Trent McDuffie vs Kaiir Elam

[Chuck Schick]

Seems to me Beane and most/all GM's tend to have "blocks" of players they like at certain draft positions, as opposed to being locked in on an individual..   I  imagine they would have still traded up  if the Chiefs had picked Elam instead of McDuffie.  Who knows which guy they liked better, or if there even was a preference?

[nedboy7]

Man this thread is entertaining. 

[Warcodered]

Elam's been the pick ever since he pulled out that notebook during his interview of his notes on how to improve, picking him was the only way to get McDermott's process ***** to go down.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

Has this current regime ever drafted a player in the 1st round without a top-30 visit?  If not, there's your answer on McDuffie over Elam.

Anyone know the answer to the above question?

[GunnerBill]

11 minutes ago, Doc said:

Anyone know the answer to the above question?

 

Greg Rousseau but the thing is last year there was less distinction between the types of zoom you could do. But in the four years (out of 6 of the regime) that in person top 30 visits have happened AND the Bills have owned a first round pick the Bills have picked 5 players:

 

- Tre White

- Josh Allen

- Tremaine Edmunds

- Ed Oliver

- Kaiir Elam

 

All have been top 30 visits. Trent McDuffie was never the pick. 

[GunnerBill]

6 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

 

If you listened to this kid he as he couldn't wait to get started studying, he brought his FSU, playbook, notebook with him to greet Bills FO/coaches. 

 

He was a Gator not a Seminole. 

[FilthyBeast]

17 hours ago, FFadpecr said:

It's obvious that Belichick allowed the Chiefs to trade up with them to jump the Bills for McDuffie. Belichick knows the Bills scheme and knew the Bills wanted McDuffie. McDuffie was a seamless, perfect scheme fit for the Zone-heavy scheme the Bills run. McDuffie is already elite at playing Off Coverage; Elam is a projection in that regard. Elam also has a huge hole in his game; he is very bad at tackling (so so so many instances on tape of Elam whiffing on tackles)

 

If both McDuffie and Elam were on the board at 25, I'm 98% sure Beane would have selected McDuffie. Once he got jumped, however, he had no choice but to trade up to make sure he got the next best guy at CB. But still, the Bills missed out on the guy they truly wanted.

 

So the question is, how much worse than McDuffie is Elam? Big dropoff, little dropoff, about the same? Is it even possible that Elam becomes the better player? 

 

Has anyone here compared these 2 players? I was curious what you thought.

 

 

Everyone will of course say that Elam is the better player and who the Bills wanted all along, but obviously the Chiefs moved up and took who they felt was clearly the better player in McDuffie.

 

Time will tell ow things pan out but I still think it's a dangerous proposition for the Bills either way to not have a fallback plan and sign a veteran DB ASAP before the market truly dries up.

[Billl]

There are only two things we can be pretty certain of.  
 

1. The Chiefs had McDuffie in a tier above Elam.  If this hadn’t been the case, they wouldn’t have traded up to get McDuffie when both he and Elam were still on the board.

 

2. The Bills had both in the same tier (and no other remaining CBs were in that tier).  We know this to be true because they immediately began working to trade up once McDuffie was picked.  Had they only wanted Elam, they would have traded sooner to get him.  It seems almost certain that the Bills would have made the same trade for McDuffie had the Chiefs grabbed Elam given the timing of the trades.

 

IMO, both teams did a great job of getting a CB who was the last remaining elite guy on their boards.  It just seems like Buffalo had as many as 4 CBs rated as elite while KC had no more than 3.  Hopefully this ends up being a Lattimore vs White scenario where both teams nailed it.

[bahamasbills]

Based on who they brought in for pre draft visits I think Buffalo liked Elam more but felt like most teams had McDuffie ranked higher.  So the plan was to use the McDuffie pick as a signal to move up to secure Elam before a run on CB's happened. 

 

Beane mentioned that he hated trading second day picks as its his favorite part of the draft.  It would have been worst case scenario for him to move up too much and have to give up a 3rd round pick, so the plan going in was to target the 4th CB after the 3rd one went.

[Amaru523]

17 hours ago, FFadpecr said:

It's obvious that Belichick allowed the Chiefs to trade up with them to jump the Bills for McDuffie. Belichick knows the Bills scheme and knew the Bills wanted McDuffie. McDuffie was a seamless, perfect scheme fit for the Zone-heavy scheme the Bills run. McDuffie is already elite at playing Off Coverage; Elam is a projection in that regard. Elam also has a huge hole in his game; he is very bad at tackling (so so so many instances on tape of Elam whiffing on tackles)

 

If both McDuffie and Elam were on the board at 25, I'm 98% sure Beane would have selected McDuffie. Once he got jumped, however, he had no choice but to trade up to make sure he got the next best guy at CB. But still, the Bills missed out on the guy they truly wanted.

 

So the question is, how much worse than McDuffie is Elam? Big dropoff, little dropoff, about the same? Is it even possible that Elam becomes the better player? 

 

Has anyone here compared these 2 players? I was curious what you thought.

 

Wasn't Deion Sanders really poor at tackling too?

[Back2Buff]

McDuffie is a way better prospect than Elam.  I'm not even sure if Elam was in most teams top 40 players in the draft.

[Paul Costa]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

There are only two things we can be pretty certain of.  
 

1. The Chiefs had McDuffie in a tier above Elam.  If this hadn’t been the case, they wouldn’t have traded up to get McDuffie when both he and Elam were still on the board.

 

2. The Bills had both in the same tier (and no other remaining CBs were in that tier).  We know this to be true because they immediately began working to trade up once McDuffie was picked.  Had they only wanted Elam, they would have traded sooner to get him.  It seems almost certain that the Bills would have made the same trade for McDuffie had the Chiefs grabbed Elam given the timing of the trades.

 

IMO, both teams did a great job of getting a CB who was the last remaining elite guy on their boards.  It just seems like Buffalo had as many as 4 CBs rated as elite while KC had no more than 3.  Hopefully this ends up being a Lattimore vs White scenario where both teams nailed it.

Your reply is 100% speculation. 

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

There are only two things we can be pretty certain of.  
 

1. The Chiefs had McDuffie in a tier above Elam.  If this hadn’t been the case, they wouldn’t have traded up to get McDuffie when both he and Elam were still on the board.

 

2. The Bills had both in the same tier (and no other remaining CBs were in that tier).  We know this to be true because they immediately began working to trade up once McDuffie was picked.  Had they only wanted Elam, they would have traded sooner to get him.  It seems almost certain that the Bills would have made the same trade for McDuffie had the Chiefs grabbed Elam given the timing of the trades.

 

IMO, both teams did a great job of getting a CB who was the last remaining elite guy on their boards.  It just seems like Buffalo had as many as 4 CBs rated as elite while KC had no more than 3.  Hopefully this ends up being a Lattimore vs White scenario where both teams nailed it.

 

#2 is not certain at all. The Bills move up was about Tennessee. I have provided the reasons multiple times now why McDuffie is NOT a McDermott corner. If the Chiefs had taken Elam at #21 I still don't believe the Bills were picking McDuffie. He was never their guy. And this isn't Monday Morning Quarterbacking. I was making these same arguments pre-draft as to why he wasn't their guy. He doesn't meet the physical profile they look for and he was not a top 30 visit. Those two things are absolute pre-requisites for this regime. He'd have been a startling out of character, departure from all their principles pick. 

 

Now don't get me wrong I absolutely do see why McDuffie is a fit for Spags and what KC do. I had a higher grade on him and I don't think it is at all a stretch to expect the Chiefs did. I have long felt (as you know because we have discussed it) that the Chiefs need to be better at corner and he is a big upgrade and a great fit for KC. I am not knocking the pick at all. But I don't ever think he was the Bills guy. I am not even sold that they had him on their board. 

 

11 minutes ago, Back2Buff said:

McDuffie is a way better prospect than Elam.  I'm not even sure if Elam was in most teams top 40 players in the draft.

 

I don't agree with "way better." But I had a higher grade on McDuffie too, but said all along "don't expect him to be a Bill." This organisation knows what they want and they stick to their guns on it. Even I said this year "it is hard to know what direction they go" and in the end, it really wasn't. They went premium position, physical traits and top 30 visit. It should in hindsight have been easy. That is what they do every year.

Edited May 10, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Success]

I'm just happy we got Elam.  I'm sure McDuffie is rated as a better prospect - but Elam has the upside thing that this regime covets, and I feel like they'll be able to get the most out of his skillset.  

 

All I care about is that we got a good one. I think he and Tre together can really shut down passing offenses.

 

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

There are only two things we can be pretty certain of.  
 

1. The Chiefs had McDuffie in a tier above Elam.  If this hadn’t been the case, they wouldn’t have traded up to get McDuffie when both he and Elam were still on the board.

 

2. The Bills had both in the same tier (and no other remaining CBs were in that tier).  We know this to be true because they immediately began working to trade up once McDuffie was picked.  Had they only wanted Elam, they would have traded sooner to get him.  It seems almost certain that the Bills would have made the same trade for McDuffie had the Chiefs grabbed Elam given the timing of the trades.

 

IMO, both teams did a great job of getting a CB who was the last remaining elite guy on their boards.  It just seems like Buffalo had as many as 4 CBs rated as elite while KC had no more than 3.  Hopefully this ends up being a Lattimore vs White scenario where both teams nailed it.

 

I don’t think you are correct at all with this.

 

What we know is the Chiefs valued McDuffie over Elam as that was the way they made the choice.  You have no idea if they were on the same tier or different tiers.  Just that with both there McDuffie was their choice.

 

I think #2 is very suspect.  The Bills did not bring in McDuffie only Elam - that is who they were targeting all along.

 

I think the Bills suspected that many teams would choose McDuffie first, but he was not a great fit for the Bills as an outside CB.  Beane stated he had started to look to move as high as 20 with Pittsburgh - which was before the KC trade.  I don’t think the KC trade was the catalyst that you seem to think.  
 

I think if the Chiefs had grabbed Elam - the Bills would have looked to move down and draft Gordon over taking McDuffie.

 

The move up - especially after the KC move up was to prevent another team - I suspect Tennessee based upon how they retreated - from getting in front and getting Elam.  
 

I do not think in any way that McDuffie was on the Bills radar as a top end CB - he just does not fit their profile and did not visit as a top 30.  
 

Sorry - I apparently agree very closely with @GunnerBill on this - should have read all the replies as he nailed it.

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[Rochesterfan]

53 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't agree with "way better." But I had a higher grade on McDuffie too, but said all along "don't expect him to be a Bill." This organisation knows what they want and they stick to their guns on it. Even I said this year "it is hard to know what direction they go" and in the end, it really wasn't. They went premium position, physical traits and top 30 visit. It should in hindsight have been easy. That is what they do every year.

 

43 minutes ago, Success said:

I'm just happy we got Elam.  I'm sure McDuffie is rated as a better prospect - but Elam has the upside thing that this regime covets, and I feel like they'll be able to get the most out of his skillset.  

 

All I care about is that we got a good one. I think he and Tre together can really shut down passing offenses.

 

I totally agree with what you both are saying here.

 

 

I thought Sal yesterday said something interesting about this.  
 

He made a point that the Bills drafting late in Round #1 have made it a point to draft premium players with ideal physical traits - trusting the coaching staff will train them up in technique.  
 

Draft the things you can’t teach - size, speed, intelligence, desire, etc.  Let the staff teach things like tackling, technique, reading the QB, etc.  These players late in round 1 all have flaws - try to make the flaws be something you can teach rather than something you can not change.

 

I think that applies very much in this instance - Elam has all the characteristics you want, but struggled with technique and tackling issue very teachable if he is willing.  McDuffie had better technique at the moment, but his size was a little short and short arms - nothing the Bills could do to change those physical attributes.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Rochesterfan

[boyst]

16 hours ago, Ed_Formerly_of_Roch said:

 

Exactly!! We have no idea for certain what he'd have done.  The only thing I'm certain of it's 98% speculation!

wasting time at work. noticed you're in wilmington. go check out bull city ciderworks that just opened there. even if you don't traditionally like cider, you'll like this. mix up a few types, too

[TBBills]

1 hour ago, Back2Buff said:

McDuffie is a way better prospect than Elam.  I'm not even sure if Elam was in most teams top 40 players in the draft.

Let me guess you logged in just to troll...

McDuffie will probably be out of the league in 5 years.

[Billl]

1 hour ago, Back2Buff said:

McDuffie is a way better prospect than Elam.  I'm not even sure if Elam was in most teams top 40 players in the draft.

Everyone’s disagreeing with you, but I’m struggling to find a single poster who was advocating drafting Elam prior to draft day.  He seemed to be pretty unpopular around here right up until the Bills drafted him.  Suddenly, he was obviously the perfect fit all along.  Meanwhile, McDuffie went 15th in the mock (Elam wasn’t picked).  That said, he was absolutely in my top 40, and I’d have been happy with him at 29.

 

The amount of posters who think it’s was just some amazing coincidence that Beane traded up 2 spots for a Corner immediately after the Chiefs traded ahead of Buffalo to draft McDuffie is interesting.

 

Edited May 10, 2022 by Billl

[TBBills]

20 minutes ago, Billl said:

Everyone’s disagreeing with you, but I’m struggling to find a single poster who was advocating drafting Elam prior to draft day.  He seemed to be pretty unpopular around here right up until the Bills drafted him.  Suddenly, he was obviously the perfect fit all along.  Meanwhile, McDuffie went 15th in the mock (Elam wasn’t picked).  That said, he was absolutely in my top 40, and I’d have been happy with him at 29.

 

The amount of posters who think it’s was just some amazing coincidence that Beane traded up 2 spots for a Corner immediately after the Chiefs traded ahead of Buffalo to draft McDuffie is interesting.

 

You already been proven wrong... he wasn't brought in for a visit.