SoCal Deek Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 42 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said: No its not in a strictly legal sense. But since abortion is now murder in a lot of states, and men don't get pregnant, how do you enforce the law? Well these ancillary questions are what they hope to distract you with so you aren’t forced to look at the gruesome heart of the matter. I said before it’s a really tough question. One that deserves serious societal debate. But this is not about privacy. If it was, then you could kill (including yourself), ingest anything, or rob, or rape anyone you want, so long as you do it in private. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted June 29, 2022 Author Share Posted June 29, 2022 No kidding. Just like it always should have been decided. After Dobbs, the Path Forward Is Not Through the Courts. “While it may sound strange coming from the lawyer who heads the ACLU, the real path forward is not through the courts. We must turn to the political process and increase pressure on elected officials—especially at the state and local level. State Constitutions will provide opportunities for new advocacy. We can enact constitutional amendments and pass ballot measures that expand abortion rights and access, as we are doing in Michigan this November.” https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/roe-dobbs-aclu/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 Hospital in Missouri no longer providing emergency contraceptives Quote Under new Missouri law, doctors who perform or induce an abortion not related to a medical emergency can be charged with a Class B felony. That would result in their license being revoked, and a possible prison sentence of 5-15 years. The hospital system will still allow contraception and abortion-related care at its Kansas locations. “First, the Missouri law is ambiguous, but may be interpreted as criminalizing emergency contraception. As a system that deeply cares about its team, we simply cannot put our clinicians in a position that might result in criminal prosecution,” a statement from St. Luke’s reads. “St. Luke’s will continue to monitor the situation to ensure the reproductive care we provide, including abortions for maternal medical emergencies, continues to comply fully with all applicable laws.” The silver lining here, is that their other hospital is in Kansas. So if you get raped in Kansas City, Missouri, you can still hop the border to get treated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T&C Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/politics/2022/06/29/pelosi-receives-communion-in-vatican-amid-abortion-debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 11 hours ago, Gene Frenkle said: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? -Epicurus I’m going to guess that you’re not god….correct? 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 1 hour ago, ChiGoose said: Hospital in Missouri no longer providing emergency contraceptives The silver lining here, is that their other hospital is in Kansas. So if you get raped in Kansas City, Missouri, you can still hop the border to get treated. That’s a dumb law that should be changed. (Probably pushed through while no one was paying attention)This will be up to the people to accomplish. Perhaps Medical personnel should leave the state and hospitals should leave the state. The democratic process will have an influence on the market for medical services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1 Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 I think a bunch of republican states have extreme laws that were passed just to please the religious right, without ever thinking they would actually take effect. Now they are in effect. Hopefully the medical community and outraged citizens push the politics to modify these draconian laws. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 3 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: That’s a dumb law that should be changed. (Probably pushed through while no one was paying attention)This will be up to the people to accomplish. Perhaps Medical personnel should leave the state and hospitals should leave the state. The democratic process will have an influence on the market for medical services. This is my major concern about Roe no longer being the law of the land. There is absolutely nothing preventing states from passing incredibly stupid laws or laws that are so vague that doctors do not know how to act. Mississippi drafted a law that said that removing ectopic pregnancies count as abortions and are there for illegal before they ended up removing that provision: Source: Quote Missouri legislators held a public hearing on a bill that would make it a felony to "perform or induce an abortion" to treat an ectopic pregnancy. Ectopic pregnancies never result in a baby and can be fatal if left untreated. While the Missouri bill is expected to fail, the legislation is an example of how ectopic pregnancy can get mistakenly swept up in efforts to target abortion access. Under the regime of Roe and Casey, that law would have been tossed out had it been approved. Now that we are in a post-Roe world, the only thing stopping these sorts of laws is our voters and politicians. Which does not give me a ton of confidence... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1 Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 30 minutes ago, ChiGoose said: his is my major concern about Roe no longer being the law of the land. There is absolutely nothing preventing states from passing incredibly stupid laws or laws that are so vague that doctors do not know how to act. This is what will happen. I doubt that these legislatures are going to invite the medical community to help craft their laws. Instead they will say something stupid like “only allowed to save the life of the mother”. So if a fetus medically needs to be aborted, will doctors need to wait until the mothers life is in danger before doing the necessary procedure? Will the mother be denied medical care, increasing the risk to her health? They may have to tell women to “come back when you are about to die “. They may eventually figure it out, but women will suffer until then. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted June 29, 2022 Author Share Posted June 29, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted June 29, 2022 Share Posted June 29, 2022 35 minutes ago, Andy1 said: This is what will happen. I doubt that these legislatures are going to invite the medical community to help craft their laws. Instead they will say something stupid like “only allowed to save the life of the mother”. So if a fetus medically needs to be aborted, will doctors need to wait until the mothers life is in danger before doing the necessary procedure? Will the mother be denied medical care, increasing the risk to her health? They may have to tell women to “come back when you are about to die “. They may eventually figure it out, but women will suffer until then. This is exactly what has happened in other countries and led to the death of the mothers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 1 hour ago, ChiGoose said: This is exactly what has happened in other countries and led to the death of the mothers. Which is why the Court said to take these debates up with the elected representatives. This should all be hashed out there, and then come back to the court if there are disputes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 12 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: Which is why the Court said to take these debates up with the elected representatives. This should all be hashed out there, and then come back to the court if there are disputes. Personally, I don't think it should be up to politicians as to whether people live or die. But that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 It’s a simple problem to solve. The states need to give exclusive authority to determine the medical need for an abortion to the patients doctor. No other subjective qualifications required for the procedure. Somehow, I don’t think that’s going to happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiGoose Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 6 minutes ago, Andy1 said: It’s a simple problem to solve. The states need to give exclusive authority to determine the medical need for an abortion to the patients doctor. No other subjective qualifications required for the procedure. Somehow, I don’t think that’s going to happen. I think that there is good room for common ground of a majority of Americans. Prevent unwanted pregnancies that lead to abortions: Comprehensive sex ed Easy access to free contraceptives Make it easier to choose life: Re-enact the child tax credit from last year Universal free pre-natal and post-natal healthcare Parental leave Free or affordable childcare Free or affordable meals for kids If we focused on why we have abortions, we could make progress towards both reducing the number of abortions and starting a pro-natalist movement in the US. We could remove the messiness of doctors needing lawyers to tell them what they can and can't do to help their patients while making it far likely that someone would seek an abortion for non-medical needs. But if we leave it to the states, then women in some states are going to have to make some very difficult choices about their lives and their legal liability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 6 hours ago, ChiGoose said: This is my major concern about Roe no longer being the law of the land. There is absolutely nothing preventing states from passing incredibly stupid laws or laws that are so vague that doctors do not know how to act. Mississippi drafted a law that said that removing ectopic pregnancies count as abortions and are there for illegal before they ended up removing that provision: Source: Under the regime of Roe and Casey, that law would have been tossed out had it been approved. Now that we are in a post-Roe world, the only thing stopping these sorts of laws is our voters and politicians. Which does not give me a ton of confidence... Ectopic pregnancies are never viable. This is known medical fact. That is likely why such a provision was removed. The fact it was even included in a draft shows extreme ignorance. If it were included, such a law would ultimately be unconstitutional, no? I believe that document would have something to say about what laws can be passed. As for confidence, who else but the people (via their duly elected representative politicians ) should be making laws anyway? It would seem such a process is the entire idea of our Republic. Exactly what does inspire confidence in you when it comes to our American system of government? 2 hours ago, ChiGoose said: I think that there is good room for common ground of a majority of Americans. Prevent unwanted pregnancies that lead to abortions: Comprehensive sex ed Easy access to free contraceptives Make it easier to choose life: Re-enact the child tax credit from last year Universal free pre-natal and post-natal healthcare Parental leave Free or affordable childcare Free or affordable meals for kids If we focused on why we have abortions, we could make progress towards both reducing the number of abortions and starting a pro-natalist movement in the US. We could remove the messiness of doctors needing lawyers to tell them what they can and can't do to help their patients while making it far likely that someone would seek an abortion for non-medical needs. But if we leave it to the states, then women in some states are going to have to make some very difficult choices about their lives and their legal liability. So the issue of abortion can be solved by simply handing out “ free” (i.e someone else pays for it..) stuff? Brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boatdrinks Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 5 hours ago, Andy1 said: This is what will happen. I doubt that these legislatures are going to invite the medical community to help craft their laws. Instead they will say something stupid like “only allowed to save the life of the mother”. So if a fetus medically needs to be aborted, will doctors need to wait until the mothers life is in danger before doing the necessary procedure? Will the mother be denied medical care, increasing the risk to her health? They may have to tell women to “come back when you are about to die “. They may eventually figure it out, but women will suffer until then. If the politicians will only write stupid ideas into law, why would the people of these states continue to elect them as their representatives ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringMetheHeadofLeonLett Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 On 6/26/2022 at 7:53 AM, Chef Jim said: Dipshit? He seemed to be happy for the Dems. 🙄 There are no Dems. There is no us and them. There are Americans, and there are dipshits. Americans make this country work. Dipshits argue its demise. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 4 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: So the issue of abortion can be solved by simply handing out “ free” (i.e someone else pays for it..) stuff? Brilliant. As a taxpayer, does it make more sense as a taxpayer to pay to prevent a pregnancy than pay for 18 years of welfare for single mothers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1 Posted June 30, 2022 Share Posted June 30, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Boatdrinks said: If the politicians will only write stupid ideas into law, why would the people of these states continue to elect them as their representatives ? Are you naive enough to believe that legislatures dominated by men will write the laws governing the bodies of women correctly the first time? I would bet that the tendency will be for them to over reach to please the religious righteous. Over the years, the laws may be corrected but until then, women will suffer. Edited June 30, 2022 by Andy1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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