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Titans OT Taylor Lewan says players pay PFF for higher grades


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12 hours ago, Bferra13 said:

Proof? Or this is pretty much libel.

 

I highly doubt Wegmans or Forbes is worrying about going after Joe Nobody from randominternetforum.com for a libelous belief.

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3 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

So according to Lewan, nobody in the know pays any attention to the the PFF ratings, yet some players are willing to kick in 50K to get higher ratings.

 

Is there a contradiction there?


this is how people argue now. With zero logic.  

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On 5/15/2022 at 11:10 AM, Einstein said:

“[PFF] is a complete liability, it’s a lie,” says Lewan in the video. “Do you know there’s NFL football players who go and pay $50,000 a year to PFF so their numbers are inflated?”

 

https://atozsports.com/nashville/taylor-lewan-makes-statement-that-completely-discredits-pro-football-focus/


LOL I think he’s just BS’ing here but PFF grades are completely arbitrary.   That’s the problem with “grades.” 
 

In theory a player could definitely pay off one of the final PFF graders to inflate his numbers and we would never know.  I’m thinking that PFF wouldn’t jeopardize the relationships they have with teams by taking bribes but you never know

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Well, according to PFF Lewan has been a pretty solid starter (roughly Dion Dawkins quality) most of his career, with at least one elite season in 2016, which is kind of a long time ago. I can’t say I spend my weekends isolating Lewan on the All 22 feed, but it seems that PFF has pretty well captured how most of the smart NFL people (GMs included) view his career performance?

Or maybe his own contribution$ need to keep pace with inflation…

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On 5/15/2022 at 10:49 AM, Mr. WEO said:


 

why would anyone need to “despise” something like PFF?

 

how is it possible to be that worked up over it?

 

weird

because if PFF takes bribes to boost the players ratings it is a fraud masquerading as vital intel on players play, talent, and worth.

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On 5/15/2022 at 11:10 AM, Einstein said:

“[PFF] is a complete liability, it’s a lie,” says Lewan in the video. “Do you know there’s NFL football players who go and pay $50,000 a year to PFF so their numbers are inflated?”

 

https://atozsports.com/nashville/taylor-lewan-makes-statement-that-completely-discredits-pro-football-focus/

Duck Dodgers thinks this is a bad investment.

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On 5/15/2022 at 12:51 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

For someone concerned about the definition of words, I don't think "insidious plot" is a usual synonym for "apparent goal".

 

 

Claiming that a company's apparent goal is to be the best at what they do.............as if that is a possible indication that they are unscrupulous.........is grasping for straws.

 

And that is how you were attempting to frame it.

 

Because you don't think the grades they give are "fair".

 

But it might ease yours and the other PFF "despiser's" minds if you remembered that all individual player stats are flawed in team sports.

 

Not sure how this got lost on some of you..........but every play in a football game has an immense amount of potential outcomes depending on how each of the 22 players on the field does their job.

 

But........in general........if a QB throws 35 TD passes he played well.........even if 5 of them had been gimmes on blown coverages on the first read......5 of them had been bad reads thrown into tight coverage that worked out anyway.........and 2 of them were tipped by a defender and landed in the hands of a receiver who wasn't even the target.

 

But all hard stats look the same in the box score.  

 

It's not necessarily different with grading the play of offensive lineman.........maybe some of the plays are taken out of context like Wood and Incognito yucked it up about..........but when you are being graded on hundreds to over 1,000 snaps played in a season........ the data probably is likely to be fairly representative.

 

If you follow other sports where analytics are a couple steps ahead of the NFL at this point........this concept is probably easier to understand.

 

 

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6 hours ago, JohnNord said:

LOL I think he’s just BS’ing here but PFF grades are completely arbitrary.   That’s the problem with “grades.” 
 

In theory a player could definitely pay off one of the final PFF graders to inflate his numbers and we would never know.  I’m thinking that PFF wouldn’t jeopardize the relationships they have with teams by taking bribes but you never know

 

I don't necessarily disagree with you,  but PFF asserts that to the contrary, their grades are objective and consistent

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15 hours ago, Billy Claude said:

So according to Lewan, nobody in the know pays any attention to the the PFF ratings, yet some players are willing to kick in 50K to get higher ratings.

 

Is there a contradiction there?

Logically that means that those that pay are not "in the know".  Or perhaps they are "in the know" but are trying to fool those who are not.

 

My head hurts.

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This shows how important PFF has become.  If there are rumors of $50,000 bribes, somebody is taking PFF seriously.

 

I've heard that all 32 teams subscribe to PFF.  I've also heard that GMs and player agents will both use PFF stats if they support their side.


As much as many of us mock PFF, it's relevant if not always accurate.  

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On 5/15/2022 at 7:45 PM, LeGOATski said:

You're not wrong, but there have been blatant inconsistencies pointed out to PFF before and they tend to close ranks when that happens.

 

They've always been great for raw stats and terrible for grades. No respectable football organization would put any value in their grades. If a player is paying PFF to bump their grade, it's so that they look better to the media. Maybe it's worth it for their career beyond football. But they're not gonna fool a football expert with it.

 

This is probably the closest to the reality, assuming Lewan isn't completely talking out of his a$$.

 

I.E. I could see the "publicity" portion of PFF working with players - or more specifically, their agents -  to increase a player's inclusion in Twitter polls, comments on line and other media, etc. While I doubt teams use the grading as any basis for retention or pay, the agents certainly use it in the court of public opinion which can influence the team to some degree.

 

This wouldn't result in any change to the objective data provided to teams - or even really to the public. It might influence how certain data is "evaluated" for the somewhat more subjective grades. Such as an aggressive, tight pass vs a "near-interception."

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Posted (edited)
On 5/16/2022 at 2:40 AM, Shaw66 said:

Wood may have said something about it, too, but I'm sure the occasion I recall it was Williams.  Frankly, probably every offensive and defensive lineman has had the same reaction. 

   

 

Yes, so did Chip Kelly.

 

Then PFF asked him to check their grades, he agreed to watch the tapes of one game and compare them to the PFF grades and he came backs surprised, saying they'd pretty much nailed it.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dc-sports-bog/wp/2017/09/20/__trashed/

 

It's happened several times.

 

Film isn't some kind of opaque thing that's wildly difficult to understand, it just isn't. If it were, teams wouldn't study opponent film. They wouldn't use it to diagnose what they might do in various situations because it would just be too difficult to understand.

 

There's a reason that teams watch opponent film in incredibly large quantities ... even though they don't know what the coaches specifically said in the meeting rooms about the responsibilities of each player were on every play. Somehow they find extreme value in watching this tape, even without that crucial information.

 

And I bet that if you looked back, you'd find that Eric Wood and Williams both did a ton of work watching opponent film and probably learned a ton. Even not knowing the opponent's calls.

Edited by Thurman#1
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On 5/16/2022 at 2:51 AM, Shaw66 said:

One thing that is fundamentally wrong is that PFF gives every player is on a real grade on every play - an A or a B or a number, however they do it.  In fact, on a lot of plays a lineman has only two grades - pass or fail.  Even though you may get a better grade than I because you pancake a guy and I just block him, from the team's point of view, it makes no difference, either way, our man was taken out of the play. 

 

You may get a better grade because you block a guy completely to the end of the play while another defensive player gets to the quarterback, while I slipped off my guy and let him pressure the QB as I moved over to double the guy who made the tackle on your play.  

 

PFF just can't know what coaches have asked the players to do.

 

 

It's not really true ... that they give every player a real grade on each play.

 

They watch every play. But they are perfectly free to not grade performance on a play where it's not clear whether the job was done. 

 

"YOU DON’T KNOW THE PLAY CALL?

 

"We are certainly not in the huddle, but we are grading what a player attempts to do on a given play. While football is extremely nuanced regarding the preparation and adjustments that go into each play call, once the ball is snapped, most players are clear in what they’re trying to accomplish on each play, and we evaluate accordingly. Of course, there are always some gray areas in football. Plays in which there is a clear question mark regarding assignment, we can defer to a “0” grade and not guess as to which player is right or wrong. These plays are few and far between and since we are grading every snap, missing out on a handful throughout the year should not affect player evaluations. Examples of potential gray areas include coverage busts, quarterback/wide receiver miscommunications and missed blocking assignments."

 

https://www.pff.com/grades

 

And I totally disagree that teams would only give pass/fail grades to players. There are plenty of times when player performance that goes beyond adequate can make huge differences in result for the team. When a run-blocking guard knocks his guy out of the play and then keeps going downfield to make another good block downfield, for instance. A team wouldn't say in that case, "Well, it's only a pass grade to us. His excellent performance there didn't really make any difference to us from the team's point of view."

 

 

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It's not really true ... that they give every player a real grade on each play.

 

They watch every play. But they are perfectly free to not grade performance on a play where it's not clear whether the job was done. 

 

"YOU DON’T KNOW THE PLAY CALL?

 

"We are certainly not in the huddle, but we are grading what a player attempts to do on a given play. While football is extremely nuanced regarding the preparation and adjustments that go into each play call, once the ball is snapped, most players are clear in what they’re trying to accomplish on each play, and we evaluate accordingly. Of course, there are always some gray areas in football. Plays in which there is a clear question mark regarding assignment, we can defer to a “0” grade and not guess as to which player is right or wrong. These plays are few and far between and since we are grading every snap, missing out on a handful throughout the year should not affect player evaluations. Examples of potential gray areas include coverage busts, quarterback/wide receiver miscommunications and missed blocking assignments."

 

https://www.pff.com/grades

 

And I totally disagree that teams would only give pass/fail grades to players. There are plenty of times when player performance that goes beyond adequate can make huge differences in result for the team. When a run-blocking guard knocks his guy out of the play and then keeps going downfield to make another good block downfield, for instance. A team wouldn't say in that case, "Well, it's only a pass grade to us. His excellent performance there didn't really make any difference to us from the team's point of view."

 

 

 

To the above, I think the point is that where OL and DL assignments are involved, what the player is clearly attempting to do on every play may, in fact, not be his assignment and may result from the whiff of the guy next to him. 

 

Downfield, it's much easier to define what a guy is supposed to be doing.

Edited by Beck Water
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If this is true could Collinsworth and Co. be facing a major lawsuit from the league? I know every franchise pays for their data, if that data can be artificially manipulated for cash they could be taking on the full force of the NFL in court. 

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