Beck Water Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 35 minutes ago, muppy said: SMH wow. As...My...Stomach....Turns. Welcome to life on the modern college campus 35 minutes ago, muppy said: I have a question. Have any DNA results been released? No 35 minutes ago, muppy said: But even if they have the fact his ***** may be present, so would it be for the other suspects you would think . I don't think DNA will solve this case. Correct, although the rape kit will go beyond DNA to document other physical evidence. But you're identifying one reason why there is a backlog of rape kits - in many cases, there isn't dispute that sexual acts took place and DNA will be present, the question is one of consent or force which DNA doesn't address. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Beck Water said: I have a daughter Araiza's age and friends with college age kids on different campuses, so I'm well aware of modern college life and what goes on. And you know what? A damned lot of kids on college campuses these days are in fact, basically decent people who take some moral responsibility for their fellow human beings, and would help the girl find her friends or call for a ride home. ( No, especially if he were drinking as well, he should not have driven her home.) If that were not true, frankly, the estimates for the prevalence of sexual assault on campus would be higher than 16.5% or 20%. And there are studies which imply that the majority of problems may in fact be caused by a relatively small number of sexual predators who are enabled by the current culture of binge drinking and hookups and people like yourself, who normalize an "I Am Not My Brother's Keeper" attitude. The moral bankruptcy of those who "take no responsibility, legal OR OTHERWISE" for a fellow human being isn't changed because some people are bad actors. I'll shut up now. We'll agree to disagree on whether a guy who has a casual hookup with a girl is suddenly responsible for her for the rest of her night. What I will agree with is that if more people did what they should, and didn't do what they shouldn't be doing, it would be a much better place. Edited September 1, 2022 by Doc 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Doc said: If that's really her and that's the night/place it happened, that's an exculpatory video for Araiza as far as the statutory rape claim is concerned (and I'm sure the DA has seen it). Although you don't need any evidence to know she's lying when she claims that a) she was at a college party and admitted she was 17 (no one has ever done this) and b) that she was too drunk to give consent (since she's admitted to having non-forced sex with him so she obviously remembers it). But for good measure, Araiza's attorney has people lined-up to testify to that effect and probably has this and maybe even more video of the night in question. I hope he releases it all. I'm going back on my word, because in the spirit of maintaining civil discourse I think it's important to document points of agreement. And I fundamentally agree with you here. Although I'll point out that being able to give consent at one point in the evening doesn't mean she wasn't too drunk to give consent at a later point, and that one can be mentally able to remember drunk activities without being mentally able to give consent during them. But that's a problematic blurred line. 1 hour ago, Doc said: It's also hard to believe Araiza would have already had her alone outside and then gone back inside for 2nds in a gang rape. But while I'm certain she's lying about Araiza WRT the first encounter, against my better judgment I'm inclined to believe her about being gang raped, but not that he was involved. However after seeing that video... This will probably surprise you, being I have no idea what goes on in college these days and all, but I don't find it hard to believe. There have been cases where, for want of a better word, guys would "pander" for their teammates or frat bros. One guy would find a tipsy, DTF-type girl, maybe one who's already had some kind of hookup, give her a spiked drink, and basically take her to a room where she'd be sexually assaulted. The sexual assault is real, but it's problematic for both college administrators and for LEO to deal with because of social attitudes that if a girl is bragging about her "body count" and DTF with one guy at 1 am, she's probably DTF with 4 guys at 2 am (or at best, that it's a challenge to prove otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt) The horrific Vanderbilt rape case is another example of this behavior, that was cracked only because of video evidence. In one situation, it led to a police "sting" where they tested the punch bowl for date rape drugs at a frat party and whatcha know, they found them (this was at Brown University btw). In another, it led to some students spray painting "Rapists Live Here" across the front of a frat house because this sort of thing was known to the students to be happening and the university wasn't taking action. 22 minutes ago, Doc said: We'll agree to disagree on whether a guy who has a casual hookup with a girl is suddenly responsible for her for the rest of her night. What I will agree with is that if more people did what they should, and didn't do what they shouldn't be doing, it would be a much better place. This actually heartens me, because it's good to find points of agreement. I'll also add that I'm impatient with the whole "No means No, but women should be able to dress and behave exactly as they choose otherwise" attitude some folks take, because it ignores the problem that the whole hookup/binge drinking culture creates situations where consent is inherently problematic to determine even for people of good will who are trying to be decent. Edited September 1, 2022 by Beck Water 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 13 minutes ago, Beck Water said: I'm going back on my word, because in the spirit of maintaining civil discourse I think it's important to document points of agreement. And I fundamentally agree with you here. Although I'll point out that being able to give consent at one point in the evening doesn't mean she wasn't too drunk to give consent at a later point, and that one can be mentally able to remember drunk activities without being mentally able to give consent during them. But that's a problematic blurred line. This will probably surprise you, being I have no idea what goes on in college these days and all, but I don't find it hard to believe. There have been cases where, for want of a better word, guys would "pander" for their teammates or frat bros. One guy would find a tipsy, DTF-type girl, maybe one who's already had some kind of hookup, give her a spiked drink, and basically take her to a room where she'd be sexually assaulted. The sexual assault is real, but it's problematic for both college administrators and for LEO to deal with because of social attitudes that if a girl is bragging about her "body count" and DTF with one guy at 1 am, she's probably DTF with 4 guys at 2 am. The horrific Vanderbilt rape case is another example of this, that was cracked only because of video evidence. In one situation, it led to a police "sting" where they tested the punch bowl for date rape drugs at a frat party and whatcha know, they found them (this was at Brown University btw). In another, it led to some students spray painting "Rapists Live Here" across the front of a frat house because this sort of thing was known to the students to be happening and the university wasn't taking action. This actually heartens me, because it's good to find points of agreement. I'll also add that I'm impatient with the whole "No means No, but women should be able to dress and behave exactly as they choose otherwise" attitude some folks take, because it ignores the problem that the whole hookup/binge drinking culture creates situations where consent is inherently problematic to determine even for people of good will who are trying to be decent. I try to see things from different perspectives. I had a suspicion, and I realize now, you're approaching it from your daughter's angle, while as I've said, I'm approaching it from my sons' angles. I have used this specific case as a close-to-home example for my sons (we're all Bills fans) on what and what not to do at a college party. But that can only go so far, as, for example, you've said that he should have ensured she was safe until she got him, which just isn't realistic IMHO. As for not being able to give consent, there has to be a line somewhere between stone cold sober and passed-out/going in-and-out of consciousness, and remembering giving consent is a fair line, in the absence of measuring someone's brain waves. Never mind that Araiza is a good-looking guy (my wife thinks he's hot) who probably has no trouble getting girls, making it a case of "of course she would have given consent even if stone cold sober." So taken with her saying she was 18, or at least not telling anyone she was 17 (and again, no one believes she told anyone she was 17), statutory rape gets thrown out the window. And again is why no charges have been filed despite over 10 months since the incident and over a week since the civil suit. And sure, it's possible Araiza drugged her and tossed her to her teammates, if not participated. But that needs to be proven. And I doubt they can, again given the lack of charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 I imagine if we as a society put in a sliver as much effort to trying to solve sexual assault cases as some people do in trying to find any possible way to discredit a rape victim, there probably wouldn't be 100s of thousands of unprocessed rape kits in this country and thousands->millions of sexual predators walking around our streets. It's a shame we have no control over that. A damn shame. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 12 minutes ago, Doc said: But that can only go so far, as, for example, you've said that he should have ensured she was safe until she got him, which just isn't realistic IMHO. 'scuse Doc. But you're putting words in my mouth here; never said that. If you go back and look, I think you'll see that's actually how you interpreted what I said, and what you said I said. There's a lot to unpack and a lot I could say about the next bit you wrote, but I'm going to try to back off here. I'll say: please don't conflate "my wife thinks he's hot" with "any girl would consent to him" (a No for many reasons). Don't mistake "he could get any girl he wants to consent" for "therefore why would he rape?" That's been long disproven. Sometimes it's about liking that lack of consent and the sense of power and control and aggression. That's why "you sick *****!" was an appropriate chant at...never mind. 18 minutes ago, Doc said: And sure, it's possible Araiza drugged her and tossed her to her teammates, if not participated. But that needs to be proven. And I doubt they can, again given the lack of charges. Dunno. Maybe, maybe not. DA still considering charges. But keep in mind that lack of charges by a DA who cares about conviction %, doesn't mean "no evidence" either. It means they don't feel they could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. I will say this: if the plaintiff and her attorney don't have some solid evidence of the drugging/gang rape accusations laid down in the lawsuit, he's one amoral disreputable piece of scum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Jack Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 37 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said: I imagine if we as a society put in a sliver as much effort to trying to solve sexual assault cases as some people do in trying to find any possible way to discredit a rape victim, there probably wouldn't be 100s of thousands of unprocessed rape kits in this country and thousands->millions of sexual predators walking around our streets. It's a shame we have no control over that. A damn shame. It would be interesting to go through the Watson thread and this thread, and compare what people said in each case. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 9 minutes ago, Beck Water said: There's a lot to unpack and a lot I could say about the next bit you wrote, but I'm going to try to back off here. I'll say: please don't conflate "my wife thinks he's hot" with "any girl would consent to him" (a No for many reasons). Don't mistake "he could get any girl he wants to consent" for "therefore why would he rape?" That's been long disproven. Sometimes it's about liking that lack of consent and the sense of power and control and aggression. That's why "you sick *****!" was an appropriate chant at...never mind. No, not "why would he rape," "why would her giving consent be so unbelievable?" Casual hookups at parties aren't about deep meaningful connections: they're about physical attraction. I'm not saying that it was the main thing, just another thing that makes her being unable/not wanting to give consent unlikely. 9 minutes ago, Beck Water said: Dunno. Maybe, maybe not. DA still considering charges. But keep in mind that lack of charges by a DA who cares about conviction %, doesn't mean "no evidence" either. It means they don't feel they could prove it beyond a reasonable doubt. I will say this: if the plaintiff and her attorney don't have some solid evidence of the drugging/gang rape accusations laid down in the lawsuit, he's one amoral disreputable piece of scum. I'll bet that the DA is not going to file charges against Araiza and is only saying that to buy him more time for this to get out of the nation spotlight and then no one will remember that he never ended-up filing charges against him. The other guys, who knows? But as I said, I want to see the evidence they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Just Jack said: It would be interesting to go through the Watson thread and this thread, and compare what people said in each case. Oh for sure. I'm sure you find some interesting takes in PPP too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unbillievable Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 That must have been one-hellofa-drunk-filled-***** if no one, not Araiza nor the victim, remembers anything that happened that night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extrahammer Posted September 1, 2022 Share Posted September 1, 2022 1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said: Oh for sure. I'm sure you find some interesting takes in PPP too. There's differences, Watson wasn't accused of "gang r*pe" but he had over 20 accusers. Araiza has one accuser and the publicly available facts absolve him from it when you review them. Where are his other accusers? A predator doesn't just prey on one person. The media jumped the gun on him. I don't think he will be charged. The facts are in his favor. I still believe she was r*ped. But Matt wasn't there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BullBuchanan Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 5 minutes ago, extrahammer said: There's differences, Watson wasn't accused of "gang r*pe" but he had over 20 accusers. Araiza has one accuser and the publicly available facts absolve him from it when you review them. Where are his other accusers? A predator doesn't just prey on one person. The media jumped the gun on him. I don't think he will be charged. The facts are in his favor. I still believe she was r*ped. But Matt wasn't there. Everything that could be wrong with a statement on sexual assault is in your statement. He's really absolved of nothing except that it's possible he didn't know she was underage. It's still possible that he knew, as well as it's possible that he's guilty of everything else on top of it. Unfortunately your statements are pretty common in the way people approach these incidents and It's probably why there's so little prevention and so little justice. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 12 hours ago, Beck Water said: Welcome to life on the modern college campus Well, to life on the crappy party school campus at least. I am sooo happy that these dedicated students will have at least $10,000 of their loans forgiven. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 4 hours ago, BullBuchanan said: Everything that could be wrong with a statement on sexual assault is in your statement. He's really absolved of nothing except that it's possible he didn't know she was underage. It's still possible that he knew, as well as it's possible that he's guilty of everything else on top of it. Unfortunately your statements are pretty common in the way people approach these incidents and It's probably why there's so little prevention and so little justice. Spot on. How the hell does anyone on this website know - or even think - that Araiza had consensual sex with the girl, then she was gang raped - BUT - Araiza wasn't there? It's bias. Bias based on football fandom. You replace Matt Araiza's name with Tom Brady and I would bet my house that the TBD:SVU Team would find evidence that he was guilty of everything. This fanbase makes me sick sometimes. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 4 hours ago, Gugny said: Spot on. How the hell does anyone on this website know - or even think - that Araiza had consensual sex with the girl, then she was gang raped - BUT - Araiza wasn't there? It's bias. Bias based on football fandom. You replace Matt Araiza's name with Tom Brady and I would bet my house that the TBD:SVU Team would find evidence that he was guilty of everything. This fanbase makes me sick sometimes. Brady was involved?? This is why he took that hiatus, isn't it?! And Gisele is reportedly mad at him. It all makes sense. ***** THAT GUY!!! He should be in jail right now! LOCK HIM UP! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 BTW, that is the girl in that video. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 The tape, if that girl in it is really the victim, makes this story even sadder……somehow. Yes she made an error in judgement attending that party. In an odd way it displays how everyone’s guard was down, because it was a chaotic rah rah party atmosphere with everyone seeming carefree and friendly. Clearly this was not the actual case. It’s awful beyond words. To me, in an environment like that it seems more plausible than before that something horrific like what she described happened. A few people in a massive crowd, with an evil plan whether premeditated or executed on the spur of the moment. Disgusting. I imagined…..not sure why…..a party that was a lot different than that hellscape. Does that make it more or less likely that if she was indeed thrown into a room to get raped that Araiza was the one who did that? I’m not sure how anyone could think it helps prove either side’s story. On the one hand he has apparently confirmed his presence and his attorney has stated….I haven’t see this but others on here have…..that Araiza had consensual sex with her, which connects them. On the other, it sure seems to me that a lot of things about that night would be cloudy in someone’s memory. If she was filmed before meeting Araiza, it shows her already impaired, if she was filmed after, it calls her story into question completely. To me, it exposes both lawyers as liars….beyond being the idiots that they have already shown themselves to be. This is the least surprising aspect of seeing the tape. I could have guessed it already. I’m wondering how the “Beane should have acted more quickly” crowd feels after watching this tape. Beane stated he was trying to get to the truth in order to do the right thing, The assertion of several on here is that he could have easily gotten to the heart of the matter by employing more “investigation resources”….you know, call around to some witnesses and get the straight scoop…..easy peasy. I’m wondering now if they see what a joke their premise was. I don’t expect much but more descriptions of how Beane should have gone about his job and turned over all the stones. Yeah ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
extrahammer Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 12 hours ago, BullBuchanan said: Everything that could be wrong with a statement on sexual assault is in your statement. He's really absolved of nothing except that it's possible he didn't know she was underage. It's still possible that he knew, as well as it's possible that he's guilty of everything else on top of it. Unfortunately your statements are pretty common in the way people approach these incidents and It's probably why there's so little prevention and so little justice. You can say whatever you want, but you disputed me on how basic civil suit processes work a few days ago and now you're disputing the publicly available facts. You keep trying to shame people neutral on the topic as rape apologists and that's just simply a farce. The reality is she's 18 now, her and her attorney decided to make this public and put false facts out there. Again, I do think she was raped, but at this point, there's no evidence whatsoever that indicates Araiza did it. You do realize she's made multiple contradicting public statements as well? Claiming it was consensual and then it wasn't. What has prevented justice in a lot of these cases is shoddy legal work, her attorney was never well-experienced in this field and it has shown. He doesn't have a good track record, and no matter what you say, you do not beat abuse with more abuse. Her attorney has lashed at everyone but her, he's even lashed out at Bills fans saying they'll believe anything the team tells them and if you know the Bills fan base, you know that is actually the complete opposite. He's lashed out at every turn when it hasn't gone his way, and that's his own fault. If you really care about reviewing the facts of this case, listen to Tim Graham's podcast where he had an attorney on analyzing all the facts. She summarizes what I've been saying since Monday. At this point it's suspect he even filed anything because there's still no case number assigned. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 19 minutes ago, Bandito said: Not really. Facts are still coming out. Some of us still believe in the rule of law and innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not the court of social media/twitter etc My point wasn't to say that Araiza is guilty. My point was to say that there's nothing to show that he's not guilty. This girl could have gone on video and said, "I want to f*** every guy here tonight!" That is still not an invitation to be raped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CountDorkula Posted September 2, 2022 Share Posted September 2, 2022 29 minutes ago, Bandito said: Not really. Facts are still coming out. Some of us still believe in the rule of law and innocent until proven guilty in a court of law, not the court of social media/twitter etc SO are you on other chat boards or social media platforms trying to unwind the facts of other sexual misconduct and rape cases, or only this one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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