Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes are worth infinite draft capital.

[Chaos]

12 hours ago, Southern_Bills said:

 

He may not be Allen or Mahomes but he's better than most. "Franchise QBs" like Wilson get traded, not Herbert.

Hanging on to Phillip Rivers worked out much better than trading Drew Brees did for the chargers. 

[ToGoGo]

2 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Of course I would never trade Allen. The Chiefs fans feel the exact same about Mahomes. For the purpose of this thread though, it’s much more interesting to discuss “what a package may look like for either?” There is no reason to have a thread saying “I wouldn’t trade Allen or Mahomes.” Of course no one would but let’s discuss the hypothetical.
 

In my opinion, the package would probably be something like: a young Pro Bowl player, a young mid-tier starter and 4-5 1sts. HYPOTHETICALLY, something like: Isaiah Simmons, Kyler Murray and 4 1sts. Alternatively you could go: Mooney, Fields and 5 1sts (one will obviously be super early). What about Chase, Burrow, 2-3 1sts? You could do Parsons, Dak and 2 1sts? Lastly, you could do something like Bosa, Herbert and 2-3 1sts.

 

Even those deals I would say no to unless Josh wanted out of Buffalo. 

 

In which case which one do you actually take? I'm thinking Burrow/Chase. 

[Don Otreply]

12 hours ago, Southern_Bills said:

 

He may not be Allen or Mahomes but he's better than most. "Franchise QBs" like Wilson get traded, not Herbert.

I think folk confuse good/above average starting QB with an actual franchise QB, the “franchise” term is a bit to loosely used. There are around five or so true franchise QBs in the league, jmo. 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

1 hour ago, Charles Romes said:

 
 

it’s possible Herbert is playing the long game and trying to play into his 40s like Brady. 

 

He can move around without being reckless like Allen. Mahomes isn't trucking and leaping defenders but he's still an A+ scrambler. Herbert took a nasty hit in the pocket to his ribs this year. Had he chosen to perhaps escape the pocket instead he may have avoided that injury.

[Lfod]

It's obvious to me that obtaining a star QB is hard enough that no team is going to trade one away and no team is going to want to pay the price that is why it never happens.

 

The Bills and Chiefs won the QB lotterty. The question I ask you is how many 1st round picks do you think it will take to get the next big name QB? 

 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

12 hours ago, Chaos said:

These guys are beyond the franchise QB level.  For example, I think the Chargers would trade Hebert for a four firsts and four seconds (and I don't think anyone would offer that). And he is clearly a franchise QB. 

the Browns would if Herbert was into massages….

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

2 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

Thinking that Herbert was not a leader and a winner is what led Miami to pick Tua ahead of him. That was a mistake. The guy actually is very competitive.

 

He doesn't seem to display vocal leadership qualities like you see in a Herbert or Allen. Based on my limited viewing of Chargers games. How important that is I don't know. He's kind of very much in the Eli Manning mold. But Eli has two rings despite a lack of regular season success. 

[Rock'em Sock'em]

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Look at the QBs he has worked worked with, who got better after he left?

 

Agree.  Pretty much every quarterback does well with Roman as an OC.  None have gotten better without him.

 

Roman as an OC:

2011-2012 49ers - Alex Smith - Great team record with Roman as OC, but not the best system for Alex.

2013-2014 49ers - Kaepernick - Never played better.

2015-2016 Bills - Taylor - Never played better.

2017-2018 Ravens - Flacco - Tail end of career.  Winning record both years.  Not a great system for Flacco.

2019-present Ravens - Jackson - Far exceeding expectations for his draft position.

 

Jackson and Roman is a partnership that should not be split up.  Jackson is going to be paid big by someone or else he will be tagged.  I love that he is betting on himself.  Great player.

[Big Turk]

14 hours ago, Chaos said:

Allen and Mahomes are not replaceable.  I can't imagine any package of draft picks (not even the next 10 years 1st and seconds) that would pry either off of their teams. Does anyone think anyone could anyone could acquire either for any package of draft picks? 

 

It's not even about all the stuff they do on field...it's about how they fit in the community, how they are perfect for their individual teams and cities, etc...

 

That's really really hard to replicate even if they somehow found a guy that had similar talent on field.

[Scott7975]

9 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree with that. I do agree with your earlier statement that he isn't a guy you can just sit in the pocket and win with. You have to get him on the move, you have to have tailored route combinations and you have to be multiple in your running game. 

 

But there are areas of improvement in Lamar's game. I think his patience is noticeably improved. There are plays he makes now that he would already have bailed on even in his MVP year. And he has improved his upper body throwing mechanics which is noticeably resulting in more velocity on his downfield throws. 

 

That isn't to say there don't remain limitations. He isn't a guy about whom it would be right to say "he can make all the throws" because he can't. He still struggles to throw consistently outside the numbers and the deep outs and corner routes remain almost non-existant. His actual bald numbers outside have improved but they are mainly short outside and are the result of the greater patience I mentioned above because he now works through progressions better and gets to check downs. But his limitations are why you can't just sit him in the pocket and throw 40 odd times a game because you don't have enough passing concepts in the playbook available to you.

 

Greg Roman is an underrated OC. He is one of the best in the league and he does a great job with Lamar tailoring the offense to his strengths and not tying him into a straightjacket. If for example Jackson were to be traded to one of the Shanahan stretch zone schemes - 49ers, Rams, Packers, Dolphins, Jets etc and asked to run that offense where the QB very much has to paint by numbers I think he would look pretty bad. Shanahan himself might make it work because he is the best offensive mind in football but the others who just have the playbook but not Kyle's brain would struggle massively I think. 

 

Greg Roman holding Lamar back is one of the most incorrect narratives that is out there in the current NFL landscape.

 

Ok I dont disagree with this really.  I just dont look at it as some great achievement for a QB 5 years later to be able to throw a 5-10 yard pass to the sidelines.  Statistically the guy hasnt changed. As much as he might improved in that area he has seriously declined in others.  His deepball has fallen off a cliff to below average and one of the worst in the league.  The seam pass that made defenses pay isnt there this year.

 

The numbers in case you disagree with that

 

Left 1/3 field 21.5 rating.  League avg 78.4

Middle 1/3 field 89.9 rating. League avg 86.2

Right 1/3 field 33.3 rating.  League avg 78.0

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Scott7975

[Nextmanup]

The whole idea of having "draft capital" in the NFL should be to use it as best you can in order to acquire someone like Mahomes or Allen.  That's the hypothetically ideal scenario.

 

And it's not a 2-way street.  You use draft capital to get a guy like that, if you can.

 

You don't liquidate a guy like that to get draft capital.

 

 

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

He doesn't seem to display vocal leadership qualities like you see in a Herbert or Allen. Based on my limited viewing of Chargers games. How important that is I don't know. He's kind of very much in the Eli Manning mold. But Eli has two rings despite a lack of regular season success. 

I think you meant to say Mahomes. I agree that Herbert is much less visibly animated than either Allen or Mahomes. That's probably what caused Miami to discount his competitive nature. But there are different ways to show leadership and the best cred is to do so by example, which all three of them do. I'm sure the guys in the huddle trust Herbert and believe in him. He is a great young player and it's important too to say that he appears to be a good person without character flaws, so no Jeff George or Cutler who may have had the skills but not the (leadership) personality. Eli was definitely toned down but he's a funny guy and no doubt his teammates knew him a lot better than any observers.

Regarding the question asked in this thread about trading a young superstar QB in his prime of course that is hypothetically possible imo. I say that believing that Allen's particular combination of physical skills, intelligence, psychological aptitudes and work ethic have perhaps never before been seen.  But every commodity (or player) has its price, its just that it's likely to be prohibitive. Like maybe four all pros in their prime at positions of need and a half dozen first round picks. A perennial bottom feeding team with few prospects for improvement in reasonable time frames despite having a guy like Allen could feel that their path to competitiveness might be shorter if they traded him away.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

13 minutes ago, starrymessenger said:

I think you meant to say Mahomes. I agree that Herbert is much less visibly animated than either Allen or Mahomes. That's probably what caused Miami to discount his competitive nature. But there are different ways to show leadership and the best cred is to do so by example, which all three of them do. I'm sure the guys in the huddle trust Herbert and believe in him. He is a great young player and it's important too to say that he appears to be a good person without character flaws, so no Jeff George or Cutler who may have had the skills but not the (leadership) personality. Eli was definitely toned down but he's a funny guy and no doubt his teammates knew him a lot better than any observers.

Regarding the question asked in this thread about trading a young superstar QB in his prime of course that is hypothetically possible imo. I say that believing that Allen's particular combination of physical skills, intelligence, psychological aptitudes and work ethic have perhaps never before been seen.  But every commodity (or player) has its price, its just that it's likely to be prohibitive. Like maybe four all pros in their prime at positions of need and a half dozen first round picks. A perennial bottom feeding team with few prospects for improvement in reasonable time frames despite having a guy like Allen could feel that their path to competitiveness might be shorter if they traded him away.

whoops. Yes, Mahomes and Allen.

[145B4IDIE]

Is Chaos still drunk?

[Southern_Bills]

4 hours ago, Chaos said:

Hanging on to Phillip Rivers worked out much better than trading Drew Brees did for the chargers. 

 

Well they had both of those guys in the building at the same time, completely different. Also, they didn't trade Brees, he was a FA and there was questions if his elbow would allow him to play at a high level again, which is the only reason Miami didn't sign him.

 

All that aside, put Sean Payton with Rivers and see what happens. Brees was great but he went to a great coach as well.

[DCofNC]

4 hours ago, Rock'em Sock'em said:

 

Agree.  Pretty much every quarterback does well with Roman as an OC.  None have gotten better without him.

 

Roman as an OC:

2011-2012 49ers - Alex Smith - Great team record with Roman as OC, but not the best system for Alex.

2013-2014 49ers - Kaepernick - Never played better.

2015-2016 Bills - Taylor - Never played better.

2017-2018 Ravens - Flacco - Tail end of career.  Winning record both years.  Not a great system for Flacco.

2019-present Ravens - Jackson - Far exceeding expectations for his draft position.

 

Jackson and Roman is a partnership that should not be split up.  Jackson is going to be paid big by someone or else he will be tagged.  I love that he is betting on himself.  Great player.

You took the time to write it out and I think you hit it on the head.  I don’t think it was necessarily a bad fit for Alex Smith, but Kaep’s legs made it more dynamic.   Flacco definitely did not fit the O, no question.  Jackson has absolutely killed it, he’s basically the perfect fit for what Roman wants to do.