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Ken Dorsey Tuesday presser


Beck Water
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1 hour ago, BillsShredder83 said:

Do you want Josh to have a Cam Newton kind of career, or a Brady/Manning type of career?

I want him to have a Josh Allen kind of career.

 

Running the ball does not lead to more injuries. QB's are hurt more in the pocket than anywhere else. In fact, Cam Newton was beat up IN THE POCKET, not on his run plays.

Edited by MJS
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18 minutes ago, MJS said:

I want him to have a Josh Allen kind of career.

 

Running the ball does not lead to more injuries. QB's are hurt more in the pocket than anywhere else. In fact, Cam Newton was beat up IN THE POCKET, not on his run plays.

Josh's worst injury as a Bill has been in the pocket.

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19 minutes ago, MJS said:

I want him to have a Josh Allen kind of career.

 

Running the ball does not lead to more injuries. QB's are hurt more in the pocket than anywhere else. In fact, Cam Newton was beat up IN THE POCKET, not on his run plays.

 

That, and the NFL/Refs absolutely HATED Cam Newton and allowed defenders to deliver cheap/dirty/illegal hits. They do not have the same attitude towards Josh, who is quickly becoming the NFL's golden boy as he truly is the best story the NFL has going. He is the anti-Watson in every way. The NFL should be doing everything possible to prop Josh up and have him be the guarded centerpiece of the league, in hopes his light outshines all the shadiness of other players' behavior.

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The THREAT of Allen's running should be enough to keep defenses honest and the amount he runs, compared to prior seasions, should be reduced.  When a QB leaves the pocket and runs, he's fair game to be hit by defeders, just like a RB.  Even if he slides or goes out of bounds, all it takes is one illegal hit by a defender (to the head, knee, etc.) and Allen could be out for several weeks and/or the season.  Hello Case Keenum and bye, bye Super Bowl hopes.  Not only does it impact his chances of injury for this season, it also adds to the overall wear and tear on his body for his career.  I'm fine with Allen scrambling when there's a huge hole up the middle or around the edge, and in key situations in key games, but I don't like designed runs in non-critical situations.   If it's 4th and inches in a tight ballgame and Allen is the better option to Moss, by all means run Allen.  If it's first and 10 at the 50 in the first quarter, don't run a designed QB sweep.  Give the ball to a RB.

 

With an improved RB running game, the team should be able to decrease the number of runs by Allen.  Sure, QBs get hit in the pocket on pass plays and get injured.  Nobody is arguing that they don't.  But that's not the question to ask.  The correct question is how often do QB's get hurt when the hand the ball off to a RB?  With proper blocking and playcalling, I believe that Singletary, Moss, and Cook should be able to get a lot of the yardage on the ground that Allen was called on to get in the last few seasons.  The threat of Allen's passing ability should also open things up for the RB running game.

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Should be heard after every blow out win piped loud as the crowd is leaving

 

Psycho Killer
Qu'est-ce que c'est?
Fa-fa-fa-fa, fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-fa, better
Run, run, run, run, run, run, run away

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Warcodered said:

Josh's worst injury as a Bill has been in the pocket.

 

Unclear, although the alternate candidate wasn't a run, it was rolling left trying to extend a play vs the Raiders in 2020.  Josh didn't miss time for that shoulder sprain, but it was pretty clear he was affected for the next 4 games.  Completion percentage, pass yards, TD, passer rating...

 

My guess is that the hit Josh took his rookie year that sat him down for four games was possibly something Josh today would have come back from sooner.  Partly the Bills used that as a reason to press "Pause" and say "Sit, Watch, and Learn, Rook"

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, In Summary said:

Hot take:  Daboll was comfortable running Josh to help his (Daboll's) career.

 

I hadn't thought of it that way, but you have a point

 

3 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

The Bosa one was one I had in mind. Other than that, I aint worried, and even that was flukey. He takes equally or even more hits in the pocket. Maybe we shouldnt pass as much?

 

Out of all the running Josh has done (a record setting amount, btw), yall were able to dig up 4-5 instances that worried you. Ok. Equally proves my point.

 

Aint worried.

 

DrDawkenstein: "I cant think of a single running instance where he took a big hit, or a bad hit, or even a hit that made me wince a little. Not one."

(someone makes a cursory search, comes up with a concussion, a corkscrew tackle that looked like it coulda blown a knee, a knee to the face while sliding, and a foot injury that coulda been serious)

DrDawkenstein: "You were only able to find 4 or 5 instances that worried you"

 

Hello!  One instance, let alone 5, disproves "I can't think of a single running instance where he took a big hit". 

 

Just acknowledge your memory was flawed, and there have been multiple hits that could have resulted in a multi-game absence. 

 

Just how many potentially serious injury-causing hits do you think are needed to impact a season?

 

Whoopity dooo, you're not worried, but many folks who are aware that RB have shorter careers because all the hits they take mount up, are worried.  And I believe one of those guys is our General Manager, who openly says he gets on Josh's case for taking hits.

Edited by Beck Water
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Just now, Beck Water said:

 

I hadn't thought of it that way, but you have a point

 

 

DrDawkenstein: "I cant think of a single running instance where he took a big hit, or a bad hit, or even a hit that made me wince a little. Not one."

(someone makes a cursory search, comes up with a concussion, a corkscrew tackle that looked like it coulda blown a knee, a knee to the face while sliding, and a foot injury that coulda been serious)

DrDawkenstein: "You were only able to find 4 or 5 instances that worried you"

 

Hello!  One instance, let alone 5, disproves "I can't think of a single running instance where he took a big hit". 

 

Just acknowledge your memory was flawed, and there have been multiple hits that could have resulted in a multi-game absence.  Just how many potentially serious hits do you think are needed to impact a season?

 

Whoopity dooo, you're not worried, but many folks who are aware that RB have shorter careers because all the hits they take mount up, are worried.  And I believe one of those guys is our General Manager, who openly says he gets on Josh's case for taking hits.

 

Season 4 Michael GIF by The Office

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6 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I hadn't thought of it that way, but you have a point

 

 

DrDawkenstein: "I cant think of a single running instance where he took a big hit, or a bad hit, or even a hit that made me wince a little. Not one."

(someone makes a cursory search, comes up with a concussion, a corkscrew tackle that looked like it coulda blown a knee, a knee to the face while sliding, and a foot injury that coulda been serious)

DrDawkenstein: "You were only able to find 4 or 5 instances that worried you"

 

Hello!  One instance, let alone 5, disproves "I can't think of a single running instance where he took a big hit". 

 

Just acknowledge your memory was flawed, and there have been multiple hits that could have resulted in a multi-game absence. 

 

Just how many potentially serious injury-causing hits do you think are needed to impact a season?

 

Whoopity dooo, you're not worried, but many folks who are aware that RB have shorter careers because all the hits they take mount up, are worried.  And I believe one of those guys is our General Manager, who openly says he gets on Josh's case for taking hits.

 

Nah, Not worried and there arent enough cases of him getting hit to make me worry about it.

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3 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Nah, Not worried and there arent enough cases of him getting hit to make me worry about it.

 

"It's proven my memory is wrong, I'm not big enough to just admit it, and I have no effective counter arguments.  So I'll just reiterate "nothing to see here, Move Along"

 

I agree, nothing to see here, so I'll move along

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Designed runs are part of what makes Allen so effective.  I think I saw Allen take more hard hits staying in the pocket than I ever saw him taking when running the ball.  He should never try to be a Michael Vick, but I'm fine with him making an occasional run that might be the difference between winning and losing.

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11 hours ago, Beck Water said:

 

Good article here

https://www.fantasypoints.com/nfl/articles/season/2021/mobile-quarterbacks-and-injury-rates

 

However, bear in mind that a QB being hit in the pocket has the protection of "roughing the passer" calls, while a QB outside the pocket is essentially a running back who can be picked up and slammed to the ground and gang-tackled. 

 

Acute injury is not the only concern; cumulative wear-and-tear on the body is what seems to degrade the performance of RBs going into their 30's.

 

This is a good point. 

 

But let's say the Bills keep using Josh as a running threat and the wear-and-tear adds up.  So in his 30s, he won't be much of a runner anymore but the league's best passer?  

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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

This is a good point. 

 

But let's say the Bills keep using Josh as a running threat and the wear-and-tear adds up.  So in his 30s, he won't be much of a runner anymore but the league's best passer?  

 

I dunno.  I've never played RB or QB.

 

But, with all the hits, injuries can accrue to the shoulders and arms...Josh already has a steel plate and a bunch of screws in his right clavicle after breaking it in 7 places during his first start in WYO.   I could be wrong, but I think quick,clean coordinated footwork is also part of being an accurate passer - maybe less so for Josh now, but if his shoulder/arm strength decline, technique would surely become more critical?

 

Then there's the mental aspect - is part of the decline a RB accrues with age due to mental processing, being less able to match patterns and spot holes?  If so that kind of decline might impact a QB's ability to read defenses and make fast, correct decisions about where to go with the ball

 

He might stay good as a passer.  I'd rather back down on the use of Josh in designed runs.  I don't think I'm unique here - Beane has been pretty vocal about wanting Josh to avoid hits, Jim Kelly has publicly said he's spoken on this point to McDermott, etc.

Edited by Beck Water
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6 hours ago, CaliBills said:

 

And this is a big reason in why I see us being actually more even in how the Bills Offense can attack defenses.

 

His off-field antics aside, this guy BELONGS on McDermott's staff. What an amazing approach to teaching offensive line play and assembling the best OL group possible. Coaches who are willing to tailor everything to the specific talents they're coaching will continue to have success in today's and tomorrow's league. More than ever, players (and students) respond to feeling "seen." 

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1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

I dunno.  I've never played RB or QB.

 

But, with all the hits, injuries can accrue to the shoulders and arms...Josh already has a steel plate and a bunch of screws in his right clavicle after breaking it in 7 places during his first start in WYO.   I could be wrong, but I think quick,clean coordinated footwork is also part of being an accurate passer - maybe less so for Josh now, but if his shoulder/arm strength decline, technique would surely become more critical?

 

Then there's the mental aspect - is part of the decline a RB accrues with age due to mental processing, being less able to match patterns and spot holes?  If so that kind of decline might impact a QB's ability to read defenses and make fast, correct decisions about where to go with the ball

 

He might stay good as a passer.  I'd rather back down on the use of Josh in designed runs.  I don't think I'm unique here - Beane has been pretty vocal about wanting Josh to avoid hits, Jim Kelly has publicly said he's spoken on this point to McDermott, etc.

 

On one hand, there are QBs who physically fell off cliffs after repeated/cumulative punishment: happened quickly with Cam Newton, happened a little more slowly with Jim Kelly, and happened eventually with Ben Rapelessburger. Those guys were limping shells of their former selves when they retired. John Elway had just enough athleticism left at the end of his career to steer that Cadillac, but sure seems like he is fairly broken. 

 

Brady's obviously never allowed any physical punishment with his elite decision-making, release, and sometimes cringe-worthy sense of self-preservation. He's just a walking, breathing business decision. And look at him flourish, that vapid victory machine. 

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3 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

On one hand, there are QBs who physically fell off cliffs after repeated/cumulative punishment: happened quickly with Cam Newton, happened a little more slowly with Jim Kelly, and happened eventually with Ben Rapelessburger. Those guys were limping shells of their former selves when they retired. John Elway had just enough athleticism left at the end of his career to steer that Cadillac, but sure seems like he is fairly broken. 

 

Brady's obviously never allowed any physical punishment with his elite decision-making, release, and sometimes cringe-worthy sense of self-preservation. He's just a walking, breathing business decision. And look at him flourish, that vapid victory machine. 

These are many of the examples that keep rambling in my head as I read the replies here.  We have all laughed at Brady’s rush to fetal position; he’s taken self preservation to new heights.  But he’s 45 and still playing like he’s 35.  
 

Other than Favre, which QBs that regularly played with reckless abandon for their body played well into their 40s?  So the question then becomes how long do we want to see Josh play?  I prefer to watch  him leading us into the playoffs for the next 20 years.  Hence, he needs to take advantage of the league’s rules that protect a QB.  And the OC needs to design an offense that doesn’t put him in harm’s way multiple times each  game.   

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

On one hand, there are QBs who physically fell off cliffs after repeated/cumulative punishment: happened quickly with Cam Newton, happened a little more slowly with Jim Kelly, and happened eventually with Ben Rapelessburger. Those guys were limping shells of their former selves when they retired. John Elway had just enough athleticism left at the end of his career to steer that Cadillac, but sure seems like he is fairly broken. 

 

Brady's obviously never allowed any physical punishment with his elite decision-making, release, and sometimes cringe-worthy sense of self-preservation. He's just a walking, breathing business decision. And look at him flourish, that vapid victory machine. 

 

Thank you for putting a little "***** in my grits" with that last (depressing but true) paragraph.

 

So to try to summarize succinctly:

 

There are two injury concerns for QB. 

 

One is the risk of acute injury causing lost time or a lost season, on any given play.  There are some data suggesting the risk of acute injury may actually be a bit lower outside the pocket, while running, than inside the pocket (link to article upthread in response to @muppy).

 

The other is the risk of cumulative "bumps and bruises" and from injuries that were played through after rehab that allowed functionality but not complete healing.  As one character in a book I read put it: "no one told me that my body would add all those up through my teens and 20's, and hand me a blll in my 30's".  That "bill" may not just interfere with a QB's mobility, but potentially also his throwing abilities and his mental processing.

 

The QB "in the pocket" has the protection of "roughing the passer" rules and ability to throw away the ball.  The QB who scrambles has the protection of sliding or running out of bounds.  The QB who operates as an RB in "designed runs" lacks all of these protections: running in traffic behind and between blockers limits his abilities to "give himself up" 

 

Josh has shown an increased willingness to slide or to get out of bounds as he's progressed.  But he has taken dangerous-looking hits with clear potential to cause lost time as a runner, and then there's the "bill in your 30's" from bumps and bruises.  That is why some of us (including Brandon Beane, apparently) feel that the Bills need a credible run threat that does not involve Josh Allen operating as the "best running back on the team", and why use of Josh on designed runs should be limited.

 

Ovah and Out

Edited by Beck Water
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