Chip the balls?

[since79]

Don't know how accurate they are, an invisible dog fence idea.  The wire is imbedded in the line, it sends a signal when it is crossed.  Better yet put the shock collar on the referee.  They will get every call right everytime.

[BillsFanMike]

NFL needs that human error. You know because Vegas.🤑

[Simon Says]

1 hour ago, The Red King said:

 

Maybe to the first part.  But you don't see a problem?  "Yes, the ball is in his arm and most likely broke the plain, but it's hard to tell since we do need to see it.  Now, let's hold the game up 5-10 mins. while we watch 200 clips to see if we get an angle that tells us for sure."

 

Yeah, certainly not a problem that exists.

 

For those of you that say the tech isn't precise enough, okay, good to know.  Thanks for telling me.  Was a random thought, suppose it won't work.  Ah well.

Im no engineer. But, what if there were some sort of sensor/target in the ball...with a laser "tracking system " rather than chips in the ball that send a signal. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Just Jack said:

Won't work to the accuracy you want.  I work with locating systems and you would only get an area the football is in, not exactly down to the inch where it is.  Video reviews are still the way to go. 

 

OK, so here's a question.  Why wouldn't the Hawk Eye system they use in Tennis work?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Eye

 

It's used in Gaelic football and Austrailan football in addition to association football.

 

One might need different cameras than just the ones up in the roof they use for tennis but....

 

36 minutes ago, since79 said:

Don't know how accurate they are, an invisible dog fence idea.  The wire is imbedded in the line, it sends a signal when it is crossed.  Better yet put the shock collar on the referee.  They will get every call right everytime.

 

I laughed until the dog got worried about me at this.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Beck Water

[boyst]

I've thought the NFL said they already put chips in the balls and still developing the technology. 

[Dablitzkrieg]

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

[Beck Water]

10 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

I've thought the NFL said they already put chips in the balls and still developing the technology. 

 

I think they've been trying various chip systems but so far nothing good enough.

 

Part of the complication with chipping the ball has to be the current system of handling balls for the game, right?  As I understand it, each team's QB tries out footballs before the game, and chooses the ones he wants.  They get marked with the game they were used in, and used up to 3 (?) games.

 

So there would have to be a large number of chipped balls supplied by each team, and a system of testing their function impartially before each game.

 

I can't find it, but back in 2020 the Bills did a series of "Trust the ________ " short Feature Videos on various behind-the-scenes efforts of the equipment guys and trainers.  They had one with Nate Breske explaining the proximity tracker systems, one explaining the process of setting up the pads and jerseys before the game (Stefon Diggs and a couple others like their gameday jerseys so tight it takes 3 staff to suit them up), and one showing Josh selecting the balls for the game and explaining a bit about what makes a ball "no" for him.

 

Edited October 13, 2022 by Beck Water

[WotAGuy]

Just paint the ball bright orange.  Problem solved. 

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, The Red King said:

Was a rogue thought I had, given today's tech.  Why not add a chip to the inside of both tips of the football?  Using GPS positioning, you would know exactly where the ball is.

 

Challenging a bad spot?  Correct spot identified immediately.  Did the ball cross the plain, but you can't see it well enough to know?  You rule it a TD, and the automatic review will know immediately if any molocule of that ball broke the plain for even a split-second, and again would be known instantly.  Was the ball past the LOS when it was thrown?  Did the onside kick go ten yards?  Would make the game far more accurate, and vastly speed up a number of challenges.

 

Really think you are missing the issue.

 

1st as has been stated in the other threads on this topic - you will not get the accuracy you are talking about.  The chip will give you an idea, but not anything closer than the current video evidence.  Even when you can see the ball - the chip just gives an area - so it would not work for LOS/TD/1st downs.

 

2nd - even if they begin to narrow down the accuracy - you still need to have proof of the player is he down and where exactly is he down and therefore you would need to sync to the Millisecond the tracking of the chip to the video and that is more difficult and time consuming than the current process and still doesn’t help in all scenarios.

 

3rd - what if the ball is not going straight ahead - the 2 ends are going across the field as the player dives.  Video evidence shows the laces appearing to cross the plain, but the tracking shows it short.  Now you have created a mismatch and what would happen if the ball was hidden or you can’t see down.

 

The reality is - the technology is not advanced enough at this point to be a huge help and I doubt until they redo the fields with sensors perfectly spaced that could provide the required accuracy - this is a non functional solution looking for a question.

 

Currently - I believe the balls already have sensors in them - so they can be used for advanced metrics like speed of throw and other AWS metrics that the league uses - it just has to get mirrored to the video to provide the data.

 

 

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

So how do they do it in soccer? Is it a laser type system?

 

Why not employ that at least at the goal line, and then put the chip in the ball.  We could forever end debate about "crossing the plane of the goal line".

 

 

 

It is rarely an issue of did it cross the plain.  It is an issue of where was it when the player was down - which means not only video getting synced, but then syncing the sensors down to the millisecond as you review the film.  
 

it would still not end the debate - it might change it, but it would not end it.

 

 

[Just Jack]

28 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, so here's a question.  Why wouldn't the Hawk Eye system they use in Tennis work?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Eye

 

It's used in Gaelic football and Austrailan football in addition to association football.

 

One might need different cameras than just the ones up in the roof they use for tennis but....

 

Number of players.  We see it all the time, teams are on the 1 yard line, so they hand off to a running back or QB sneak, and you have a mass of players converging on the ball.  

[Rochesterfan]

32 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

OK, so here's a question.  Why wouldn't the Hawk Eye system they use in Tennis work?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawk-Eye

 

It's used in Gaelic football and Austrailan football in addition to association football.

 

One might need different cameras than just the ones up in the roof they use for tennis but....

 

 

I laughed until the dog got worried about me at this.

 

You would still need 100% visibility of the ball for the system to work.  If the systems can not see the ball from all angles - how can it accurately determine the position?

 

 

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

So how do they do it in soccer? Is it a laser type system?

 

Why not employ that at least at the goal line, and then put the chip in the ball.  We could forever end debate about "crossing the plane of the goal line".

 

 

The ball crossing the plane is rarely the issue.  The question of when was the runner's knee, or elbow, or butt down and was he touched while that occurred is a major part of the equation.

 

When the field becomes a giant touch screen or something out of Tron we will have the perfect solution.

[Matt_In_NH]

Sounds painful

[Jauronimo]

1 minute ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Sounds painful

Yes, but worth every penny if your balls are migratory with the seasons.  

[Beck Water]

16 minutes ago, Just Jack said:

 

Number of players.  We see it all the time, teams are on the 1 yard line, so they hand off to a running back or QB sneak, and you have a mass of players converging on the ball.  

 

Well....Gaelic football has 13 or 15 players per side on the field (26 or 30).

Australian rules has 18, so 36

 

I dunno how they use it for those sports, but if they're using it for those sports, they must have sorted that mass problem somehow

 

 

5 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

The ball crossing the plane is rarely the issue.  The question of when was the runner's knee, or elbow, or butt down and was he touched while that occurred is a major part of the equation.

 

Good point that the position of the ball is often not the contentious issue.

[Billy Claude]

14 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Well....Gaelic football has 13 or 15 players per side on the field (26 or 30).

Australian rules has 18, so 36

 

I dunno how they use it for those sports, but if they're using it for those sports, they must have sorted that mass problem somehow

 

 

 

Good point that the position of the ball is often not the contentious issue.

 

In Gaelic football it is only used to decide if a point is scored, that is if a ball crosses above the crossbar and between the goalposts.  It would be similar to deciding whether a field goal is good or not.

 

[Captain Caveman]

2 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

It will come in time.   As will unitards instead of two piece uni's.   It's gonna' be gross.

 

 

 

At that point I may switch allegiance to the Giants

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

My mind immediately went to my favorite place:

 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

3 hours ago, The Red King said:

Was a rogue thought I had, given today's tech.  Why not add a chip to the inside of both tips of the football?  Using GPS positioning, you would know exactly where the ball is.

 

Challenging a bad spot?  Correct spot identified immediately.  Did the ball cross the plain, but you can't see it well enough to know?  You rule it a TD, and the automatic review will know immediately if any molocule of that ball broke the plain for even a split-second, and again would be known instantly.  Was the ball past the LOS when it was thrown?  Did the onside kick go ten yards?  Would make the game far more accurate, and vastly speed up a number of challenges.

 

This has always been one of my pet peeves. They bring the chains out and measure within one chain link of the chain as to whether a 1st down or not.  But when they first set the down markers to start with, who's to say they were exactly lined up within one chain link.  Likely in many cases they may be  going 9.4 yards for a 1st down, another time it's 10.3 yards!

 

But as others have stated, I doubt you'd get a GPS system accurate within one inch.  Better thing may be some type of laser system on both sides of the field and a target of some sorts on the surface of the ball.