The world we live in

[Artful Dodger]

I don't live in NYS, and I'm not an expert on NY finances, but most states are swimming in money right now, thanks to the various COVID relief spending bills passed by Congress over the last two years.  Many jurisdictions are struggling with figuring out how to spend it all.  Another final tranche of aid is due to state and local jurisdictions this year.  It's wise to spend one-time non-recurring revenues on projects like this, rather than on setting up new programs or cutting taxes where the ongoing spending will have to be made up out of General Fund revenues in future years.

 

Whether it's a good idea to spend it on a new stadium is another question.  I think it is, but then I'm a Bills' fan, and I want to see the team stay in Buffalo. 

[Chef Jim]

4 minutes ago, Artful Dodger said:

I don't live in NYS, and I'm not an expert on NY finances, but most states are swimming in money right now, thanks to the various COVID relief spending bills passed by Congress over the last two years.  Many jurisdictions are struggling with figuring out how to spend it all.  Another final tranche of aid is due to state and local jurisdictions this year.  It's wise to spend one-time non-recurring revenues on projects like this, rather than on setting up new programs or cutting taxes where the ongoing spending will have to be made up out of General Fund revenues in future years.

 

Whether it's a good idea to spend it on a new stadium is another question.  I think it is, but then I'm a Bills' fan, and I want to see the team stay in Buffalo. 

 

Here's a real cool idea.  How about give the surplus back to the people that ponied it up to begin with.  Simple solution a simple problem the government makes difficult.  

[Artful Dodger]

14 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

 

Here's a real cool idea.  How about give the surplus back to the people that ponied it up to begin with.  Simple solution a simple problem the government makes difficult.  

 

I agree, and that's what states like California and several other states are doing when they refund gas taxes.  Other states are reducing tax rates which sounds great until the stimulus money runs out and a recession comes and they need to raise taxes again in order to balance the books.

 

But if you're not going to send the money back to the people, might as well spend it on a new stadium for the Bills. 

 

It is a bit misleading to say the people ponied it up.  The funds were almost entirely borrowed, some with money freshly printed up by the Federal Reserve.  What the Fed didn't print up, our children and grandchildren will be paying back, not us.

 

 

[Chef Jim]

Just now, Artful Dodger said:

 

I agree, and that's what states like California and several other states are doing when they refund gas taxes.  Other states are reducing tax rates which sounds great until the stimulus money runs out and a recession comes and they need to raise taxes again in order to balance the books.

 

But if you're not going to send the money back to the people, might as well spend it on a new stadium for the Bills. 

 

It is a bit misleading to say the people ponied it up.  The funds were almost entirely borrowed, some with money freshly printed up by the Federal Reserve.  What the Fed didn't print up, our children and grandchildren will be paying back, not us.

 

 

Well don’t pat CA on the back so quickly.  They want to give $400 back to everyone who had a registered vehicle.  This is regardless of need or the means of power for your vehicle.  So someone who makes $500k a year and owns a Tesla and a Beemer they never drive gets $800

[Artful Dodger]

14 minutes ago, Chef Jim said:

Well don’t pat CA on the back so quickly.  They want to give $400 back to everyone who had a registered vehicle.  This is regardless of need or the means of power for your vehicle.  So someone who makes $500k a year and owns a Tesla and a Beemer they never drive gets $800

 

I would never defend California, and that's a really bad policy especially because people who own electric vehicles generally have higher incomes than people driving gas powered vehicles and need the money less. 

[Chef Jim]

Just now, Artful Dodger said:

 

I would never defend California, and that's a really bad policy especially because people who own electric vehicles generally have higher incomes than people driving gas powered vehicles and need the money less. 

Well CA is effed up but it’s been my home state for 40 years and I love it here. 
 

BTW they also want to pay people’s public transportation fares for 3 months. Why?  Well I know why. It’s not fair that they don’t benefit just because they don’t own a vehicle.  That was sarcasm….

[All_Pro_Bills]

10 minutes ago, Artful Dodger said:

 

I would never defend California, and that's a really bad policy especially because people who own electric vehicles generally have higher incomes than people driving gas powered vehicles and need the money less. 

Not to mention very generous Federal and State tax credits that go to mostly affluent faux environmentalist buyers of EV's that rarely use them as their primary method of transportation which is something like a Range Rover sitting in the driveway of their 5K sq/ft home with two zone HVAC. 

[HappyDays]

5 hours ago, blitzboy54 said:

This has been disproven so many times my head hurts. At the end of the day no Billionaire owner should get public money unless the public shares the profits. The state should get 100% of the revenue from this until the $800m is paid back. 

 

Then why did NYS agree to the deal? Just because? They did it because they expect that having an NFL stadium and team in the state for the next 30 years will more than make up for the cost. This isn't a charity project. They have no reason to hand the Pegulas $800 million. It's a long-term investment.

[Chef Jim]

19 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Then why did NYS agree to the deal? Just because? They did it because they expect that having an NFL stadium and team in the state for the next 30 years will more than make up for the cost. This isn't a charity project. They have no reason to hand the Pegulas $800 million. It's a long-term investment.

Hahahaha!  One word dude…..

 

VOTES!!

 

 

In case you didn’t know there is already a stadium in WNY generating a much better ROI. Now if you want to say “if they don’t build it the team will leave!”   My response to that is adios El Toros.  

[freddyjj]

9 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Fascinating that this post comes from a guy in Seattle. 

Where long before Trump, Covid and cancel culture they held multi theme protest parades every Sunday.  Even when Seahawks were playing.  Blasphemous!!!

[cv05]

8 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

I posted about this in the stadium thread just last night and it is a false and misleading argument. 

 

Hochul's proposed NYS budget cuts Children and Family Services funding by $800M (msn.com)

 

"CNY Central has reached out directly to Governor Hochul's office for more context and perspective, as well as the Office of Children and Family Services. A spokesperson for OCFS tells CNY Central the proposed budget does not show a reduction in funding to local child protective services programs. Although the number may seem shocking, state leaders from the Governor's office and the Office of Children and Family Services tell CNY Central the absence of one-time pandemic relief money that was there before is the reason behind it."

 

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/hochuls-proposed-nys-budget-cuts-children-and-family-services-funding-by-800m/ar-AAVuWtR

 

Fair - but I think the general, simplified argument is that you could take the 850 million you spent on the stadium and fund something of a more noble and beneficial cause. Children and Family services, for example, is spread very thin and is underfunded, just as most social programs are in the United States. 

[Chef Jim]

58 minutes ago, cv05 said:

 

Fair - but I think the general, simplified argument is that you could take the 850 million you spent on the stadium and fund something of a more noble and beneficial cause. Children and Family services, for example, is spread very thin and is underfunded, just as most social programs are in the United States. 

Exactly.  

[nedboy7]

9 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

Please feel free to take the risk to start a business, work so hard that you have no family or social life to speak of, work all day every day, lose years of your life, maybe you start to show some profits, then you have to deal with competitors trying to take you down and gobs of stress and strain on your body, and then if you somehow do succeed then everyone hates you and says it's not fair. It doesn't matter how much good you do or how many jobs you create, people will despise you. You wouldn't have the guts to start a business so please continue to just sit here on your computer and complain about it some more. We are all so enthralled with your point of view and overall demeanor

I started my own business and my wife and I own two very successful businesses.  Not sure where you come up with your narrative. The fact that you equate child welfare w socialism speaks volumes to the type of person you are.  You have no clue what socialism is. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by nedboy7

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

14 hours ago, cv05 said:

 

 

At least we know where the money came from. 

9 hours ago, Artful Dodger said:

I don't live in NYS, and I'm not an expert on NY finances, but most states are swimming in money right now, thanks to the various COVID relief spending bills passed by Congress over the last two years.  Many jurisdictions are struggling with figuring out how to spend it all.  Another final tranche of aid is due to state and local jurisdictions this year.  It's wise to spend one-time non-recurring revenues on projects like this, rather than on setting up new programs or cutting taxes where the ongoing spending will have to be made up out of General Fund revenues in future years.

 

Whether it's a good idea to spend it on a new stadium is another question.  I think it is, but then I'm a Bills' fan, and I want to see the team stay in Buffalo. 

brilliant. They can make it a covid testing center. Help get past the 9 days a year problem 

[cv05]

On 3/30/2022 at 9:52 AM, thenorthremembers said:

NYS is a disaster in overspending and the Bills stadium is the least of it.

 

Tell me why I see people buying enough Subway subs to feed an army on their EBT cards while I am waiting in line to pay 4.50 a gallon for gas?

 

Tell me why my kid gets lead poisoning from the paint in my house but I cant get a subsidy because I make too much pre tax even though I pay over a 1000 dollar a month in student loans to get the job that pays me too much.

 

Tell me why I watched people getting 500 dollars a week to not work during the pandemic?  

 

Tell me why politicians in our area have no issue giving themselves a pay raise out of our pockets but cry to the media when its about a stadium?

 

People who dont make much have plenty of options for help.   I pay astronomical school taxes when my kids dont go to public school.  The tweet is a hack job.   I am going to go ahead and enjoy paying for the stadium.  If Dan Price cares so much about the funding of programs he likely knows nothing about he can choose to take money out of his own pocket to donate.  Screw him and his hyperbole.

 

Your life sounds so hard.

 

Just thank your lucky stars you don't have a need for any of those services. Are there abusers? sure, but the vast majority are people who were dealt a much worse hand than you and need the support. 

 

Also, yes, people do have lots of options for help. That's what makes living in a first world country a privilege. In other parts of the world, people would scoff at these ridiculous complaints you have.

[thenorthremembers]

4 hours ago, cv05 said:

 

Your life sounds so hard.

 

Just thank your lucky stars you don't have a need for any of those services. Are there abusers? sure, but the vast majority are people who were dealt a much worse hand than you and need the support. 

 

Also, yes, people do have lots of options for help. That's what makes living in a first world country a privilege. In other parts of the world, people would scoff at these ridiculous complaints you have.

I think you completely missed my point.   I wasnt complaining about my life, I was making the point that I pay into a ton of programs, that literally help my family in no way shape or form.   So when something comes into play that I actually use and dont mind paying for, I dont need to hear people crapping all over it.  

 

The 800 million dollar tax cut for "Children and Family Services" has literally no correlation to the Pegula's getting government subsidies for the stadium, its a ploy by a hack writer to play on people's emotions, and it worked perfectly.   How many people that saw that tweet, retweeted the tweet, or even the writer himself, actually knows one program associated with the cuts?  

 

You came on here to try and shame me, but instead you throw out stats like "A vast majority"  when you literally have no idea how many people abuse the system.  It may be 5% or 95%, you have no clue.   But you continue to pay into, because the state mandated it, and deep down it makes you feel good, like you're doing something good for your fellow human, when in reality the state isn't doing anything but chaining them and future generations of their families to continued poverty.   

 

Also, stop using that "if people in other parts of the world" line, its trite.   It's the same ignorant agenda people were pumping on social media and the news when the gas prices first went up.  "Well, you may have to pay a lot for gas, but at least you dont have to worry about bombs, like the people in Ukraine."    Just because one injustice is more severe than another injustice, it doesnt make the lesser of two evils not evil.   That sort of thinking is the exact sort of garbage that made Nazi Germany possible.   
 

Edited March 31, 2022 by thenorthremembers

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

22 hours ago, cv05 said:

 

Fair - but I think the general, simplified argument is that you could take the 850 million you spent on the stadium and fund something of a more noble and beneficial cause. Children and Family services, for example, is spread very thin and is underfunded, just as most social programs are in the United States. 

To be completely honest, I don't really care one way or the other.  I always (usually) have a good time when I attend a game at Highmark, and I always (usually) have a good time when I watch on the 75" screen in my climate controlled house.  

 

I get the simplified argument, but that's the problem, it's  a simplified argument.  NYS government and the spending programs are a leviathan, and to target one specific expenditure in a 'billionaires v children' cage match seems quite unreasonable to me.  If we're going to speak fairly, there are all sorts of programs and expenditures tilted toward the benefit of some, at the expense of many.    

 

Put another way, it seems to me that with so much frigging money going through the system, we ought to be able to have a public/private stadium partnership AND money for children, old folks, the homeless and everyone else.  

[cv05]

35 minutes ago, thenorthremembers said:

I think you completely missed my point.   I wasnt complaining about my life, I was making the point that I pay into a ton of programs, that literally help my family in no way shape or form.   So when something comes into play that I actually use and dont mind paying for, I dont need to hear people crapping all over it.  

 

The 800 million dollar tax cut for "Children and Family Services" has literally no correlation to the Pegula's getting government subsidies for the stadium, its a ploy by a hack writer to play on people's emotions, and it worked perfectly.   How many people that saw that tweet, retweeted the tweet, or even the writer himself, actually knows one program associated with the cuts?  

 

You came on here to try and shame me, but instead you throw out stats like "A vast majority"  when you literally have no idea how many people abuse the system.  It may be 5% or 95%, you have no clue.   But you continue to pay into, because the state mandated it, and deep down it makes you feel good, like you're doing something good for your fellow human, when in reality the state isn't doing anything but chaining them and future generations of their families to continued poverty.   

 

Also, stop using that "if people in other parts of the world" line, its trite.   It's the same ignorant agenda people were pumping on social media and the news when the gas prices first went up.  "Well, you may have to pay a lot for gas, but at least you dont have to worry about bombs, like the people in Ukraine."    Just because one injustice is more severe than another injustice, it doesnt make the lesser of two evils not evil.   That sort of thinking is the exact sort of garbage that made Nazi Germany possible.   
 

 

First, they most certainly do help your family. The quality of the education your children get, the policing, the general societal safety are all from programs like that. If you're specifically talking about "welfare", I would still say that you indirectly benefit. If society had no safety net for these people, well, there wouldn't be much of a society.

 

Second. It is a vast majority. Welfare fraud is estimated to be between 3-5%.

https://www.nao.org.uk/report/international-benchmark-of-fraud-and-error-in-social-security-systems/

It varies around the world, but that's a generally accepted number. 

 

Also, ignorant agenda couldn't be further from the truth. I know personally people from developing countries who have moved here that can share stories that would make you feel absolutely silly for your complaints. For someone who has a cross in their avatar, you certainly don't personify biblical ideals in helping your fellow man. 

 

 

[Doc]

Maybe there's a "Defund the CFS" movement we don't know about?  To maybe, you know, get them to use the $3.5B they are allocating for CFS (the part they conveniently leave out) more properly?  I don't know.

[muppy]

On 3/31/2022 at 1:33 PM, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

To be completely honest, I don't really care one way or the other.  I always (usually) have a good time when I attend a game at Highmark, and I always (usually) have a good time when I watch on the 75" screen in my climate controlled house.  

 

I get the simplified argument, but that's the problem, it's  a simplified argument.  NYS government and the spending programs are a leviathan, and to target one specific expenditure in a 'billionaires v children' cage match seems quite unreasonable to me.  If we're going to speak fairly, there are all sorts of programs and expenditures tilted toward the benefit of some, at the expense of many.    

 

Put another way, it seems to me that with so much frigging money going through the system, we ought to be able to have a public/private stadium partnership AND money for children, old folks, the homeless and everyone else.  

vocabulary mupcheck: Leviathan: 

synonyms:

monster · brute · beast · giant · colossus · mountain · behemoth · mammoth · monstrosity

a very large aquatic creature, especially a whale:

"the great leviathans of the deep"

a thing that is very large or powerful, especially a ship:

"it's a challenge to navigate a wheeled leviathan in rush-hour traffic"

an autocratic monarch or state:

"we must tame the state Leviathan"

 

TCK did not know that one. Interesting conversation really. I know there is homelessness and poverty in Buffalo city  and it breaks my heart.  It is an issue I am involved in and would love to see a solution. But that as my buddy leo says its a simplified thought, argument.  Too complex an issue for one total Fix.

 

I hope the stadium itself as well as supporting the Bills businesses thrive and prove itself worthy of the expenditure. Also, some things you just can't put a price on because it is that huge.......that for me is the Buffalo Bills staying in WNY. Period. Bottom line. For that reason Im thrilled 🙂

 

*cheerleader muppy heck yes I am LOL