Players that are ST only…how much value do they have?

[LabattBlue]

Kumerow, Matekevich & Jones. How do they justify keeping all 3, considering 2 of the 4 ST units(kickoff & kickoff return units) have been neutered 2/3 of the time(just a rough guess on my part) by touchbacks?

 

Therefore, they keep 3 guys mainly for punt & punt return teams?  Seems like a luxury to me. 1 of the 3 players…ok. 2 of the 3…tough sell. All 3…no way.  Not when good young players will be cut to keep the ST’ers on the roster. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by BTB

[buffaloboyinATL]

The good teams invest in Special Teams, and are better for it. It is more important than most give it credit for. 

[The Wiz]

It's a balancing act for sure. 

 

The reality is even if they are good young players, there are other guys in front of them on the depth chart so their playing time is going to be limited unless there is an injury. 

 

If these players aren't taking over for the ST players you mentioned, then someone is going to have to play STs for them as well as defense/offense.

 

It's how any time Hyde has to take a punt most people want him to just fair catch it to eliminate the possibility of him getting injured. 

[JoPoy88]

8 minutes ago, BTB said:

Kumerow, Matekevich & Jones. How do they justify keeping all 3, considering 2 of the 4 ST units(kickoff & kickoff return units) have been neutered 2/3 of the time(just a rough guess on my part) by touchbacks?

 

Therefore, they keep 3 guys mainly for punt & punt return teams?  Seems like a luxury to me. 1 of the 3 players…ok. 2 of the 3…tough sell. All 3…no way.  Not when good young players will be cut to keep the ST’ers on the roster. 

I could see them letting one of those three go if they really like one of the young guys and suspect they won’t be able to stash on the PS (and several of them played well yesterday.) Other than that, the coaches have shown they greatly value ST and will keep them.

[Pete]

IMO a punt return or kickoff return for TD is one of most momentum changing plays.  It's a great way to start a game.  It's a great way to answer to a opposing TD.  And it's a crushing play when it happens to us.  Bills have had some shaky special teams play many times the past 5 years.  Lets shut down every kickoff and punt,  and make them try the Bills D,

Edited August 14, 2022 by Pete

[NoSaint]

5 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

The good teams invest in Special Teams, and are better for it. It is more important than most give it credit for. 

 
 

yes and no? 
 

a highly reliable kicker and a couple guys you can trust at returner… a good captain that can be an onfield coach and spirit of the unit.. and any incremental gains from there are relatively minimal as long as you aren’t running out guys that have no idea what’s going on. 
 

 

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

…Bills have had some shaky special teams play many times the past 5 years.

So the notion that having dedicated ST players makes for great ST, is not working. 😉

[Rc2catch]

They are ST only but all 3 of those guys have contributed when forced/needed in the lineup. 
Taiwan helped kill our season in Houston. We don’t use him as a running back but it’s not like he can’t help  produce from that spot if needed.
Matekevich imo has played well when needed. 
I trust the team to make the decisions. We don’t know what these guys contribute in film or practice as well. 
Sometimes it’s good to bet on talent developing as the season goes on, but sometimes it’s smarter to go with what’s proven. 

[NoSaint]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

IMO a punt return or kickoff return for TD is one of most momentum changing plays.  It's a great way to start a game.  It's a great way to answer to a opposing TD.  And it's a crushing play when it happens to us.  Bills have had some shaky special teams play many times the past 5 years.  Lets shut down every kickoff and punt,  and make them try the Bills D,

yea but in 136 games there were just 9 of those kick return touchdowns. Only 8 teams had a KRTD… that’s one per division per season for perspective. Then roll in how many are in garbage time, or didnt effect the game at all. 
 

id bet many more impact plays (good and bad) were made by WR5, LB5 

 

a kr td sure is exciting to see but it’s not something I’m sacrificing meaningful snaps elsewhere for. 

[Pete]

5 minutes ago, BTB said:

So the notion that having dedicated ST players makes for great ST, is not working. 😉

Do you aren’t a fan of Mathew Slater?  How about Steve Tasker?

 

[LabattBlue]

1 minute ago, Pete said:

Do you aren’t a fan of Mathew Slater?  How about Steve Tasker?

 

My response to you had to do with you saying our ST have been shaky the last few years DESPITE having these all-world ST standouts.  

[JoPoy88]

3 minutes ago, BTB said:

My response to you had to do with you saying our ST have been shaky the last few years DESPITE having these all-world ST standouts.  

I get this reasoning. I’d argue out of the 3 you listed, only Jones is really untouchable.

[Mat68]

This is a big question.  Spector or Matykavich?  Spector is more athletic and has more natural instincts imo.  Is he better than a guy who played special teams only for 6 years?  No.  Could he be above average?  Imo yes.  Neal and Jones are big fast guys so they are good at gunner.  They really are not natural football players imo.  They are athletes who found a niche.  I cant justify keeping both.  Blackshear still imo can make PS.  Bedford and Lewis are worth keeping vs Neal being below average at both positions.

[Thurman#1]

10 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

yea but in 136 games there were just 9 of those kick return touchdowns. Only 8 teams had a KRTD… that’s one per division per season for perspective. Then roll in how many are in garbage time, or didnt effect the game at all. 
 

id bet many more impact plays (good and bad) were made by WR5, LB5 

 

a kr td sure is exciting to see but it’s not something I’m sacrificing meaningful snaps elsewhere for. 

 

 

There are a lot more STs impact plays kicks than TDs. A run out to the 40 or 45, stoning an opponent's return inside the 20, these are impact plays. Matakevich had an absolute game-saving play recovering that surprise onside kick Belichick called, was it in 2020? Plus some nice work on D here and there.f

 

And while I'm not willing to go count, I doubt more impact plays were made by WR5s and LB5s. Plus, Kumerow had a great TD catch. Matakevich had an absolute game-saving play recovering that surprise onside kick Belichick called, was it in 2020? Plus some nice work on D here and there.

[GunnerBill]

Plenty. 

 

I do think there is a legitimate conversation of "Kumerow or Jones?" this year but only if there are skill guys you would otherwise be cutting who are worth keeping. I am not sold on that. At the moment I am struggling to find a second tight end, Blackshear is a nice story at RB but he will make it to the PS no problem and then at receiver I have more "arrows down" than "arrows up" at the moment.

Edited August 14, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Pete]

12 minutes ago, BTB said:

My response to you had to do with you saying our ST have been shaky the last few years DESPITE having these all-world ST standouts.  

It’s not a question how many spots we deadicate to special teams.  It’s a matter of having the best available.  Surely you dont have a problem if Bills used 1 roster spot on Slater.

Slater isn’t available unfortunately.  Kumerow is one of better gunners in NFL.  Taiwan Jones is beast on special teams.  As is Siran Neal.   They are our best available.  If there was better available, go sign them.  But there is lots of shoddy special teams in NFL.  And there would be big drop off from those 3 ST play IMO

3 phases to game.  Why not try and excel at all 3 phases?

Edited August 14, 2022 by Pete

[VaMilBill]

18 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

yea but in 136 games there were just 9 of those kick return touchdowns. Only 8 teams had a KRTD… that’s one per division per season for perspective. Then roll in how many are in garbage time, or didnt effect the game at all. 
 

id bet many more impact plays (good and bad) were made by WR5, LB5 

 

a kr td sure is exciting to see but it’s not something I’m sacrificing meaningful snaps elsewhere for. 

It doesn’t have to be only a KRTD. It could be a return that puts the other team in great field position (which is a killer if you are in a defensive slugfest or if you are only up by 2 points or less with little time remaining in the game). 
 

ST does matter and so does carrying ST specific players. Ask Steve Tasker. Or the Slater from NE. It’s important to have 3-4 ST studs. 
 

I hate to say it but St Doug was right in one respect. He said to win a game you need to win 2 of the 3 phases. So he built defense first. Then he started on the ST unit. Execution was poor, but the philosophy is right IMO

[NoSaint]

8 minutes ago, Pete said:

It’s not a question how many spots we deadicate to special teams.  It’s a matter of having the best available.  Surely you dont have a problem if Bills used 1 roster spot on Slater.

Slater isn’t available unfortunately.  Kumerow is one of better gunners in NFL.  Taiwan Jones is beast on special teams.  As is Siran Neal.   They are our best available.  If there was better available, go sign them.  But there is lots of shoddy special teams in NFL.  And there would be big drop off from those 3 ST play IMO

3 phases to game.  Why not try and excel at all 3 phases?

because 2 constitute 80% of the game, kickers are another 15% and coverage/returns are about 5% theses days 

 

so how much of your roster do you dedicate to 5% over 80%?

 

It’s not a set balance, and the talent available can effect it… but you can’t pull too many resources 

5 minutes ago, VaMilBill said:

It doesn’t have to be only a KRTD. It could be a return that puts the other team in great field position (which is a killer if you are in a defensive slugfest or if you are only up by 2 points or less with little time remaining in the game). 
 

ST does matter and so does carrying ST specific players. Ask Steve Tasker. Or the Slater from NE. It’s important to have 3-4 ST studs. 
 

I hate to say it but St Doug was right in one respect. He said to win a game you need to win 2 of the 3 phases. So he built defense first. Then he started on the ST unit. Execution was poor, but the philosophy is right IMO

it doesn’t just have to be that but I was replying to a specific post arguing for those. 

Edited August 14, 2022 by NoSaint

[Pete]

37 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

because 2 constitute 80% of the game, kickers are another 15% and coverage/returns are about 5% theses days 

 

so how much of your roster do you dedicate to 5% over 80%?

 

It’s not a set balance, and the talent available can effect it… but you can’t pull too many resources 

 

You can get all fancy discussing % roster spot spending nuances

it’s all about final score.  If Bills return a punt for game winning score, we win game- what % is that worth?

if converse happened and we lost in those circumstances, because we were rigid with 5% roster ST allotment(instead of prioritizing ST), how does that factor in?

We should strive to be top notch in all 3 phases.  Marv Levy was a huge proponent of special teams.  And those Bills special teams were special.  #89 and Pike were all time great ST tandem

[Allen2D̶i̶g̶g̶s̶TBD]

The one that I find most ridiculous is long-snapper. Your backup center should just be the long-snapper.