Stefon Diggs is better than Cooper Kupp

[John from Riverside]

I’m just here for the Memes

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

OK, so 12%.  Thanks for that info.  Do you know what was his production was on those 23 targets?

 

 

Haven't managed to find that anywhere. 

[Kaenon]

Last 3 seasons:

 

Player 1

331 REC for 4,082 yards and 29 TDs

 

Player 2

293 REC for 3,890 yards and 24 TDs

 

Pretty comparable.

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, BigDingus said:

He could be, but he may not have more success tonight (don't hate me 😅)

 

Diggs is going up against Ramsey, while Cupp is going up against Dane Jackson (7th round pick in 2020) & a rookie 1st rounder in Elam.

 

Or maybe our 6th round rookie Benford Will be paired up against him on occasion... Either way it's a lot of green, young players being asked to go up against the #1 WR in the league last year & a top 10 player in the league (according to players).

 

According to GMF, when matched up together, Ramsey held Diggs to 2 receptions for 9 yards on 4 targets the last 2 games they went at it (I didn't check to verify though).

 

So Diggs may be "better" in terms of talent, but Cupp is in the better position to put up numbers.

 

 

 

Kupp principally lines up in the slot.

 

He is expected to line up against Taron Johnson, our nickel or "slot" corner, who is ranked as one of the top 5 slot corners in the league.  If Kupp goes deep, he'll be handed off to whoever is responsible for the next "zone" in the Bills predominantly zone D.

 

The Bills do play man, but the chances that they'll put Dane Jackson alone in man on Kupp are pretty small.

 

--------------------------------------

I don't understand stuff like "when matched up together" stuff.  The Bills have only played the Vikings once since Diggs became a Bill, in 2020.

So they're basically looking at 2 games played 5 years apart, when both players were on different teams in different systems, and then looking at a portion of that game when they decided that Ramsey was covering Diggs in man, not even the whole game.

 

In 2020, how the Rams covered Diggs was moderately successful, as Diggs had 4 receptions on 6 targets for 49 yds and 1 TD.   That's not a huge game, especially for Diggs in 2020, but it's not exactly a shutout, either.  By contrast, Beasley killed them for 100 yds and Davis "ate" for 81, so it's fair to say that the Rams probably focused on taking Diggs away and at times, maybe Ramsey was covering someone else who got receptions.

 

It's not 2 receptions for 9 yards for Diggs on the game.

 

If you go back further than that, then you're talking Diggs in a different system with a different QB in Minnesota and Ramsey in a different system with a different DC in Jacksonville.  And Diggs caught 3 passes on 5 targets for 55 yds that day, so again, it's not a great day -

 

But it's not 2 receptions for 9 yards on the game either.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

12 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

 

 

Diggs has fewer plays designed to get HIM open quickly as a product of bunches and picks and motions and et cetera. Diggs plays a more traditional X role more often than Kupp does. Right on the line, out wide, releasing and running routes. Working against presses and brackets and doubles and buzzes and et cetera. 

 

Kupp gets a lot of defensive attention, no doubt, but there's more scheming designed to disrupt that attention and get him the ball nonetheless. Methinks the Bills have sought to play it slightly more "straight-up" so that extra attention paid to Diggs opens up other favorable matchups. Or, conversely, a lack of extra coverage attention means Diggs sees the ball, a lot. In theory.

 

So in another thread, there were some tweets linked where this guy who is evidently a DB coach dissected some Rams offensive plays.  I think the opposing teams were SF, GB, and SEA.

 

And Kupp made them look baaaaaaaadddddd. It was surgical how McVay's offense allowed them to smoothly dissect the opponent's zone, and Kupp was ridiculously open with ridiculous room to run.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Beck Water

[Jay_Fixit]

I miss real Bills fans.

[Beck Water]

On 9/7/2022 at 8:59 AM, nucci said:

and Diggs isn't helped by Allen and Bills system?

 

Not to the same degree, no.  They're really playing very different roles as WR.

 

Diggs has succeeded in two very different offensive systems. 

In the Bills system, he primarily lines up outside, where he draws the lion's share of the coverage.  A lot of his receptions come on "secondary route concepts" or "scramble drills" which depend more upon the WR's "mind meld" with the QB and ability to exploit the coverage he sees in real time.  Josh throws him a fair number of "my ball, or no one's ball" completions into tight coverage.  This is reflected in his YAC, which are puny.  8.7 YBC, 3.2 YAC similar the year before.

 

Kupp primarily (Edit: just read 88% of the time) lines up in the slot.  A lot of his success depends on play designs which exploit the gaps in the zone, as well as his ability to juke a slot corner out of his cleats or outrun him when covered in man.

 

That said, once he gets the ball in his hands, Kupp's success depends upon his extraordinary RAC abilities. In 2 of Kupp's 4 years in the league, he's had more YAC than YBC.  2021, 7.6 YBC 5.8 YAC.   Partly this is the result of play design that leaves him so wide open it's embarrassing, but it also depends upon undeniable skill from Kupp - "body control" and a keen awareness of the play picture. 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Beck Water

[Wyobills89]

Didnt Diggs catch a TD against Ramsey last year in the red zone. Totally schooled him. 

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, Wyobills89 said:

Didnt Diggs catch a TD against Ramsey last year in the red zone. Totally schooled him. 

 

Yes.  Well, it was 2020, not last year as we didn't play the Rams last year.  But yes, yes he did.

https://www.nfl.com/videos/stefon-diggs-beats-jalen-ramsey-for-td-in-back-of-the-end-zone

 

[billsrul120]

12 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

I love Diggs! I think he helped propel JA into elite status in the NFL.

 

BUT......

Diggs in the playoffs was 3 rec/ 60 yds, 0 TDs against the Pats and 3 rec /7 yds 0 TDs against KC

 

Kupp in the playoffs was 5 rec/ 61 yds 1TD against Arizona, 9 rec/ 183 yds 1 TD against TB, 11 rec/142 and 2 TDs against SF and 8 rec / 92 yards 2 TDs against Cinn in the SB.

 

Now as I said I'm a big Diggs fan and we could compare the body of work over their careers, but if we go by last years playoffs and if this were an actual debate I would literally destroy you to the point you would walk out the room in tears.

I don't have much of an opinion about whether Diggs or Kupp is better but in the interest of having a real debate and bringing people to tears:

The Bills scored an 47 and 36 points in 2 postseason games

 

The Rams scored 34, 30, 20, 17

 

So whatever Diggs was bringing to the table was clearly helping the Bills more than Kupp was helping the Rams.  If Diggs wasn't being targeted much it was because teams sold out to stop him and all costs and Bills offense was prolific.  So from a team scoring standpoint Diggs had a huge effect. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, billsrul120 said:

I don't have much of an opinion about whether Diggs or Kupp is better but in the interest of having a real debate and bringing people to tears:

The Bills scored an 47 and 36 points in 2 postseason games

 

The Rams scored 34, 30, 20, 17

 

So whatever Diggs was bringing to the table was clearly helping the Bills more than Kupp was helping the Rams.  If Diggs wasn't being targeted much it was because teams sold out to stop him and all costs and Bills offense was prolific.  So from a team scoring standpoint Diggs had a huge effect. 

I think maybe this thread has run its course?
Having said that, I’m hoping that after tonight it’s back in full force, Diggs having proven the point. 

[GunnerBill]

4 hours ago, Wyobills89 said:

Didnt Diggs catch a TD against Ramsey last year in the red zone. Totally schooled him. 

 

Two years ago.

[The Frankish Reich]

Update, early returns (3:00 left, 2nd quarter) strongly suggest that No, Diggs is not better than Kupp. 

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Update, early returns (3:00 left, 2nd quarter) strongly suggest that No, Diggs is not better than Kupp. 

They have jalen Ramsey to cover diggs

 

and on que

Edited September 9, 2022 by Buffalo716

[TBBills]

Diggs owns Ramsey

2 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Update, early returns (3:00 left, 2nd quarter) strongly suggest that No, Diggs is not better than Kupp. 

Kupp against rookie and safeties, Diggs against Ramsey and making him look silly.

[The Frankish Reich]

15 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

They have jalen Ramsey to cover diggs

 

and on que

I did say “not better than Kupp.” I think we’re seeing they’re two of the best. 

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

I did say “not better than Kupp.” I think we’re seeing they’re two of the best. 

I don’t think Kupp could operate on the outside like Diggs

 

Diggs would also excel in the slot 

 

I think Diggs is more versatile … Kupp is a slot nightmare … Even when he’s by himself he’s usually in line closer

[BigDingus]

10 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Kupp principally lines up in the slot.

 

He is expected to line up against Taron Johnson, our nickel or "slot" corner, who is ranked as one of the top 5 slot corners in the league.  If Kupp goes deep, he'll be handed off to whoever is responsible for the next "zone" in the Bills predominantly zone D.

 

The Bills do play man, but the chances that they'll put Dane Jackson alone in man on Kupp are pretty small.

 

--------------------------------------

I don't understand stuff like "when matched up together" stuff.  The Bills have only played the Vikings once since Diggs became a Bill, in 2020.

So they're basically looking at 2 games played 5 years apart, when both players were on different teams in different systems, and then looking at a portion of that game when they decided that Ramsey was covering Diggs in man, not even the whole game.

 

In 2020, how the Rams covered Diggs was moderately successful, as Diggs had 4 receptions on 6 targets for 49 yds and 1 TD.   That's not a huge game, especially for Diggs in 2020, but it's not exactly a shutout, either.  By contrast, Beasley killed them for 100 yds and Davis "ate" for 81, so it's fair to say that the Rams probably focused on taking Diggs away and at times, maybe Ramsey was covering someone else who got receptions.

 

It's not 2 receptions for 9 yards for Diggs on the game.

 

If you go back further than that, then you're talking Diggs in a different system with a different QB in Minnesota and Ramsey in a different system with a different DC in Jacksonville.  And Diggs caught 3 passes on 5 targets for 55 yds that day, so again, it's not a great day -

 

But it's not 2 receptions for 9 yards on the game either.

 

 

 

I honestly didn't know how accurate the Diggs stats against Ramsey were, just sharing what they said on GMF.

 

However, we've already see Kupp lined up against our 6th & 7th round corners today, beating them consistently (along with Johnson & our safeties).

 

It's pretty clear so far that my prediction about him having a good performance against our DBs was accurate. 

 

8 receptions on 9 targets for 56 yards & 1 TD. Diggs has been good too though, 6 receptions on 6 targets for 62 yards.

[YoloinOhio]

I had diggs hot sauce tonight and I guarantee it kicks kupp’s ass

Diggs has 69 yards. Nice.

[Doc]

42 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

I honestly didn't know how accurate the Diggs stats against Ramsey were, just sharing what they said on GMF.

 

However, we've already see Kupp lined up against our 6th & 7th round corners today, beating them consistently (along with Johnson & our safeties).

 

It's pretty clear so far that my prediction about him having a good performance against our DBs was accurate. 

 

8 receptions on 9 targets for 56 yards & 1 TD. Diggs has been good too though, 6 receptions on 6 targets for 62 yards.

 

Yeah but Kupp against rookies and safeties and Diggs against All-Pro Ramsey.  A little difference there.