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2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm pretty sure if we thought McKenzie could play outside, we'd have tried him there.

 

Buff rumblings piece on Crowder

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2022/3/22/22990228/2022-free-agent-all-22-analysis-wr-jamison-crowder

 

I was told Shakir did play all over the field in college.  FWIW Diggs was scouted and pigeonholed as a slot guy in the NFL.

 

The thing about putting Davis on the field is his blocking.   Can Shakir block?

 

Shakir didn't demonstrate much blocking on tape but he did play all over in college. I didn't watch Diggs in college so can't comment. But the first time I saw him play in the NFL as a rookie I called him as a stud. I will hold my hands up (as I always do when I get a call wrong) if Shakir ends up as a successful NFL outside receiver. But I remain sceptical until I see it.

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14 hours ago, BillsFanForever19 said:

 

As I stated in my previous post, Beane himself said on One Bills Drive that he envisions Shakir as the first man up at outside or inside.

 

It's the same situation as last season with the changes being Davis moves into Sanders spot. Crowder moves into Beasley's spot. Shakir moves into Davis' spot. Davis did that role since his Rookie season and I have faith in Shakir to be able to hold it down.

 

As I also stated in a previous post, Crowder (though undersized) has played outside in the past. So maybe they play with moving him to the Outside with Shakir in the Slot.

 

Either way, I don't see it as being as big of a thing as many posters do. It's not so different from the year before. And when you add in the extra receiving abilities of O.J. Howard from the TE position and James Cook from the RB position, I see us in better shape than we've probably ever been.

 

For a guy that went in the 5th round  , a lot of teams really liked Shakir, seems like he would have been drafted sooner.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

And if Aaron Donald went down they would not have anything close to a replacement. Or Jalen Ramsey. Etc. That's what I mean when I say building an NFL roster is a game of whack a mole. Any problem you solve by spending draft or salary capital creates another problem somewhere else. It's true that the outside WR depth on the Bills is weaker than the depth at some other position groups. Even the best rosters in the NFL have that problem somewhere. Case in point the Bills arguably have the best roster in the NFL and here we are talking about it not being deep enough. It's a really pointless conversation IMO.

 

Agree to disagree.  
 

We’re a passing team first and foremost.  We’re one of the few teams in the league that can win with the pass regardless of how the defense and ST perform.  If injuries derail our WR unit we can still win a super bowl….. as long as we have depth.  The one unit we don’t want to play whack a mole with is WR imo.  It’s the one position we should be able to accumulate good depth at a decent price tag.  The best available depth players would LOVE to play with Josh Allen.  One ST player doesn’t seem like a smart trade off to me.  

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1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'm still holding out a glimmer of hope that they add Julio Jones to put them back in a situation where they have 3 legit boundary receivers.

 

Last I saw a couple weeks ago they were tied with New England at +500 for the second best odds to sign Julio ( Tampa was +400).    The Bills then didn't select a boundary receiver in the draft.    The Bills were reported to have interest and despite the complaining to the contrary from folks who think they know exactly what Beane is thinking based off moves that HAVEN'T been made........and despite those folks ending up with egg on their faces over and over............it makes all the sense in the world that they would like to have a player like Julio if the price is right.

 

New-Odds-Show-Chances-Julio-Jones-Ends-U

 

I don't think it has even been mentioned here but Jarvis Landry finally came off the board to the Saints yesterday for a deal that "could be worth up to $6M"..........which means it's less but with incentives.

 

Julio is coming off a down season..........statistically he's already a HOF'er if his career ended today........but maybe he saw how the spotlight really elevated the perception of OBJ and maybe he wants a piece of that and is willing to take a modest 1 year deal like Landry to get it done.

 

In a 17 game season having a 3rd legit 600-1,000 yard boundary option behind Diggs and Davis is far from overkill.   Let's not forget how beat up they got at the position in 2020.    2 ain't enough.

Pretty sure Beane stated in his post draft presser they are still interested in depth at WR outside…. 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, NewEra said:

We’re one of the few teams in the league that can win with the pass regardless of how the defense and ST perform

 

I too have tried to forget about the divisional game. But it happened. And it makes this a really difficult point to argue.

 

12 minutes ago, NewEra said:

The one unit we don’t want to play whack a mole with is WR imo.  It’s the one position we should be able to accumulate good depth at a decent price tag.

 

Well at slot WR we're one of the deepest in the league. The offense as a whole has quite a bit of depth. We're talking about one specific role on one side of the field. It really isn't a big deal.

 

8 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Pretty sure Beane stated in his post draft presser they are still interested in depth at WR outside…. 

 

Yeah I think it is possible they will still add someone. Or maybe keep Emmanuel Sanders on speed dial in a break in case of emergency situation. I'm sure they have contingencies built in other than Jake Kumerow. I'm not remotely worried about it.

 

Edited by HappyDays
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Posted (edited)
27 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I too have tried to forget about the divisional game. But it happened. And it makes this a really difficult point to argue.

 

 

Well at slot WR we're one of the deepest in the league. The offense as a whole has quite a bit of depth. We're talking about one specific role on one side of the field. It really isn't a big deal.

 

 

Yeah I think it is possible they will still add someone. Or maybe keep Emmanuel Sanders on speed dial in a break in case of emergency situation. I'm sure they have contingencies built in other than Jake Kumerow. I'm not remotely worried about it.

 

Gotcha.  One game >> All.

 

Who cares if we have 4 possible slot WRs…we only need 2-3.  we need more outside guys than inside guys and we don’t have that.  It doesn’t make too much sense tbh.  Why have 4 slot guys and 2 outside guys?
 

i disagree that it’s one specific role.  Ask the rams how important it was to have

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Buffalo Barbarian said:

 

For a guy that went in the 5th round  , a lot of teams really liked Shakir, seems like he would have been drafted sooner.

 

There were more than a couple of WRs that were taken before him that were a bit of a head scratcher. Personally, there wasn't a WR taken after Skyy Moore that I'd have taken over Shakir. And I think when 15 guys went in the first 3 Rounds - it created a bit of a drop for some of the others after because most teams looking for a WR already addressed it.

Edited by BillsFanForever19
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2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm pretty sure if we thought McKenzie could play outside, we'd have tried him there.

 

Buff rumblings piece on Crowder

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2022/3/22/22990228/2022-free-agent-all-22-analysis-wr-jamison-crowder

 

I was told Shakir did play all over the field in college.  FWIW Diggs was scouted and pigeonholed as a slot guy in the NFL.

 

The thing about putting Davis on the field is his blocking.   Can Shakir block?

 

 

I've seen a few other people try to compare Diggs and Shakir because they are about the same height and had similar 40's at the combine.

 

And while they are the same height they are different body types..........Diggs is narrower and longer limbed........he has relatively long arms at 31"+ and 10" hands..........these are handy for getting off press.........but having a bigger catch radius downfield makes him more dangerous,  which is what really buys him more space.    

 

Teams tend to just give Diggs all the short stuff that he wants for fear of the bomb.

 

 If Shakir had to replace him outside.........I suspect defense's would squat on him and make him get off press and then prove he can beat them over the top.   

 

They might be the same height but they aren't the same guy.    

 

This wouldn't be the first time we've strained to try to justify how a talented slot guy could be a boundary option.

 

I remember the line of thinking when they had to replace Peerless Price with Josh Reed.    On paper Reed was only 1" shorter than Price and Price was a 4.55 40 guy not a burner.   Reed was the Belitnikoff winner at LSU and had a tremendous rookie season with the Bills from the slot.  A lot of what he did at LSU looked like Shakir.......excellent contested catches downfield.........running like a RB after the catch on short throws.

 

Bills tried to graduate him to WR2 in year 2.   

 

But putting him outside stretched his limits........he dropped a couple wide open deep balls and got the yips and was never the same.  

 

Sometimes just because it looks like a player *might* be able to do something on paper isn't a good reason to do it.

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4 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I'm still holding out a glimmer of hope that they add Julio Jones to put them back in a situation where they have 3 legit boundary receivers.

 

Last I saw a couple weeks ago they were tied with New England at +500 for the second best odds to sign Julio ( Tampa was +400).    The Bills then didn't select a boundary receiver in the draft.    The Bills were reported to have interest and despite the complaining to the contrary from folks who think they know exactly what Beane is thinking based off moves that HAVEN'T been made........and despite those folks ending up with egg on their faces over and over............it makes all the sense in the world that they would like to have a player like Julio if the price is right.

 

New-Odds-Show-Chances-Julio-Jones-Ends-U

 

I don't think it has even been mentioned here but Jarvis Landry finally came off the board to the Saints yesterday for a deal that "could be worth up to $6M"..........which means it's less but with incentives.

 

Julio is coming off a down season..........statistically he's already a HOF'er if his career ended today........but maybe he saw how the spotlight really elevated the perception of OBJ and maybe he wants a piece of that and is willing to take a modest 1 year deal like Landry to get it done.

 

In a 17 game season having a 3rd legit 600-1,000 yard boundary option behind Diggs and Davis is far from overkill.   Let's not forget how beat up they got at the position in 2020.    2 ain't enough.

I thought of Julio Jones and TY Hilton.  The problem is I don't know if they'd be fine with a reduced role.  Will Fuller maybe?

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10 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

I've seen a few other people try to compare Diggs and Shakir because they are about the same height and had similar 40's at the combine.

 

And while they are the same height they are different body types..........Diggs is narrower and longer limbed........he has relatively long arms at 31"+ and 10" hands..........these are handy for getting off press.........but having a bigger catch radius downfield makes him more dangerous,  which is what really buys him more space.    

 

Teams tend to just give Diggs all the short stuff that he wants for fear of the bomb.

 

 If Shakir had to replace him outside.........I suspect defense's would squat on him and make him get off press and then prove he can beat them over the top.   

 

They might be the same height but they aren't the same guy.    

 

This wouldn't be the first time we've strained to try to justify how a talented slot guy could be a boundary option.

 

I remember the line of thinking when they had to replace Peerless Price with Josh Reed.    On paper Reed was only 1" shorter than Price and Price was a 4.55 40 guy not a burner.   Reed was the Belitnikoff winner at LSU and had a tremendous rookie season with the Bills from the slot.  A lot of what he did at LSU looked like Shakir.......excellent contested catches downfield.........running like a RB after the catch on short throws.

 

Bills tried to graduate him to WR2 in year 2.   

 

But putting him outside stretched his limits........he dropped a couple wide open deep balls and got the yips and was never the same.  

 

Sometimes just because it looks like a player *might* be able to do something on paper isn't a good reason to do it.

 

And that's fair.  I'm not sure long arms and hands are the primary way Diggs beats press man though.

 

He may not be able to play outside in the NFL, just making the point that Shakir did apparently play outside in college, and that he wouldn't be the only guy who was assessed as a slot receiver in the NFL but who succeeded in other roles, should he do so.

 

I myself would have liked and would still like us to do more at WR

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23 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

https://www.nfl.com/news/raiders-trade-bryan-edwards-to-wide-receiver-needy-falcons
 

Not sure this was an option for the Bills, but I’d have done this trade in a heart beat… really liked Edwards coming out of college, would be good depth and push Kumerow off the roster. 

 

Why waste draft picks when we could just sign Emmanuel Sanders or something? 

 

And why don't they do just that and replace Kumerow with Sanders? Because Sanders don't play special teams.

 

Unlike in Madden, Special Teams ability is a real thing valued in the real NFL.

 

 

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Just kind of looking at other team’s depth charts looking to see if there was a trade like this that could be replicated and a couple of guys stand out to me as extra. 
 

Tre’quan Smith NO-Former teammate of Gabe Davis at UCF, he can play anywhere, inside or outside. Good size and speed combination. With NO drafting Olave and signing Jarvis Landry, I am not sure where he plays. He can do a lot of things on the field and played for Joe Brady in NO. He has been hurt a bunch, but he is great depth at all spots. Marquez Callaway could be an option as well, but I think they hold on to him. 
 

Jalen Reagor Philly- I guess he give you some deep speed. That’s what he brings. Dude can use a change of scenery and could fit here as the deep speed option. With the acquisition of Brown, the emergence of Quez Watkins and signing Zach Pascal, not sure Reagor is long for that roster. 
 

Ofcourse there are the other change of scenery guys Denzel Mims and N’Keal Harrys of the world, but that’s in division so I am not sure. And those are lower level options, probably not any better than what we have. Maybe the Bucs want to move Breshard Perriman or Tyler Johnson? Perhaps Darius Slayton. But there are some bodies out there who could add depth and are probably had in an Edwards like trade, swap of picks. 

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1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

I thought of Julio Jones and TY Hilton.  The problem is I don't know if they'd be fine with a reduced role.  Will Fuller maybe?

 

What is the definition of a reduced role though?

 

Last season Davis and Sanders combined to average about 44 snaps each per game played.

 

That comes out to about 740 snaps each.

 

The last time Julio was healthy for a whole season he averaged 1.72 yards per snap on about 800 snaps on a bad Falcons team.

 

At 740 snaps that would project out to a ridiculous 1300 yards........only 5 WR's had over 1250 yards receiving in the NFL last year. :lol:

 

The odds of that happening are minuscule..........Jones has played less than 800 snaps the last two years combined.........so 500-600 snaps might be his max at this point.

 

He might still be able to put up really nice numbers on a limited snap count...........while raising his profile in the court of public opinion(like OBJ did with the Rams) by helping an exciting, interesting team to win a SB in a town that is rabid about pro football.

 

As good as Julio has been his career has been mostly about numbers put up playing in a college football town.......... and not about the moments that make people remember you.    

 

The point is that there is A LOT of opportunity in this Bills offense.    And it's not like Gabe Davis is a first team All Pro........he had about 600 yards on about 800 snaps as a rookie and had some up and down performances last regular season.    Splitting snaps with Julio isn't out of the question or necessarily a bad idea for either of them.

 

I'm not as high on the Hilton idea but some of the same logic applies.........he's averaged just 566 snaps per season the last 4 years.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

Just kind of looking at other team’s depth charts looking to see if there was a trade like this that could be replicated and a couple of guys stand out to me as extra. 
 

Tre’quan Smith NO-Former teammate of Gabe Davis at UCF, he can play anywhere, inside or outside. Good size and speed combination. With NO drafting Olave and signing Jarvis Landry, I am not sure where he plays. He can do a lot of things on the field and played for Joe Brady in NO. He has been hurt a bunch, but he is great depth at all spots. Marquez Callaway could be an option as well, but I think they hold on to him. 
 

Jalen Reagor Philly- I guess he give you some deep speed. That’s what he brings. Dude can use a change of scenery and could fit here as the deep speed option. With the acquisition of Brown, the emergence of Quez Watkins and signing Zach Pascal, not sure Reagor is long for that roster. 
 

Ofcourse there are the other change of scenery guys Denzel Mims and N’Keal Harrys of the world, but that’s in division so I am not sure. And those are lower level options, probably not any better than what we have. Maybe the Bucs want to move Breshard Perriman or Tyler Johnson? Perhaps Darius Slayton. But there are some bodies out there who could add depth and are probably had in an Edwards like trade, swap of picks. 

 

 

I know you said Reagor.........but I was a big fan of Quez Watkins at Southern Miss...........fun player to watch.........I know WR's were sliding like crazy in drafts prior to this one........but I still didn't understand how he got so little love in the draft and anytime I've thought of a Philly trade since I've tried to figure out how to get Quez thrown in.  

 

He's not a close relative of Sammy Watkins........they apparently don't really know if they are distant relatives or not..........but I know a lot of Bills fans faces would melt off if the Bills got a WR named Watkins.   :lol:

 

After his play last season,  that ship has sailed. 

 

And I didn't understand why Philly was so desperate to add a 3rd outside WR of AJ Brown caliber and pay scale with super premium draft pick DeVonta Smith and the explosive Watkins already in tow.  I'm all for adding WR talent but I really thought they would just go 2nd or 3rd round for WR this year.    They have some serious talent at WR.

 

 

 

 

Edited by BADOLBILZ
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1 hour ago, below said:

 

Why waste draft picks when we could just sign Emmanuel Sanders or something? 

 

And why don't they do just that and replace Kumerow with Sanders? Because Sanders don't play special teams.

 

Unlike in Madden, Special Teams ability is a real thing valued in the real NFL.

 

I don't think Sanders is an option at this point. He said Josh tried to talk him into coming back and he told Josh his knees are in rough shape. I get the feeling he might come back if there were injuries midseason and we absolutely needed him. But if he is coming back, I don't think he wants anything to do with OTA's or Training Camp.

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5 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

And if Aaron Donald went down they would not have anything close to a replacement. Or Jalen Ramsey. Etc. That's what I mean when I say building an NFL roster is a game of whack a mole. Any problem you solve by spending draft or salary capital creates another problem somewhere else. It's true that the outside WR depth on the Bills is weaker than the depth at some other position groups. Even the best rosters in the NFL have that problem somewhere. Case in point the Bills arguably have the best roster in the NFL and here we are talking about it not being deep enough. It's a really pointless conversation IMO.

 

 

 

There is a big difference between saying "we don't have someone as good as the greatest defensive player of 21st century"............. and having a 30 year old, kick cover only special teamer who put up 28 yards of offense in 2021 backing up your #2 boundary receiver who has yet to put up over 600 yards in a season.  

 

It's not just a wack-a-mole situation........most teams have some combination of promising young talent or at least moderately established talent at WR3.

 

I think we can expect something to give there.........it's not enough depth at a key position for a SB contender.

 

But as I've mentioned before.........we saw the 2003 Bills think they could go into the season with just a bit less receiving talent than their dynamic 2002 passing offense.........and after 2 games they had scored 69 points.

 

Then Eric Moulds got hurt and they were the worst offense in the league from that point on.   BY A LOT.  

 

You NEED matchup winning capable talent to be dynamic in the passing game in the NFL.

 

I'll believe they are going into this season with just Diggs and Davis of note outside when I see it.

 

 

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1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

What is the definition of a reduced role though?

 

Last season Davis and Sanders combined to average about 44 snaps each per game played.

 

That comes out to about 740 snaps each.

 

The last time Julio was healthy for a whole season he averaged 1.72 yards per snap on about 800 snaps on a bad Falcons team.

 

At 740 snaps that would project out to a ridiculous 1300 yards........only 5 WR's had over 1250 yards receiving in the NFL last year. :lol:

 

The odds of that happening are minuscule..........Jones has played less than 800 snaps the last two years combined.........so 500-600 snaps might be his max at this point.

 

He might still be able to put up really nice numbers on a limited snap count...........while raising his profile in the court of public opinion(like OBJ did with the Rams) by helping an exciting, interesting team to win a SB in a town that is rabid about pro football.

 

As good as Julio has been his career has been mostly about numbers put up playing in a college football town.......... and not about the moments that make people remember you.    

 

The point is that there is A LOT of opportunity in this Bills offense.    And it's not like Gabe Davis is a first team All Pro........he had about 600 yards on about 800 snaps as a rookie and had some up and down performances last regular season.    Splitting snaps with Julio isn't out of the question or necessarily a bad idea for either of them.

 

I'm not as high on the Hilton idea but some of the same logic applies.........he's averaged just 566 snaps per season the last 4 years.

 

 

It's a good elevator pitch.  I'll give you that.  I think Davis proved himself enough last year to win the 2nd WR role even if his play was inconsistent. If they went with last years rotation Jones would receive about 36% of the snaps (Sanders saw 80% and Davis saw 36% in the 12 games where both were healthy throughout).  If his ego can accept that role on a one year contract that Landry signed (6 million) then I'd be ecstatic to have him.

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