we have seen from Dorsey so far.   I know Daboll set the table for him but I think they are better now even though they aren't as deep/efficient in the receiving corps.

[BigAl2526]

I think that when they joined the Bills, both Allen and Daboll were quality persons with untapped upside, though Daboll had developed as a coach far more than Allen as a young player.  Daboll had a key role in helping Allen develop, even as he honed his own skills as an offensive coordinator and future head coach.  I think Both are outstanding at what they do.  Ken Dorsey is about where Daboll was when he joined the Bills' staff.  Someday, he's going to get a head coaching gig of his own.  It doesn't have to be a question of "either/or."  In fact, in a quality organization like the Bills, it will often be "both."

[Bill Grundy]

Looked to me like Daboll. Sorted Allen’s feet out two years ago. But I could be wrong. 

[Alphadawg7]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Allen is a great QB but Daboll was a good OC here who took way too much hate from a section of our fanbase. He did a very good job in Buffalo, deserved his shot as a HC and I am pleased for him to see it start so well. He is a good football coach. I guarantee Josh will be delighted for Dabes' success as well. 

 

Agree. His big decisions on coordinators and play calling have been critical. That is a bottom 3rd of the NFL roster. They have had some breaks go their way, no doubt, but to be 6-1 with that team is a fair old achievement. 

 

So far, I would say he is a better HC than OC though.  I had a love hate relationship with Daboll.  I was fully aware he was a great OC for the most part...however, far too many times he would try and get too cute with bad play calls in critical moments.  Far too many times he would call plays like he had an allergy to run plays.  But overall, he was still amongst the better OC's in the league and is proving to be a great HC.  I actually had pretty high expectations for him in NY because he really is a players coach, a guy people want to play hard for.  And for me, that is one of the most important characteristics a HC can have because they either have it or they don't.

 

They have a squishy schedule, and there is a lot of parody of the first McD season here...a team winning more than expected in what is the beginning of a total tear down.  Daniel Jones is playing better, but I haven't seen enough yet to convince me that the new regime in NY feels confident in rebuilding around him.  I still think they will go get their guy at QB, at least as of today.  Maybe if DJ really starts to turn it on things might change, but they seem poised to lose Saquan this year, and Daniel Jones, even with his improvement thus far, can't carry that team IMHO.

 

Just like how we made the playoffs with Tyrod under McD, they knew it was just about breaking the streak than it was about Tyrod sticking around as the QB to build around.  

Edited October 24, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

So far, I would say he is a better HC than OC though.  I had a love hate relationship with Daboll.  I was fully aware he was a great OC for the most part...however, far too many times he would try and get too cute with bad play calls in critical moments.  Far too many times he would call plays like he had an allergy to run plays.  But overall, he was still amongst the better OC's in the league and is proving to be a great HC.  I actually had pretty high expectations for him in NY because he really is a players coach, a guy people want to play hard for.  And for me, that is one of the most important characteristics a HC can have because they either have it or they don't.

 

They have a squishy schedule, and there is a lot of parody of the first McD season here...a team winning more than expected in what is the beginning of a total tear down.  Daniel Jones is playing better, but I haven't seen enough yet to convince me that the new regime in NY feels confident in rebuilding around him.  I still think they will go get their guy at QB, at least as of today.  Maybe if DJ really starts to turn it on things might change, but they seem poised to lose Saquan this year, and Daniel Jones, even with his improvement thus far, can't carry that team IMHO.

 

Just like how we made the playoffs with Tyrod under McD, they knew it was just about breaking the streak than it was about Tyrod sticking around as the QB to build around.  

 

I agree with most of this.... but I think he was a better OC than you did. I think he took way too much criticism and for as many of his trick plays failed, he had ones that worked too - even in big spots. 

[Alphadawg7]

29 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree with most of this.... but I think he was a better OC than you did. I think he took way too much criticism and for as many of his trick plays failed, he had ones that worked too - even in big spots. 

 

And that creativity is why I still think he was amongst the better OC's.  But, the issue I had was when he would take away the strength of the team in key moments.

 

Just for an example...the Bucs game on 3rd and 2.  The fade to Diggs was so stupid.  Josh takes 1 step and floats a 50/50 ball instantly.  You just removed Davis, Knox, Cole, Devin, and most importantly Josh Allen and all he brings to the table with his legs too out of the play for a coin flip play from the 2 yard line.  Unbelievably stupid.  Talk about taking all the pressure off the defense in a spot right there.  

 

Why not spread the O out and put Josh in Shotgun and make the defense have to worry about Diggs, Davis, Knox, Beasley, Devin, and Josh's legs?  It was a critical moment and just a god awful play call regardless if it works or not.  Not with the team around Allen and the added dimension of Allen being able to run it in too.  Why anyone would want to take away Josh's ability to improvise and make plays with his legs down near the goal line is beyond me.  

 

For example, look at the 2 point conversion try we converted to go up by 3 against KC late in the playoff game.  Allens ability to keep that play alive is why we converted it.  So even if the play breaks down, Allen has so much talent he can still make the play.

 

Then there is the Titans game QB sneak trickery...also dumb how he called it.  Having Josh moving before the snap from shotgun back under center for a quick snap helped create the scenario where Josh didn't have his feet set and you can see his foot slip on the snap.  If you are going to run a power QB sneak, lineup and let your QB get his best footing for a push and ram it down their throat.  It may not still have worked, but it sure would have had a better chance of it working had Josh dug in and not slipped.

 

We probably still should have won the SB despite moments like this...so don't get me wrong, he had a lot of genius to him.  He was not the reason we were not a SB champion last year.  The blunder that started with our ST Coordinator not telling Bass the squib kick call was the domino that began to sink the ship.  Everything else after was on Frazier and the defense.  

Edited October 24, 2022 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

And that creativity is why I still think he was amongst the better OC's.  But, the issue I had was when he would take away the strength of the team in key moments.

 

Just for an example...the Titans game.  The fade to Diggs was so stupid.  Josh takes 1 step and floats a 50/50 ball instantly.  You just removed Davis, Knox, Cole, Devin, and most importantly Josh Allen and all he brings to the table with his legs too out of the play for a coin flip play from the 2 yard line.  Unbelievably stupid.  Talk about taking all the pressure off the defense in a spot right there.  

 

Why not spread the O out and put Josh in Shotgun and make the defense have to worry about Diggs, Davis, Knox, Beasley, Devin, and Josh's legs?  It was a critical moment and just a god awful play call regardless if it works or not.  Not with the team around Allen and the added dimension of Allen being able to run it in too.  Why anyone would want to take away Josh's ability to improvise and make plays with his legs down near the goal line is beyond me.  

 

For example, look at the 2 point conversion try we converted to go up by 3 against KC late in the playoff game.  Allens ability to keep that play alive is why we converted it.  So even if the play breaks down, Allen has so much talent he can still make the play.

 

He follows that up with some QB sneak trickery...also dumb how he called it.  Having Josh moving before the snap from shotgun back under center for a quick snap helped create the scenario where Josh didn't have his feet set and you can see his foot slip on the snap.  If you are going to run a power QB sneak, lineup and let your QB get his best footing for a push and ram it down their throat.  It may not still have worked, but it sure would have had a better chance of it working had Josh dug in and not slipped.

 

We probably still should have won the SB despite moments like this...so don't get me wrong, he had a lot of genius to him.  He was not the reason we were not a SB champion last year.  The blunder that started with our ST Coordinator not telling Bass the squib kick call was the domino that began to sink the ship.  Everything else after was on Frazier and the defense.  

 

Do you mean the Buccs not the Titans with the fade? Meh. I am not gonna criticise an OC for calling a play to our best playmaker in a game on the line spot. It should have been PI too.

[Alphadawg7]

10 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Do you mean the Buccs not the Titans with the fade? Meh. I am not gonna criticise an OC for calling a play to our best playmaker in a game on the line spot. It should have been PI too.

 

Yes sorry, you are right it was the bucs game.  I for some reason was thinking it was the Titans game.  But you are correct, the fade I am talking about was the Bucs game on 3rd and 2 and we had to take the FG and lost in OT.  

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Alphadawg7