Why don't NFL players have Tommy John surgery?

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, SACTOBILLSFAN said:

The same reason you rarely see torn labrum injuries in QBs as a result of throwing. The arm path is completely different and the overall stress on the UCL isn’t near the same as a baseball player. 
 

Every pitch is thrown with maximum intent and passes in football are not. The power generated through the kinetic chain from ankle flexion all the way through hip and shoulder separation to external rotation in the shoulder then finally into the elbow is exponentially higher in baseball. I have Modus data to back this up but it’s just charts and graphs and not great for this format. For a visual just imagine in your head how a pitcher finishes off every pitch and how a QB finishes every throw. One is considerably more violent than the other. Pitchers have much more in common with javelin throwers than QBs when it comes to arm and shoulder stress and studying javelin throwing was how many breakthroughs in velocity happened. 
 

And as many people have mentioned in this thread, the overall difference in the number of reps in a game or practice is vast. Without taking into account spring and offseason work a starting professional pitcher will throw 5000ish pitches in season. Even the most sparsely used relievers will throw at a volume that QBs just don’t see. 

 

 

To me........the grip in throwing a baseball is a big issue with the ulnar nerve.   It's very closed and focuses torque into the upper forearm.   I still pitch BP to kids in youth baseball and my forearm is aching like an SOB after just 50-60 full force pitches or less.     The wide open grip on the football seems to put A LOT less torque on the forearm.   I have never felt that pain in the forearm throwing a football.    

[cba fan]

4 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

A serious question:

 

Baseball players/pitchers sometime require Tommy John surgery because the throwing motion in baseball is unnatural (overhand).

Softball players don't require Tommy John because underhand throwing is actually the natural motion for our arms and shoulders.

 

NFL QB's throw overhand....

 

I'm surprised more QB's haven't had to undergo Tommy John surgery.

 

Is there a reason?

much less throws at much lower speed. Less wind up and follow through. Arm does not go as far back as a pitcher. No mound to fall forward and down on to increase speed and stress on arm. No snapping of elbow sideways to throw curves, sliders, and screwballs.

[Putin]

4 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

I'm not sure how he survives each game.

 

 

What does that has to do with Tua ? 

[NoSaint]

57 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

To me........the grip in throwing a baseball is a big issue with the ulnar nerve.   It's very closed and focuses torque into the upper forearm.   I still pitch BP to kids in youth baseball and my forearm is aching like an SOB after just 50-60 full force pitches or less.     The wide open grip on the football seems to put A LOT less torque on the forearm.   I have never felt that pain in the forearm throwing a football.    

 

picturing badol throwing heaters at 7 year olds. 
 

48 minutes ago, cba fan said:

much less throws at much lower speed. Less wind up and follow through. Arm does not go as far back as a pitcher. No mound to fall forward and down on to increase speed and stress on arm. No snapping of elbow sideways to throw curves, sliders, and screwballs.

Can you imagine if josh got a mound in the pocket? 
 

Would his fast ball or running start down the hill be more exciting?

[Simon Says]

5 hours ago, MJS said:

Pitchers throw at an extremely high velocity 150 times a game. And they have 162 games in a season. They don't play every game, but they play a lot more games than NFL QB's do.

 

So I think they just throw it a ton more than an NFL QB, and probably at a much higher velocity.

Nobody throws 150 pitches,especially with all the relief specialists.

[MJS]

4 minutes ago, Georgie said:

Nobody throws 150 pitches,especially with all the relief specialists.

Fine. I read 100 to 130. Not that far off.

[4merper4mer]

5 hours ago, H2o said:

If we are taking into account solely the stress put on an arm and shoulder as a whole while strictly comparing a pitcher to a QB? Absolutely. Now if you are talking about getting hit? Of course they don't get hit. The stress on a pitcher's arm though is well beyond that of a QB. Starting pitchers are putting everything they have into hurling the ball anywhere between 85-120 times an outing. They may take the mound 35 times in a year. That's well beyond the 30-60 passes a QB may throw in, at the most, 21 games. And QB's aren't always throwing the ball as hard as can either. 

Pitchers don’t get hit?  Shirley.

 

 

[That's No Moon]

2 minutes ago, Georgie said:

Nobody throws 150 pitches,especially with all the relief specialists.

The way the baseball throwing motion is, every single throw stresses the UCL to the breaking point. Warmup pitches, throws to first base, etc. If a pitcher throws 100 pitches in the game they probably throw the ball over 130 times.

 

This is why you see UCL injuries to catchers. They don't throw all out every throw but they get the wear and tear of throw after throw and they don't get relievers.

 

The motion of throwing a football is a fundamentally different motion which stresses different areas. Without getting overly technical, from what I know about baseball throwing motions, there are pitchers who are more at risk than others because of the way they throw. If you look like an M in your delivery it's bad and those guys have more problems because of the way they torque their arms out of that position to throw home. Stephen Strasbourg is an M guy. I've also seen it called inverted W which is silly because...that's an M.

 

Football throwing doesn't put you into that position. You really can't throw a football that way effectively so most people dont. You usually throw footballs up to some degree, baseballs you are throwing down so you can get away with some different things, plus the ball is smaller and lighter. An earlier poster postulated about the grip and it's kind of that but it's more about hand down versus hand up during the wind up. It's hard to explain without a visual. Try it. Stand with your arms like an M and then throw a baseball. You pull the ball up and then around your body, which if you do it fast, and a lot, is very stressful. If you keep your hand up or "fangs out" on the ball you will more naturally rotate your body to throw the ball and use the little muscles in your arm less and put less stress on the elbow. Again, hard to explain, easier to show.

 

https://youtu.be/MDzvD-3neaU

 

This is an example of bad.

 

https://youtu.be/T_l-bMP2c4c

 

[without a drought]

3 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

Have you ever tried to stay awake for an entire baseball game?

 

It aint easy. 

 

Definitely, baseball is a more grueling sport to watch than football.

[co_springs_billsfan]

31 minutes ago, without a drought said:

Definitely, baseball is a more grueling sport to watch than football.

[cDAVIS]

5 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

Faker. That’s the biggest hoax since Will Smith “slapped” Chris Rock. Great theater though. 

You're a very angry and combative human. I can't tell if you're serious or not because everything you say is so out of left field. Whatever, good luck out there bud.

[BobbyC81]

6 hours ago, The Jokeman said:

RJ did but apparently it didn't get him to get his arm strength back according to Wikipedia. 

 

 

Comeback attempts (2006–2008)[edit]

Following his release from Oakland in 2004, Johnson underwent Tommy John surgery, a procedure more commonly performed on baseball pitchers. A tendon was taken from Johnson's wrist and transplanted into his elbow to replace the injured tendon that resembled "a frayed rope" from overuse. After a year of recovery, Johnson worked out for the Tennessee Titans, but was not signed. Reports suggested his arm strength was still under 50%. In 2006, Johnson was signed by the New York Giants to compete for a roster spot behind starter Eli Manning. Johnson was released before the preseason came to an end. In an NFL.com interview, Johnson vowed to continue his career for as long as he could play at "an NFL level."

In September 2008, Johnson was invited to a Titans workout, along with Joey Harrington and Chris Simms. However, the Titans signed Simms as a backup for veteran Kerry Collins. This was Johnson's last reported NFL workout.

Maybe for football, they may call it something different , like the Rob Johnson surgery.

[strive_for_five_guy]

1 hour ago, Georgie said:

Nobody throws 150 pitches,especially with all the relief specialists.

Pud Galvin begs to differ.

[Augie]

7 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

A serious question:

 

Baseball players/pitchers sometime require Tommy John surgery because the throwing motion in baseball is unnatural (overhand).

Softball players don't require Tommy John because underhand throwing is actually the natural motion for our arms and shoulders.

 

NFL QB's throw overhand....

 

I'm surprised more QB's haven't had to undergo Tommy John surgery.

 

Is there a reason?

 

OK, I’ve had a couple drinks and you almost have me talked into it.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

7 hours ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Baseball is a great sport !

 

I'm watching my Beloved Atlanta Braves win 11 games in a row !

 

Very exciting !

 

Booooooooo!!!!

 

From a Mets fan!

 

 

38 minutes ago, BobbyC81 said:

Maybe for football, they may call it something different , like the Rob Johnson surgery.

 

Good point, did anyone Google that?  There may be 100's of cases!

Edited June 14, 2022 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[Big Turk]

7 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

A serious question:

 

Baseball players/pitchers sometime require Tommy John surgery because the throwing motion in baseball is unnatural (overhand).

Softball players don't require Tommy John because underhand throwing is actually the natural motion for our arms and shoulders.

 

NFL QB's throw overhand....

 

I'm surprised more QB's haven't had to undergo Tommy John surgery.

 

Is there a reason?

 

Different throwing motion due to the size of the ball and it's the equivalent of throwing a fastball.

 

Very few pitchers would need Tommy John surgery if all they threw were fastballs. Curves and sliders are the pitches that put a lot of strain on the elbow due to having to get rotation on the ball.

[NoSaint]

52 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Different throwing motion due to the size of the ball and it's the equivalent of throwing a fastball.

 

Very few pitchers would need Tommy John surgery if all they threw were fastballs. Curves and sliders are the pitches that put a lot of strain on the elbow due to having to get rotation on the ball.

follow up: could josh throw curves or breaking balls to help get the ball past defenders? 
 

like, you’d have to practice a lot and maybe have a signal but imagine if josh could could slice or hook his throws? A back shoulder where the receiver stops AND the ball comes back? Deadly. I wonder if Jordan Palmer knows how to do those.

[Big Turk]

4 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

follow up: could josh throw curves or breaking balls to help get the ball past defenders? 
 

like, you’d have to practice a lot and maybe have a signal but imagine if josh could could slice or hook his throws? A back shoulder where the receiver stops AND the ball comes back? Deadly. I wonder if Jordan Palmer knows how to do those.

 

Probably not. A football isn't shaped right for that 

[NoSaint]

3 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Probably not. A football isn't shaped right for that 

maybe, I guess. I think they used to say that about normal passing downfield too.

[BringBackFergy]

4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

To me........the grip in throwing a baseball is a big issue with the ulnar nerve.   It's very closed and focuses torque into the upper forearm.   I still pitch BP to kids in youth baseball and my forearm is aching like an SOB after just 50-60 full force pitches or less.     The wide open grip on the football seems to put A LOT less torque on the forearm.   I have never felt that pain in the forearm throwing a football.    

You need to learn how to throw a football properly. It’s easy. I’ll show you some time.