Movin The Chains is in the process of evaluating the offensive lines these two weeks

[hondo in seattle]

22 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

How can that be? I read right here our OLine sucks and is nearly everybody’s biggest concern and fear.

We have such a knowledgeable group here. 🤦‍♂️

 

I don't know how many folks have said our OLine sucks.  But lots of people, myself included, have concerns about our OL.  And why shouldn't we?  There were games last year where Singletary had no holes to run through.  And, more importantly, there were many times where Josh was under instant siege and scrambling to make something out of nothing.  His worse statistical games came when the OL played poorly.

 

I'm glad the Movin the Chains guys are predicting improvement this year.  They're legit football guys and may be right - I hope they are.  But as an old fan, I've heard experts make optimistic predictions about the Bills too many times to count.  And too often they've been wrong.  

 

While hope springs eternal, I won't truly believe the OL is better until I see it with my own eyes.  That doesn't mean I have a low football IQ.  It just means I temper my optimism with caution.

 

 

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

11 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Yes the 5 man OL is a position group but that is not how blocking either in the run game or the pass game works.  Hell I even left out the WR's blocking in the run game.  TE's are an extension of the OL.  

That said, there is no doubt the 5 starters that finished 2021 were far superior than the 5 that started game 1.  Is that because those 5 are the best talents or did they have some chemistry that just clicked.  I'd say it as probably a bit of both.  Brown at RT moving Williams inside solidified the right side. Did Bates play well because Dawkins and Morse were playing their best football?  Or is Bates just the best option at OG?  Will be interesting to see. 

Good Questions and philosophically I agree with you 100%.  I played and coached football for my sons.  First at flag which was a blast as we were in a highly competitive league, and then at youth tackle ball.  
 

Good blocking WR’s are a must when you run the ball.  My comments were just regarding the analysis show.  I do always appreciate you’re POV.

[ganesh]

On 5/22/2022 at 7:05 PM, Chandler#81 said:

How can that be? I read right here our OLine sucks and is nearly everybody’s biggest concern and fear.

We have such a knowledgeable group here. 🤦‍♂️

Can they run the football effectively between the tackles

[Paul Costa]

On 5/22/2022 at 12:10 PM, Ethan in Portland said:

The OL story will be very intriguing. I've added TEs and RBs for the role they play in run/pass blocking.

 

Dawkins was a liability for the first 2/3rd's of 2021 and then he played the best football of his career after coming back from second COVID infection. He looked like an All-Pro late last year. 

Morse has never lived up to his contract but he too played his best football in a Bills uniform last year. 

Brown was very good in run blocking but was just shy of a liability in pass blocking.  They really need him to improve in year 2 because the swing OT spot is a mess.

Two schools on Bates. He is that good which begs why the hell did it take so long to get him in the lineup? Or he is not that good and he will regress back to being a career backup. 

Saffold looks like a solid signing. Should be very good in a more balanced offense that runs the ball a bit more.  Hopefully he is good enough in pass protection.

Interior depth is a massive question mark. They have bodies that have played in several games in Ford and Boettger but both of these guys will have trouble even making the roster.

As above swing tackle is a mess, but Quessenberry has some experience and offers an ability to play inside if needed.  Odd story last year. Almost like boom or bust. Plays well the majority if the time but then gives up 17 sacks. Another year removed from his cancer diagnosis and a new OL coach may be the key to him taking another step forward and pushing for a starting role.  Doyle will only make the roster for use in the heavy TE sets. I'd prefer they keep him and get rid of Sweeney as the third TE.

And as for TE, Knox and Howard are just average in blocking. Maybe Knox gets a little better. Knox is a star ready to dominate this year in the pass game, so whatever he brings as a blocker is just added bonus. 

 

Two additional notes. Singletary and Moss are exceptional pass blockers. I've rewatched most of the games from last season and they are both excellent at finding the free rusher or where they need to help out. And lastly, my annual Gilliam crusade. This guy does nothing well and on a team that uses 2 or more spots solely for special teams and a roster this deep, he has to go. Keeping him hurts the team depth somewhere else simply by taking up a roster spot better suited for WR, DL, or OL.

Great point about both RB’s being excellent in pass pro. Very underrated aspect of our offense.

[In Summary]

I feel that the IOL sees an average commitment in resources because part of the protection scheme is to simply allow Josh to escape or roll out.  Hold your block for 2.5 seconds and call it good.  

[Chandler#81]

4 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I don't know how many folks have said our OLine sucks.  But lots of people, myself included, have concerns about our OL.  And why shouldn't we?  There were games last year where Singletary had no holes to run through.  And, more importantly, there were many times where Josh was under instant siege and scrambling to make something out of nothing.  His worse statistical games came when the OL played poorly.

 

I'm glad the Movin the Chains guys are predicting improvement this year.  They're legit football guys and may be right - I hope they are.  But as an old fan, I've heard experts make optimistic predictions about the Bills too many times to count.  And too often they've been wrong.  

 

While hope springs eternal, I won't truly believe the OL is better until I see it with my own eyes.  That doesn't mean I have a low football IQ.  It just means I temper my optimism with caution.

 

 

 

 

hondo, Every team gets beat by a quick pass or run rush on occasion. They pay the other guys well, too.

[billybrew1]

On 5/22/2022 at 5:32 AM, machine gun kelly said:

Hey Guys:

 

I found this topic interesting.  The Movin the Chains guys are taking a division a day and rating the offensive lines across the league.  Now they put in so much analysis on additions, substitutions, losses, number of snaps, sacks all allowed, penalties, continuity, and depth (they had so many categories I may have missed some so for the guys who listen to this show live or on demand, feel free to add any categories Mills and Pat chose).  This is not my list, nor am I asking you you’re personal choices to add, but feel free to chine in however you like.  They do this 20 pt.  analysis and assign a rating based on the data above.  I find it interesting, and once they get done with the line, they move onto every other position group.  In previous years, our line was 10th, DB’s 2nd, QB’s 2nd, etc.

 

Ok, I’ll put down what I wrote, but I didn’t have the opportunity to listen Friday as that was the AFCW, so I only have the first three so far.  They haven’t touched the NFC yet, so that should be this week.

 

(out of a perfect score of 20)

 

AFCE - Monday

Bills 17 - note they included data from Saffold and others coming from another team.

Pats 11

Jets 11

Phins 10

 

AFCN - Tuesday

Ravens 14, but if injuries improve could move up to 16-17

Bengals 13 due to their additions and deletions.  Please not they evaluate a players last year data even if on another team.  
Steelers 13

Browns 16

 

AFCS - Thursday

Texans 15

Indy 16

Jax 14 

TN 13

AFCW

Chiefs 19 - tops in the AFC.

Chargers 14

Broncos 16

Raiders 15

 

AFCW was Friday, but the on demand is not loaded into the App yet.  I will add to this list as they are done each day.  If they are the same in order from last year, they move onto QB’s next historically, then WR’s TE’s and RB’s.  They they start on the defense.  Each group is evaluated based on their jobs so they define each category and analysis  each day so people can follow along.

 

So as if three divisions, they have rated the Bills the best at this point.  They teased the Chiefs would be rated high.  With this desert of post draft, prior to camp, I enjoy their analysis and there is really very subjective like or dislike, but they compare apples to apples  in how they evaluate each team.  They pointed out there were 3 O Lineman with over 1000 snaps on the Bills line.

 

All of these shows are maintained on on demand section on app for a few days so I think they’ve kept all of them since Monday.  Note, Wed. Mills was off so they don’t do a rating day when both Mills and Pat aren’t there.  Enjoy listening to them directly, and don’t take my word for it.

 

I hope you like the topic.  They know the Bills will be a top 10 Line, but they force ranks 1-5 and we won’t know until they get through the whole league whether they consider us a top 5 line.  They were very complimentary of the continuity of Buffalo.  They also state who the coaches are meaning our line coach and asst line coach.

 

Enjoy and welcome feedback.  If you have Sirius, you’d enjoy this more if you listened to the shows.  You’ll miss out on the AFCE probably after today, and they have titles for each segment so you can skip the calls and athlete interviews.

 

Ok the AFCW show just dropped on Sirius rewind so now you have the whole list.  We are 2nd for the AFC.  They start the NFC today.  I’ll add as they go a,Ong if you guys like it.  If I hear from you guys you like this stuff, I’ll keep track of the other position groups for those that don’t have Sirius.  I keep Sirius only for the NFLR and specifically this show.  Between the positional group rankings, they are going to start the interpretation of plays and strategies where they help educate fans on jerk routes, rub plays, and so on.  They just discussed in detail the other day why Peyton Manning rarely was sacked as a player.  

Stupid ravens giving that LOT to the chefs…. I H❤️ Them!

[Ethan in Cleveland]

20 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

That for me is THE critical question. When you watch the last 6 games back Ryan Bates holds his own for sure, but he doesn't pop. The guy who does is Dion. Our OL turn around was as much about Dion finding his form than anything else IMO. And you are right to mention Morse. The Divisional Round game might have been his best in his entire Bills career. He was leaving it all out there in the stretch run whereas I have always felt until this point he has played a bit within himself as a Bill... maybe wary of another head injury, but always looked and felt like 80% of his best. Those last few games he played fearless. 

So why did you disagree with my post?  Seems like we both agree and I said as much about Dawkins.  Chandler hates me and my posts, but he is a moron.  Your posts are reasonable.  

[John from Riverside]

On 5/22/2022 at 8:42 AM, Mr. WEO said:

 

That's why they play the games.

And also why fans make statements that the offensive line sucks before they even take the field would that be fair?

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

So why did you disagree with my post?  Seems like we both agree and I said as much about Dawkins.  Chandler hates me and my posts, but he is a moron.  Your posts are reasonable.  

 

I agree on Dawkins, Morse and Bates. I disagree on Saffold (my view on that signing is well known but safe to say I am lower than you). I also disagree on Quessenbury. I actually think that is an upgrade in our swing tackle situation. He is a guy who you are always trying to upgrade if he is your starter but he has value as a backup. He is one of the better low key signings of the offseason for Buffalo IMO. I also think if healthy Ike is good interior depth too, though obviously achillies injury, offensive lineman, that is always a tough one so fair to say health is a question mark. If Ike isn't back to himself the interior depth worries me, especially with such a small sample size on Bates. If he struggles and you have nobody else to turn to it can hurt. 

[GreggTX]

How are we rated that high? Quessenberry is another Ty Nsehke. Brown and Bates would be backups on most rosters. Morse is a slice above average and both Saffold and Dawkins one more slice above that. All that considered, our OL is pretty average. This evaluation seems quite biased.

 

There were times last season when our RB's had no holes to run through, albeit with injuries. Allen was pressured more times than any other QB (185) and he was hurried way more than any other QB -- 95 times vs 76 for Hurts who was #2. The only significant upgrade was at LG and the RG position is even weaker than last year.

Edited May 24, 2022 by GreggTX

[nosejob]

Last year I don't think they had the original starting 5 for most of the season. I think Bates will be fine at RG and am thankful he'll be able to help work with Brown, who I Think will be just fine going forward. Morse, Bates and Brown pulling right I would bet to be huge. Bring back the counter tre. That was money with Thurman.

 

My concern is if Saffold gets hurt, Mitch gets concussed and or Brown gets nicked. We will be back to musical lineman again.

I'm hoping they found some gems in the UFDA pool. Alec Anderson may turn into a good guard. I actually read on Billswire that Tenuta's NFL comparison is Joe Thuney.

 

Cody Ford should have been turned into a draft pick.....like Darrien Kinnard.(sp)? I bet the oline is next offseason's big priority.

[eball]

First of all, I think Kirwan and Miller do a very in-depth job when they take on a “league-wide ranking” exercise such as this one.  It’s not fluff.  They also value OL play quite highly and have frequent guests/experts on their show on the topic.  If they believe the Bills have the 2nd best OL in the AFC it’s not a snap judgment.

 

I believe the overall discussion of the OL on this board, however, reinforces a couple of common tendencies among football fans in general:

 

1 - fans who tend to focus on “areas to improve” almost always bemoan the team’s OL play and don’t seem to take a big picture view (i.e., compared to the league); and

2 - fans tend to forget (or ignore) that every team in the league has issues with consistent OL play.

 

I bet if you visit the other 31 teams’ primary fan message boards you’ll find 31 fan bases who gripe and moan about their team’s OL.  It’s just what we as fans do.

 

I’m always an optimistic fan, but getting rid of Bobby Johnson and bringing in Beach Chairs is still the most important move the Bills have made for the offense this offseason.

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

I like Pat a lot more than Jim but they are a good listen.  I heard they had done the AFC East and I went and listed to it on demand.  I was somewhat surprised how well the Bills ranked.  Specifically in backups which I still think is weak.  Pat gives a lot of credit for snaps and starts of the backups with relative disregard for performance.   My takeaway is while I do think the Bills don't have good depth, not many teams do either.   In fact a lot of teams backups have little to zero NFL game experience.

[Mr. WEO]

8 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

And also why fans make statements that the offensive line sucks before they even take the field would that be fair?

 

True but sometimes the played games prove them correct.

[wjag]

I actually caught part of the show, quite accidentally.  I found their analysis was thorough for every team I heard.  They didn't just ole the Texans because, well they're the Texans.  Their stats struck me as uniform and detailed.

 

My belief was it took Dion nearly the whole season to return to form after covid.  We quickly forget that he was hospitalized and in serious condition for a while there.  When he did finally regain his footing, weight and stamina, things got better for the whole offense.

 

Moving Williams to guard was a curious move when it was made.  After all, he was the hero of the season before.  But it seemed to work.  And now he is gone.  We hardly knew ya.

 

Brown was a turnstile at tackle and got routinely beat.  If the line is moving forward this year, the RT spot must be improved upon.  Whether Brown is the answer or not will be interesting to see.

 

Saffold was hurt quite a bit last season for Tennessee.  I thought it was a curious signing given that.  If he can hold down a guard spot, that might solve one of the guard positions.

 

Not sure what to make of the other guard spot.  Lots of camp bodies in there for that spot.  Is it Boettger, Bates, Q, The irreparable Cody Ford, other?  

 

Morse survived last year relatively ding free.  Still makes me nervous about his concussion history.  Especially being in the middle where the big boys play.  With the recently benched, bitter and butt-hurt Feliciano departure, seems like the cupboard is thin in the middle. 

 

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by wjag

[Ethan in Cleveland]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I agree on Dawkins, Morse and Bates. I disagree on Saffold (my view on that signing is well known but safe to say I am lower than you). I also disagree on Quessenbury. I actually think that is an upgrade in our swing tackle situation. He is a guy who you are always trying to upgrade if he is your starter but he has value as a backup. He is one of the better low key signings of the offseason for Buffalo IMO. I also think if healthy Ike is good interior depth too, though obviously achillies injury, offensive lineman, that is always a tough one so fair to say health is a question mark. If Ike isn't back to himself the interior depth worries me, especially with such a small sample size on Bates. If he struggles and you have nobody else to turn to it can hurt. 

All good and reasonable points. I'm higher on Saffold and you are higher on Boettger. 

I like way way you worded Quessenbury -  a guy you want to upgrade if he is the starter. 

[SoCal Deek]

This group succeeds or fails with the new O Line coach…period. (With the exception of Saffold, it’s essentially the same unit from last year, so it’s gunna be pretty easy to tell if I’m right.)

[Don Otreply]

51 minutes ago, eball said:

First of all, I think Kirwan and Miller do a very in-depth job when they take on a “league-wide ranking” exercise such as this one.  It’s not fluff.  They also value OL play quite highly and have frequent guests/experts on their show on the topic.  If they believe the Bills have the 2nd best OL in the AFC it’s not a snap judgment.

 

I believe the overall discussion of the OL on this board, however, reinforces a couple of common tendencies among football fans in general:

 

1 - fans who tend to focus on “areas to improve” almost always bemoan the team’s OL play and don’t seem to take a big picture view (i.e., compared to the league); and

2 - fans tend to forget (or ignore) that every team in the league has issues with consistent OL play.

 

I bet if you visit the other 31 teams’ primary fan message boards you’ll find 31 fan bases who gripe and moan about their team’s OL.  It’s just what we as fans do.

 

I’m always an optimistic fan, but getting rid of Bobby Johnson and bringing in Beach Chairs is still the most important move the Bills have made for the offense this offseason.

 

 

You’re correct, When compared to all the other O lines, is the part those that are constantly bemoaning our O line don’t appear to take into consideration, that and the league as a whole has had a bit of a dearth of average to above average O line guys for a long time, it’s a league wide problem, stemming from lack of development in the college ranks, good ones aren’t growing on trees, and teams that have two or three good starters aren’t letting them go if they can help it,  making the argument in a vacuum is not particularly useful, and as you stated, the big picture needs to be included in the analysis, 

 

Go Bills!!!

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

True but sometimes the played games prove them correct.

Which played games, earlier or later in the season? Or are we just picking the ones that suit our arguments 😁👍