Spiderweb Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said: They both sucked... Maybe, but Johnson clearly had the edge.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, Spiderweb said: Maybe, but Johnson clearly had the edge.. how so? the guy was an absolutely terrible leader. great athlete, lousy qb. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan1959 Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 4 minutes ago, Spiderweb said: Maybe, but Johnson clearly had the edge.. That's like saying your prom date wasn't the ugliest girl in the class... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted June 1, 2022 Author Share Posted June 1, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Red King said: Tyrod wasn't bad at all. He just wasn't good. He was baseline. He wouldn't lose you games, but wouldn't win you them. He was a 7-9 win QB. Consistant, but nothing more or less. Better traits for a backup then a starter. Basically, Tyrod was good enough that we would blow out bad or mediocre teams and get beaten by good ones and shellacked by great ones. People forget he led a very high scoring offense for the Bills(although it was run first, similar to Baltimore's offense under Roman), actually the highest scoring offense in PPG for a decade or more until Allen and company wrecked that the last two years. Also, if we didn't get out to a lead and had to try and play from behind, it was game over. Edited June 1, 2022 by Big Turk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 1 hour ago, Gugny said: I agree that they both sucked. The fact remains that the Bills had that TEN game won and RJ was the QB who played. Was he good? NO. But he did enough to have the Bills on top when the offense left the field for the last time. And there's no way you can really believe that RJ was the worst starter in the past 40 years. Collins, Flutie, Losman, Edwards, Taylor, PETERMAN ... common man. RJ was absolutely horrible in that game. 10 completions, 6 sacks, 3 fumbles. He was the reason that the Titans were able to be close enough to steal the game on a freak play. Losman was awful---and he was better than RJ. Same for Edwards. 1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said: I don't know why anyone woyuld want either one of them. I would certainly agree that Flutie utilized his skill set better than Johnson did; however, much of the 21-7 record under Flutie was due to the Bills having one of the best defenses (particularly the 1998-1999 team) and best running games in the NFL. For every 2 decent games Flutie had, he had one abysmal game. With he same team, the Bills had a much different result with RJ at QB. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said: RJ was absolutely horrible in that game. 10 completions, 6 sacks, 3 fumbles. He was the reason that the Titans were able to be close enough to steal the game on a freak play. Losman was awful---and he was better than RJ. Same for Edwards. With he same team, the Bills had a much different result with RJ at QB. absolutely. i'm going completely off the top of my head, but that year rj started and was 0-3. when flutie took over the same team, he won the next 4 games. they included miami and the undefeated jags. i was living in boston at that time, and pats fan were more interested in the bills than their own team. like flutie or not, he was the reason they were competitive and the reason any really cared about the bills that year. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Big Turk said: He had been figured out by then and determined by DC's to be a one trick pony. Take away his one trick and he struggled. Never found another trick to make them pay. No offense, but that’s a lazy evaluation of him that completely ignores the real world context of what that 49ers teams was that last year, which was a bottom 5 roster with the worst HC in football in Chip Kelly who already ruined the Eagles in his previous disaster as HC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 14 minutes ago, teef said: absolutely. i'm going completely off the top of my head, but that year rj started and was 0-3. when flutie took over the same team, he won the next 4 games. they included miami and the undefeated jags. i was living in boston at that time, and pats fan were more interested in the bills than their own team. like flutie or not, he was the reason they were competitive and the reason any really cared about the bills that year. Et tu? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted June 1, 2022 Author Share Posted June 1, 2022 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: No offense, but that’s a lazy evaluation of him that completely ignores the real world context of what that 49ers teams was that last year, which was a bottom 5 roster with the worst HC in football in Chip Kelly who already ruined the Eagles in his previous disaster as HC. 12-4 -> 8-8 -> 2-6 -> 1-10 Progressively worse over 4 years, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out although you want to try and make it seem like there is a whole lot more going on. I am looking at 4 years, not a single season. Regardless of what Allen had around him, do you ever think he would go 3-16 over a 19 game stretch? Never. Edited June 1, 2022 by Big Turk 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 10 minutes ago, Big Turk said: 12-4 -> 8-8 -> 2-6 -> 1-10 Progressively worse over 4 years, doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out although you want to try and make it seem like there is a whole lot more going on. I am looking at 4 years, not a single season. Regardless of what Allen had around him, do you ever think he would go 3-16 over a 19 game stretch? Never. Did you look at the massive loss of talent over those years, maybe the biggest loss of talent for a young team in a short span in NFL history? They lost every single one of their best players on defense and offense over that span to shocking early retirements, injuries, free agency, trades and legal problems. They also loss Harbaugh who knew how to use Kap and replaced him with the worst HC in NFL. Not to mention, the locker room had been turning on Harbaugh his last 2 seasons in SF. Again, you’re just looking at a win-loss record and making assumptions without the context of the facts. When they went to the SB, the team was young and looked setup to be a top team for years to come. Then they started losing all those players and in Kaps last year had easily a bottom 5 roster in the NFL and the worst HC. Not trying to be a jerk here, but your completely missing the context of what was going on with the 49ers in the next few years after the SB loss to the Ravens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teef Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 29 minutes ago, Gugny said: Et tu? i mean...even if someone didn't like flutie personally, (which is kinda strange) so bit it, but i don't know how anyone can argue that rj was better for the team. flutie just ran the offense better. he certainly wasn't a permanent solution, but that year he was the best solution. flutie didn't divide the locker room...terrible ownership did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 Just now, teef said: i mean...even if someone didn't like flutie personally, (which is kinda strange) so bit it, but i don't know how anyone can argue that rj was better for the team. flutie just ran the offense better. he certainly wasn't a permanent solution, but that year he was the best solution. flutie didn't divide the locker room...terrible ownership did. You and I see eye to eye on most things that come up here. This is definitely not one of them. But I do agree re: Ralph. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted June 1, 2022 Author Share Posted June 1, 2022 29 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said: Did you look at the massive loss of talent over those years, maybe the biggest loss of talent for a young team in a short span in NFL history? They lost every single one of their best players on defense and offense over that span to shocking early retirements, injuries, free agency, trades and legal problems. They also loss Harbaugh who knew how to use Kap and replaced him with the worst HC in NFL. Not to mention, the locker room had been turning on Harbaugh his last 2 seasons in SF. Again, you’re just looking at a win-loss record and making assumptions without the context of the facts. When they went to the SB, the team was young and looked setup to be a top team for years to come. Then they started losing all those players and in Kaps last year had easily a bottom 5 roster in the NFL and the worst HC. Not trying to be a jerk here, but your completely missing the context of what was going on with the 49ers in the next few years after the SB loss to the Ravens. You didn't answer the question. Do you think Allen would ever go 3-16 regardless of what talent was around him? He wouldn't because he is an elite QB that would make others around him better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 1 hour ago, teef said: absolutely. i'm going completely off the top of my head, but that year rj started and was 0-3. when flutie took over the same team, he won the next 4 games. they included miami and the undefeated jags. i was living in boston at that time, and pats fan were more interested in the bills than their own team. like flutie or not, he was the reason they were competitive and the reason any really cared about the bills that year. Detractors ignore that he was on an incentive based contract and he hit every incentive including all of the Unlikely to be hit ones. He was also told that he was going to be able to compete for starting QB (which is why he signed that contract) and then Rob Johnson was signed (some just like big johnsons) and was made starter and previously he had 1 start with Jacksonville. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airseven Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 Kaepernick isn't good enough to be worth the distraction. He cashed in on his choices years ago. Good for him. Now go away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Big Turk said: You didn't answer the question. Do you think Allen would ever go 3-16 regardless of what talent was around him? He wouldn't because he is an elite QB that would make others around him better. Who said Kap was elite? You just compared him to one of the best QBs in the NFL. What does that have to do with anything? That’s like saying well if he wasn't as good as Aaron Rodgers is then he must not be any good at all. But, to answer your question…I suggest you maybe go look at the Houston Texans where Watson had a phenomenal season, MVP level stats, and they still only won like 3 games. Or look at all the seasons the Saints missed the playoffs while Brees was throwing for 5000 yards. Or all the time the Falcons missed the playoffs with that potent offense. Or how bad the Lions were despite having Stafford. So yes, if you completely stripped our defense of all its good players and stripped the offense of all its good players, Allen wouldn’t win many games either. Edited June 1, 2022 by Alphadawg7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boater Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 16 hours ago, Gugny said: I don't recall anyone ever saying Kaepernick divided the locker room in San Francisco. Flutie? He's a little self-serving a-hole and always has been. I'm interested to know why you made your comment. You may have a point on "the locker room" ...I was thinking about the fan base being divided. Seems half the fan base is OK with Kape, and the other half is repulsed. Likewise, fans seem to have a love him or hate him relationship with Flutie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 Just now, boater said: You may have a point on "the locker room" ...I was thinking about the fan base being divided. Seems half the fan base is OK with Kape, and the other half is repulsed. Likewise, fans seem to have a love him or hate him relationship with Flutie. I agree with this. Both QBs were definitely polarizing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiderweb Posted June 1, 2022 Share Posted June 1, 2022 4 hours ago, billsfan1959 said: That's like saying your prom date wasn't the ugliest girl in the class... Indeed... 4 hours ago, teef said: how so? the guy was an absolutely terrible leader. great athlete, lousy qb. In sucking.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic_Bills_Fan Posted June 2, 2022 Share Posted June 2, 2022 On 5/31/2022 at 3:54 PM, Alphadawg7 said: You can’t give all the credit to the defense and O Line for the SB run then give all the blame to Kap on the 2-10 season. That 2-10 season the Niners had maybe the largest loss of talent for any team in NFL history over the previous 2 seasons. Every single good player on both offense and defense for the SB year was basically gone due to early surprise retirements, injuries, free agency, trades, and suspensions. Not to mention the massive downgrade at HC. No offense, you either don’t really know enough of the details here to have an accurate opinion or you’re just ignoring facts. Either way, giving all the credit to his team, then ignoring the fact that whole team and HC were gone to just blame it all on Kap is pointless and totally contradictory statements. Even worse was that Kap wasn’t even playing that bad in that last season considering that team was one of the worst rosters in the league with the worst coaching in the NFL that year. Im not saying he’s gonna be good or bad, but he does deserve an opportunity to show what he might be capable of. And too many people who don’t know enough about the facts of his years in SF keep painting overly exaggerated accounts of him and those teams. I don’t think kaep’s injuries get talked about enough. He had thumb and knee surgery and lost like 75 pounds in the offseason. I think 2017 kaep would’ve been much worse than 2016 kaep but we will never know 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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