Can we talk about Tremaine Edmunds?

[MasterStrategist]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Correction:   The OL improved only after and only when Allen was being used heavily as a runner.    After the home loss to NE the Bills went into desperation mode and Allen rushed 12 times against Tampa, 15 against Atlanta and 12 @ NE.    After the turf toe injury against Tampa the Bills tried to keep him in the pocket and the result was 4 sacks.   So it was back to using him like a RB the next week.   But if you are OK with rushing Allen 200 times during the regular season then yeah that OL would have been fine.  

 

Saffold missed 5 games worth of snaps because of a chronic shoulder injury in 2021........driving fans(and probably management) crazy with his in-out act.  Daryl Williams played every snap of the season.   Their PFF grades were about the same when they played.   But Williams also played some of his snaps at the more difficult and valuable RT position,   so he provides more versatility and is younger.    Saffold was just cheaper and familiar with Kromer.   That's the end of the story you are talking about........not that he was an upgrade.

 

I EXPECT Gabe Davis to put up 1200 yards receiving.   He probably has to.   He's been handed sole possession of a spot in the lineup that has produced those kind of numbers. 

 

There just isn't ANY depth.

 

Saying I don't believe in Davis is like saying the Bills don't believe in Ed Oliver because they paid starting money to Jordan Phillips.   Oliver should be playing AT LEAST 2/3 of the snaps.    

 

As for your perception of why Davis didn't play..........as Bills employee and shill Sal Capaccio said many times,   Gabe Davis wasn't getting more PT because he had a nagging foot injury.    He also finished the 2020 season diminished by injury.    So the question is whether it's safe to assume he can perform for 20 games without being diminished for a significant portion of a season.    Because there is no proven backup or high ceiling prospect waiting in the wings on the perimeter.

Re: Josh Allens carries in the final games, Ill give you TB, but this is what happens when you have selective memory OR just look at the final stat line (which I know you watch the games, so ill go with former).

 

Let's select one of the games you mentioned, at NE and 12 rushes:

1. 2 of those "rushes" were scrambles/not designed runs

2. 2 of the rushes were designed, but 3rd/4th and 1, qb sneaks.  Back to back in the 4th quarter on final "drive"

3. 2 were "kneel downs", which do count into the 12....

 

So that's technically 6 carries that someone could argue might be excessive.  Because QB sneaks (Short yardage), scrambles. and kneel downs should never be used to advance your point.  

 

Bottom line, the OL played well/above average down the stretch/started to click, we started to get more balance running with Motor and we had historic point output in our 2 playoff games.  Offense was not an issue. 

 

Our defense had inflated stats to be ranked #1, playing against several subpar Qbs and basically game (home NE) that the opponent decided to play a Peewee football offensive startegy...our dline was nowhere near physical or capable enough to generate "splash plays" during the season.  Every team has a "lapse" game or 2, ours were Pitt and Jacksonville....but the 1st NE loss, Ten loss, Indy loss, and Chiefs playoff loss all proved we needed major upgrades up front. 

 

Funny that's exactly what Beane and front office decided to address.  Coupled with lack of speed in our secondary, which even when Tre played, teams picked on Levi.

 

Gabe will be just fine, we don't need him to produce 1,200 yards.  We need him, Knox, Crowder, Cook, Shakir, McKenzie (likely elevated role) etc...this is one of the most versatile offense groups we've had in a long time..by no means do other teams have 3 stud outside WRs, let alone 2 (which we have).  Injuries are unpredictable, but I trust Beane and staff have a plan ready if needed...new offensive playcaller likely going to mean expect a more balanced attack.

 

 

[MasterStrategist]

Couple posters, continuing to push the same convo from the OTA thread here (ie: lack of OL depth, concerns about our outside WR depth, etc).  Back to point on Tremaine...

 

I'm a big supporter, and think/hope an improved DL is going to make a world of difference.  Not just because of improved talent, but maybe it lets him play more "loose", and trust his instincts more.  Im fully aware that he plays a bit "robotic" at times, which is frustrating because he has the talent/movement skills, to be a more disruptive force...hoping this is the year the light flips, but he's still a solid/tier 2 MLB (#8-10 best), we could certainly do worse.  But agree with many who are weighing the potential future cost, I'd put him behind Davis, Knox, and Ed for certain in terms of prioritizing...potential is there though, so I'm glad we can hopefully see him make it happen this year.

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Hours is a stretch…. It’s  just usually where I end my point…. Read up thread and I wrote plenty about Edmunds. 

And your seriously mad. 

I’d rather gouge my eyes out and fill the holes with lime juice.  Thanks though 

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, NewEra said:

How many teams have good depth on the OL.

 

I disagree with your statement that we don’t have ANY depth.  

 

 

 How many teams gave up 125 combined pressures and sacks last year?

 

And show me where I made that statement.    It's one thing to imagine I said something like that........but to put an emphasis on "ANY" when it didn't happen.........maybe double check the posts before you start straw-manning.

 

What I said was that the Bills addressed their backup situations by adding guys whose weaker aspect.........pass blocking.........was the biggest problem on the OL........and the team for that matter.    Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed by a tackle.    If you look at the guys they added(from Saffold to all the backups),  you'd think they were planning to run the hell out of the ball because these dudes were available cheap because they get their QB's hit too much.

 

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Correction:   The OL improved only after and only when Allen was being used heavily as a runner.    After the home loss to NE the Bills went into desperation mode and Allen rushed 12 times against Tampa, 15 against Atlanta and 12 @ NE.    After the turf toe injury against Tampa the Bills tried to keep him in the pocket and the result was 4 sacks.   So it was back to using him like a RB the next week.   But if you are OK with rushing Allen 200 times during the regular season then yeah that OL would have been fine.  

 

Saffold missed 5 games worth of snaps because of a chronic shoulder injury in 2021........driving fans(and probably management) crazy with his in-out act.  Daryl Williams played every snap of the season.   Their PFF grades were about the same when they played.   But Williams also played some of his snaps at the more difficult and valuable RT position,   so he provides more versatility and is younger.    Saffold was just cheaper and familiar with Kromer.   That's the end of the story you are talking about........not that he was an upgrade.

 

I EXPECT Gabe Davis to put up 1200 yards receiving.   He probably has to.   He's been handed sole possession of a spot in the lineup that has produced those kind of numbers. 

 

There just isn't ANY depth.

 

Saying I don't believe in Davis is like saying the Bills don't believe in Ed Oliver because they paid starting money to Jordan Phillips.   Oliver should be playing AT LEAST 2/3 of the snaps.    

 

As for your perception of why Davis didn't play..........as Bills employee and shill Sal Capaccio said many times,   Gabe Davis wasn't getting more PT because he had a nagging foot injury.    He also finished the 2020 season diminished by injury.    So the question is whether it's safe to assume he can perform for 20 games without being diminished for a significant portion of a season.    Because there is no proven backup or high ceiling prospect waiting in the wings on the perimeter.

 

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 How many teams gave up 125 combined pressures and sacks last year?

 

And show me where I made that statement.    It's one thing to imagine I said something like that........but to put an emphasis on "ANY" when it didn't happen.........maybe double check the posts before you start straw-manning.

 

What I said was that the Bills addressed their backup situations by adding guys whose weaker aspect.........pass blocking.........was the biggest problem on the OL........and the team for that matter.    Quessenberry lead the NFL in sacks allowed by a tackle.    If you look at the guys they added(from Saffold to all the backups),  you'd think they were planning to run the hell out of the ball because these dudes were available cheap because they get their QB's hit too much.

 

My bad, I should’ve read more carefully but I tend to skim the self dubbed “villain” posts because I’ve already know what is going to be written as I’ve already read it ad nauseam.  
 

outside WR depth sucks.  You are correct.  You were correct the first 150 times you’ve posted it too.  
 

regarding the OL conversation……you only mention the starters.  No mention of the depth additions.   You mention pff grades…. How about the pff grades of our new BACKUP IOL (quessenberry and Van Roten) in relation to daryl Williams?  
 

Care to discuss Saffold, van roten + quessenberry vs Daryl Williams, Doyle and Ford?  You mention the WR depth, how about the depth of the OL…..you know, the unit that cost us 3 games is season because we didn’t have proper depth?  
 

which nfl contenders do have great depth along the OL in the nfl today?  Any?

[BADOLBILZ]

5 hours ago, YattaOkasan said:

Already available on YouTube. 
 

joe is always worth a listen

 

 

It was pretty clear which way Marino was going at "the Bills are unwavering" on Edmunds role as the leader of their defense as the first argument point about his value to the team.

 

If they were "unwavering"...........he'd have been extended last offseason or this one.

 

Second argument is Robert Saleh comparing him to Brian Urlacher.    Ahem..........yeah except for the All Pro level play.

 

Third is how he's a mystical unicorn in pass defense and he quotes Leslie Frazier saying he bats a lot of passes down...........which is patently untrue.........Edmunds literally doesn't make many plays on the ball in the passing game.    His passer rating against has been well over 100 the past two years...........which is bad.

 

Fourth.........after eschewing stats when discussing Edmunds in the passing game.........he goes on about depth of tackle numbers etc.. when those are just as team based stats, if not more,  as the plays in pass defense.

 

All of the things Marino acknowledges about Edmunds weaknesses...........bad eyes in zone coverage..........can't get off blocks.........improving his processing speed because he doesn't make enough "splash" plays..........he goes out of his way to excuse because of the seemingly outrageous amount of responsibility he's given.

 

Let me say that the term "splash" plays is used mostly by apologists to make it seem like they are some kind of "extra".    

 

They are not icing on the cake.

 

Making plays on the ball,  turning the ball over,  getting home on the blitz.........these are all things that are part of the job and Edmunds so happens to be particular BAD at all 3 of those things. 

 

He has 2 interceptions in the last 3 seasons.

 

He hasn't forced a fumble in 57 games.

 

He's NEVER recovered a single fumble in 61 career games.

 

In 227 career blitz attempts he has an astonishingly low 11 hurries...........and had NONE in 72 blitz attempts in 2020.

 

Claiming that the expectations of him from the coaching staff are unrealistic is the perfect way to excuse EVERY issue though.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by BADOLBILZ

[Nelius]

16 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

I think it will be tougher to find someone as good as or better than Poyer over the next 3 seasons. Edmunds is replacement level IMO. Bobby Wagner would have been a huge upgrade and a top 100 pick has a good chance of being as good or better. 
 

 

Bobby Wagner will be 32 years old when the season starts? I can tolerate some levels of Edmunds hatred but can't really overlook an entire 8 year difference at LB. No, Wagner would not have been a huge upgrade.

Edited July 1, 2022 by Nelius

[Doc Brown]

15 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

Regular season losses to Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, New England and Indianapolis............games where they simply couldn't execute offensively due to a league worst pass blocking OL(125 combined sacks and pressures was the most) and the lack of YAC talent(last in the NFL in that category) cost them what should have been a cruise to home field advantage.

Out of curiosity, where are you getting this stat?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Correction:   The OL improved only after and only when Allen was being used heavily as a runner.    After the home loss to NE the Bills went into desperation mode and Allen rushed 12 times against Tampa, 15 against Atlanta and 12 @ NE.    After the turf toe injury against Tampa the Bills tried to keep him in the pocket and the result was 4 sacks.   So it was back to using him like a RB the next week.   But if you are OK with rushing Allen 200 times during the regular season then yeah that OL would have been fine.  

 

Saffold missed 5 games worth of snaps because of a chronic shoulder injury in 2021........driving fans(and probably management) crazy with his in-out act.  Daryl Williams played every snap of the season.   Their PFF grades were about the same when they played.   But Williams also played some of his snaps at the more difficult and valuable RT position,   so he provides more versatility and is younger.    Saffold was just cheaper and familiar with Kromer.   That's the end of the story you are talking about........not that he was an upgrade.

 

I EXPECT Gabe Davis to put up 1200 yards receiving.   He probably has to.   He's been handed sole possession of a spot in the lineup that has produced those kind of numbers. 

 

There just isn't ANY depth.

 

Saying I don't believe in Davis is like saying the Bills don't believe in Ed Oliver because they paid starting money to Jordan Phillips.   Oliver should be playing AT LEAST 2/3 of the snaps.    

 

As for your perception of why Davis didn't play..........as Bills employee and shill Sal Capaccio said many times,   Gabe Davis wasn't getting more PT because he had a nagging foot injury.    He also finished the 2020 season diminished by injury.    So the question is whether it's safe to assume he can perform for 20 games without being diminished for a significant portion of a season.    Because there is no proven backup or high ceiling prospect waiting in the wings on the perimeter.

Allen ran that many times vs Tampa and Atlanta because he just wasn’t have great games. The Tampa game his running is what got him going. Atlanta game he was just off. Do you watch these games? Dabol liked to run Allen to calm him down when he’s off with his passing.

 

Saffold has the 4th highest cap hit of all UFA OGs in 2022 that changed teams. It wasn’t about cheap. The Bills wanted him. They could’ve signed other free agent OGs. His injuries are a concern. Daryl Williams has slow feet. Doesn’t move well. Bills have one of the most athletic OLs in the NFL this upcoming season. This seems to be by design. Williams doesn’t fit that.

 

Allen said Davis was frustrated with his opportunities. Allen told Davis to be patient. It’s not perception. Davis had only 19 snaps in the Jags game. He was a 4th or 5th option the majority of the season. It changed entering the playoffs. I think around the Tampa game Gabe switched roles with Sanders. My biggest worry with Davis is at times he and Allen aren’t on the same page. Hopefully the KC game was proof it started to click.

 

Davis should put up numbers topping 1,000 yards and around 10 TDs. He’s definitely going to have the opportunity.
 

Not many teams have proven depth. Typically proven depth are just players that have proven they can’t start. Typically you have young developing talent as depth. I don’t know if Shakir can be a Gabe Davis. I would love to have a Gabe Davis type young player as depth but it just doesn’t always work out like that.

[Don Otreply]

7 hours ago, NewEra said:

 

My bad, I should’ve read more carefully but I tend to skim the self dubbed “villain” posts because I’ve already know what is going to be written as I’ve already read it ad nauseam.  
 

outside WR depth sucks.  You are correct.  You were correct the first 150 times you’ve posted it too.  
 

regarding the OL conversation……you only mention the starters.  No mention of the depth additions.   You mention pff grades…. How about the pff grades of our new BACKUP IOL (quessenberry and Van Roten) in relation to daryl Williams?  
 

Care to discuss Saffold, van roten + quessenberry vs Daryl Williams, Doyle and Ford?  You mention the WR depth, how about the depth of the OL…..you know, the unit that cost us 3 games is season because we didn’t have proper depth?  
 

which nfl contenders do have great depth along the OL in the nfl today?  Any?

I’ve brought up the same O-line depth league wide point several times in the past, and neither of our non stop doom and gloom posters ever reply to the point, and that is quite telling to say the least…, it shallows their arguments, 

[DCofNC]

7 hours ago, Nelius said:

 

Bobby Wagner will be 32 years old when the season starts? I can tolerate some levels of Edmunds hatred but can't really overlook an entire 8 year difference at LB. No, Wagner would not have been a huge upgrade.

Wagner is still playing at All-Pro level and Edmunds never has.  That’s as silly as saying Tom Brady wouldn’t be an upgrade for Daniel Jones because of age.

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

8 hours ago, Nelius said:

 

Bobby Wagner will be 32 years old when the season starts? I can tolerate some levels of Edmunds hatred but can't really overlook an entire 8 year difference at LB. No, Wagner would not have been a huge upgrade.

In league history there have been:

 

Plenty of good 32 year old linebackers.

 

Plenty of good 24 year old linebackers. Edmunds isn’t one of them though. 
 

You Edmunds apologists really are obsessed with age. 

 

btw, London Fletcher left Buffalo for Washington at 32yo. He played another 7 seasons including 4 consecutive pro bowls, which were the only selections of his career 

Edited July 1, 2022 by Rock-A-Bye Beasley

[T master]

I hope there is a way the Bills can keep Edmunds around he is still very young and is a good player that gives his all on the field & is a Bills type of player & McD likes to keep his own but the money thing is a huge motivation for both sides & if Edmunds wants more than the Bills can afford i see him in a different Uni next year .

[Orlando Tim]

I am curious to all of the Edmund bashers how do the Bills run a 4-2 defense unless Edmunds and Milano are both really good? Our Dline has not been elite but somehow we had the #1 defense in league this past year statistically. We run a defense that required two great LBs and we ran it successfully last year, so either the dude can play or the other 5 covered up for him. Part of me hopes this conversation is happening again next year because if he does make splash plays he will definitely cost too much for us next year and it is highly unlikely a 3rd rounder can step in and fill his shoes 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo Timmy said:

I am curious to all of the Edmund bashers how do the Bills run a 4-2 defense unless Edmunds and Milano are both really good? Our Dline has not been elite but somehow we had the #1 defense in league this past year statistically. We run a defense that required two great LBs and we ran it successfully last year, so either the dude can play or the other 5 covered up for him. Part of me hopes this conversation is happening again next year because if he does make splash plays he will definitely cost too much for us next year and it is highly unlikely a 3rd rounder can step in and fill his shoes 

They say quality of competition is the reason our defense is good. There’s definitely an argument for that. Also we have an incredibly difficult home field to throw in.

 

That said they’re dominant at times. Edmunds never leaves the field. He’s not a liability as some claim. That’s ludicrous. I think he’s ultra conservative. Indecisive at times. Could argue he just lacks the instincts needed to be a top level ILB.

I think he’s already priced himself off the Bills.  Some team will make the highest paid MLB in the NFL.

 

[Nelius]

2 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

In league history there have been:

 

Plenty of good 32 year old linebackers.

 

Plenty of good 24 year old linebackers. Edmunds isn’t one of them though. 
 

You Edmunds apologists really are obsessed with age. 

 

 

 

I'm not an Edmunds apologist by any means, I can just fully understand the difference that 8 seasons on the football field provides. In what reality is Edmunds so bad that you'd rather have a mid-30's rental for one season?

 

2 hours ago, DCofNC said:

Wagner is still playing at All-Pro level and Edmunds never has.  That’s as silly as saying Tom Brady wouldn’t be an upgrade for Daniel Jones because of age.

 

Wagner is no Tom Brady lol c'mon man. In fact, Bobby Wagner's stats for the past 4-5 seasons are downright Edmunds-like. He tackles more, but has been doing so for one of the worst teams in the league. His sack, interception, and big play numbers for about the last 4-5 seasons are just as boring as Tremaine's. It's been a long, long time since that dominating Seattle defense (shouts to Kam Chancellor, what a beast that guy was)

Edited July 1, 2022 by Nelius

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

8 minutes ago, Nelius said:

 

 

I'm not an Edmunds apologist by any means, I can just fully understand the difference that 8 seasons on the football field provides. In what reality is Edmunds so bad that you'd rather have a mid-30's rental for one season?

 

This reality. The super bowl window is open and Edmunds is our weakest starter imo.

39 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

They say quality of competition is the reason our defense is good. There’s definitely an argument for that. Also we have an incredibly difficult home field to throw in.

 

That said they’re dominant at times. Edmunds never leaves the field. He’s not a liability as some claim. That’s ludicrous. I think he’s ultra conservative. Indecisive at times. Could argue he just lacks the instincts needed to be a top level ILB.

I think he’s already priced himself off the Bills.  Some team will make the highest paid MLB in the NFL.

 

In that case they need to tag and trade him after this season 

[Nelius]

1 minute ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

This reality. The super bowl window is open and Edmunds is our weakest starter imo.

 

We don't really even know who are starting guards are but have fun man. 

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

3 minutes ago, Nelius said:

 

We don't really even know who are starting guards are but have fun man. 

Roger Saffold and Ryan Bates. 

You're welcome. 

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

4 minutes ago, Nelius said:

 

We don't really even know who are starting guards are but have fun man. 

Not only is it a pretty good assumption that it’s saffold and bates, but there’s pretty good depth behind them with Ford and Quesssenberry (sp?) potentially