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New "ironclad" Stadium deal reached


jletha
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23 hours ago, Doc said:

 

This is beyond dumb.  In the Bills' case, the state owns the stadium, even though the Pegulas/NFL kicked-in 40% of the cost.  

 

"Pegula" will pay a fraction of that 40% you cite.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

"Pegula" will pay a fraction of that 40% you cite.

 

 

I’m guessing you’re somewhat correct. But the owner of any business doesn’t truly ‘pay’ for the building in the end. It’s passed along to their customers in the cost of the movie ticket, dinner bill, etc. The initial investment is ‘fronted’ by the Owner, but even that portion is typically leveraged over time by investors/banks, which the Owner then pays off over time. Is there another way? 

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13 hours ago, Limeaid said:

I hope the design accounts for weather and maintenance.  Flash is fine but something solid is more important.

It's 2022, they're not going to dump a boatload of money into something that isn't feasible to maintain or keep the fans as comfortable as possible given the open air nature.

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I have a crazy theory: you'll see MORE open air NFL stadiums going forward and fewer roofed venues, except in places where the heat/cold is truly unbearable. The cost of these stadiums is getting so stupid, and outdoor football is generally a better looking and more interesting product on TV, which is where the money is. 

 

For all of the reputation for snow and wind, WNY is really not that extreme of a climate. Winter doesn't really start until January around here. 

 

Just as an example, in December 2021 the low temperature in Orchard Park, NY only dropped below 32 degrees (and that would be in the middle of the night, like 4-5 AM) a handful of times. The average high was 44 degrees for December, with a bunch of days in the high 40's and low 50's. 

 

In December! It was 50 degrees on Christmas, and that's not so unusual these days. 

 

So you wear a coat and you're fine as a fan. For players it's even less of an issue. Anyone who does physical work outdoors knows that mid-40 degrees is actually nice weather to do certain jobs that absolutely suck when it's sunny and hot. 

 

Wind is more the issue where the stadium is, so hopefully they find a way to cut that down. A gameday in the mid 40's with a covered seating area for fans where the wind is blocked is going to be quite comfortable.

 

Snow games are actually few and far between for the Bills, which is why they are so memorable when they happen. Just ask anyone who owns a snowmobile in WNY: they use their sleds for like 3-4 weeks in late January/February and that's about it. 

 

And IF there's a "weather event" snowstorm game?

 

Ratings bonanza for the NFL! How is that a negative for the powers that be? 

 

Domes are dull, boring, and suck the life out of the atmosphere. 

 

 

Edited by TheFunPolice
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2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’m guessing you’re somewhat correct. But the owner of any business doesn’t truly ‘pay’ for the building in the end. It’s passed along to their customers in the cost of the movie ticket, dinner bill, etc. The initial investment is ‘fronted’ by the Owner, but even that portion is typically leveraged over time by investors/banks, which the Owner then pays off over time. Is there another way? 

 

I have a mortgage which I will pay a bank over time.  I'm still called a "homeowner" before I fully pay it off.  There doesn't need to be another way than that. Kroenke didn't pull out his wallet and hand his contractors 5 billion.  He financed the vast majority of it.  He's on the hook for that.

 

Of course a business owner pays for the building he/she has built--and it is payed off with the business's revenue.

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4 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

I have a crazy theory: you'll see MORE open air NFL stadiums going forward and fewer roofed venues, except in places where the heat/cold is truly unbearable. The cost of these stadiums is getting so stupid, and outdoor football is generally a better looking and more interesting product on TV, which is where the money is. 

 

For all of the reputation for snow and wind, WNY is really not that extreme of a climate. Winter doesn't really start until January around here. 

 

Just as an example, in December 2021 the low temperature in Orchard Park, NY only dropped below 32 degrees (and that would be in the middle of the night, like 4-5 AM) a handful of times. The average high was 44 degrees for December, with a bunch of days in the high 40's and low 50's. 

 

In December! It was 50 degrees on Christmas, and that's not so unusual these days. 

 

So you wear a coat and you're fine as a fan. For players it's even less of an issue. Anyone who does physical work outdoors knows that mid-40 degrees is actually nice weather to do certain jobs that absolutely suck when it's sunny and hot. 

 

Wind is more the issue where the stadium is, so hopefully they find a way to cut that down. A gameday in the mid 40's with a covered seating area for fans where the wind is blocked is going to be quite comfortable.

 

Snow games are actually few and far between for the Bills, which is why they are so memorable when they happen. Just ask anyone who owns a snowmobile in WNY: they use their sleds for like 3-4 weeks in late January/February and that's about it. 

 

And IF there's a "weather event" snowstorm game?

 

Ratings bonanza for the NFL! How is that a negative for the powers that be? 

 

Domes are dull, boring, and suck the life out of the atmosphere. 

 

 

it's never been about the temperature. it's usually windy at most home games which has more of an effect than cold, rain or snow. I concur, domes are not good. Been to a couple over the years and very different 

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1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I have a mortgage which I will pay a bank over time.  I'm still called a "homeowner" before I fully pay it off.  There doesn't need to be another way than that. Kroenke didn't pull out his wallet and hand his contractors 5 billion.  He financed the vast majority of it.  He's on the hook for that.

 

Of course a business owner pays for the building he/she has built--and it is payed off with the business's revenue.

 

Well, you do 100% own your home immediately. Your home is also collateral for a personal loan that you took out to buy it. 

 

Bank: I'll lend you the money to make the purchase (which you make and own 100%) but that purchase is my security if you don't repay me based on the terms we agree to. 

 

In this case the security is a printing press that spits out hundreds of millions of dollars, so it's more of an investment for anyone loaning an NFL owner money. 

2 minutes ago, nucci said:

it's never been about the temperature. it's usually windy at most home games which has more of an effect than cold, rain or snow. I concur, domes are not good. Been to a couple over the years and very different 

 

Hopefully they can design the stadium in such a way as to cut down on the wind. 

 

Maybe it's the WNYer in me, but a December afternoon when it's in the mid 40's and no wind (which the no wind part if rare near the stadium) with the smell of grills going and maybe a campfire in the distance is a beautiful late fall/early winter day.

 

Totally comfortable. Throw on a bills hoodie and grab a beer and enjoy!

 

 

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5 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

I have a crazy theory: you'll see MORE open air NFL stadiums going forward and fewer roofed venues, except in places where the heat/cold is truly unbearable. The cost of these stadiums is getting so stupid, and outdoor football is generally a better looking and more interesting product on TV, which is where the money is. 

 

For all of the reputation for snow and wind, WNY is really not that extreme of a climate. Winter doesn't really start until January around here. 

 

Just as an example, in December 2021 the low temperature in Orchard Park, NY only dropped below 32 degrees (and that would be in the middle of the night, like 4-5 AM) a handful of times. The average high was 44 degrees for December, with a bunch of days in the high 40's and low 50's. 

 

In December! It was 50 degrees on Christmas, and that's not so unusual these days. 

 

So you wear a coat and you're fine as a fan. For players it's even less of an issue. Anyone who does physical work outdoors knows that mid-40 degrees is actually nice weather to do certain jobs that absolutely suck when it's sunny and hot. 

 

Wind is more the issue where the stadium is, so hopefully they find a way to cut that down. A gameday in the mid 40's with a covered seating area for fans where the wind is blocked is going to be quite comfortable.


 

I am not sure about this.  The next stadium being looked at in Tennessee is a Dome in nice weather.

 

The Washington team is hoping for a domed stadium like SoFi or Dallas.

 

I think more and more are looking at domes - especially larger areas as they are looking at multifunctional purposes.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Rochesterfan said:


 

I am not sure about this.  The next stadium being looked at in Tennessee is a Dome in nice weather.

 

The Washington team is hoping for a domed stadium like SoFi or Dallas.

 

I think more and more are looking at domes - especially larger areas as they are looking at multifunctional purposes.

 

 

 

I didn't see that they were looking at domes, that's interesting...

 

Then again, "looking at" is a lot different from following through. For example, Washington was "looking at" team names that would actually be popular with the fans and weren't lame! 

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4 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

Well, you do 100% own your home immediately. Your home is also collateral for a personal loan that you took out to buy it. 

 

Bank: I'll lend you the money to make the purchase (which you make and own 100%) but that purchase is my security if you don't repay me based on the terms we agree to. 

 

In this case the security is a printing press that spits out hundreds of millions of dollars, so it's more of an investment for anyone loaning an NFL owner money. 

 

Hopefully they can design the stadium in such a way as to cut down on the wind. 

 

Maybe it's the WNYer in me, but a December afternoon when it's in the mid 40's and no wind (which the no wind part if rare near the stadium) with the smell of grills going and maybe a campfire in the distance is a beautiful late fall/early winter day.

 

Totally comfortable. Throw on a bills hoodie and grab a beer and enjoy!

 

 

 

Not true for all types of homes.  Co-ops in the city for example.  Until the mortgage is paid, the bank holds your "share" (like a deed) to the apartment you purchased.  But the fact remains, as you say: I am a homeowner. 

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4 hours ago, Doc said:

 

They'll pay 25%.  The NFL will pay 15%.  The state will own it 100%.

 

After the PSL's, there will be much less than 25% funded by the Pegulas themselves. 

 

Again, as said above, the stadium as an asset isn't worth much. It replaces another asset serving the same purpose that is essentially paid for, recently renovated for 130 million and soon to be demolished.  It can't be sold as a property because no other business has a use for it other than it's future sole tenant. 

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43 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

After the PSL's, there will be much less than 25% funded by the Pegulas themselves. 

 

Again, as said above, the stadium as an asset isn't worth much. It replaces another asset serving the same purpose that is essentially paid for, recently renovated for 130 million and soon to be demolished.  It can't be sold as a property because no other business has a use for it other than it's future sole tenant. 

We can go around in circles on this forever but you REALLY don’t understand how a business works.  

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On 4/25/2022 at 12:00 PM, SoCal Deek said:

I assume that a pretty contemporary design is coming. I know that many on here have pointed to the brick clad aesthetics of Seattle and Indianapolis as examples to emulate. It’ll be interesting to see which direction they go.

The brick would have been good for a downtown location.  But being out In Orchard Park, I think different materials will win out.   

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2 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

We can go around in circles on this forever but you REALLY don’t understand how a business works.  

 

I run a small business and I am a tenant in a hospital based setting.  

 

Stick to what you know and save yourself the struggle of guessing what I don't.

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48 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

I run a small business and I am a tenant in a hospital based setting.  

 

Stick to what you know and save yourself the struggle of guessing what I don't.

Perfect, then you should understand. I own a large company but I don’t gift my personal family funds to buy the buildings we occupy as some sort of gift to ‘my’ hundreds of employees, or customers….do you? The buildings are a cost of doing business, just like copy machines and paper clips. They are paid for through rent, which ultimately comes from the price we charge for our services. 

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1 minute ago, SoCal Deek said:

Perfect, then you should understand. I own a large company but I don’t gift my personal family funds to buy the buildings we occupy as some sort of gift to ‘my’ hundreds of employees, or customers….do you? The buildings are a cost of doing business, just like copy machines and paper clips. They are paid for through rent, which ultimately comes from the price we charge for our services. 


Did the space you rent exist before you occupied it?

 

 

If you vacate the space, will the owner demolish the buildings? 

Did the public fisc build your buildings for you? 
 

What is about this particular business that the owners of the Rams, Patriots, Jets and Giants (heck, even the Cowboys) don’t understand that you can help them with? 

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1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:


Did the space you rent exist before you occupied it?

 

 

If you vacate the space, will the owner demolish the buildings? 

Did the public fisc build your buildings for you? 
 

What is about this particular business that the owners of the Rams, Patriots, Jets and Giants (heck, even the Cowboys) don’t understand that you can help them with? 

First, you have to accept that the NFL is not like a normal business. You cannot open a franchise anywhere you want. In essence the Owner is stuck in the City he/she has a team…or at least for as long as the City will support it, and even then the other owners have to approve a get off jail free card. It’s a unique synergistic relationship between the City/Region and the Team/Owner. The most recent example was the Chargers leaving San Diego when the voters rejected a stadium bond. 
 

Second, as I’ve said on here too many times to count, we can all debate who should help pay for the stadium…but…one thing is certain. The more people that cost is spread over, the cheaper ticket prices will be (and they’ll never be ‘cheap’ in the normal sense of the word).


So….you can certainly dislike public funding. I’m not going to take that stance away from you. It’s a really valid one. But, there are only two alternatives: either the team leaves or the ticket prices go through the non existent roof…which ultimately ends up in the project not penciling out and again…the team leaves. That’s pretty much it.  There’s no third choice where the Owners say: “ya know I really like those nutty Bills fans, I think I’ll buy them a new stadium…they deserve it”.

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3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

First, you have to accept that the NFL is not like a normal business. You cannot open a franchise anywhere you want. In essence the Owner is stuck in the City he/she has a team…or at least for as long as the City will support it, and even then the other owners have to approve a get off jail free card. It’s a unique synergistic relationship between the City/Region and the Team/Owner. The most recent example was the Chargers leaving San Diego when the voters rejected a stadium bond. 
 

Second, as I’ve said on here too many times to count, we can all debate who should help pay for the stadium…but…one thing is certain. The more people that cost is spread over, the cheaper ticket prices will be (and they’ll never be ‘cheap’ in the normal sense of the word).


So….you can certainly dislike public funding. I’m not going to take that stance away from you. It’s a really valid one. But, there are only two alternatives: either the team leaves or the ticket prices go through the non existent roof…which ultimately ends up in the project not penciling out and again…the team leaves. That’s pretty much it.  There’s no third choice where the Owners say: “ya know I really like those nutty Bills fans, I think I’ll buy them a new stadium…they deserve it”.


Well I certainly understand NFL isn’t like other businesses. You are the one who, too many times to count, has compared it to every other business in an effort to point out I don’t understand “how business works”. 

 

Leaving this aside, in paragraph 1 you very convincingly explain why an owner “is stuck in a city” and the extreme difficulty in moving because “you can’t open a franchise anywhere you want”.  Yet in paragraph 3 you state one of only 2 choices is “the team leaves”.  Also, that there is no “3rd choice”.  Of course there is.  The public entities can call the teams bluff (“Austin” and “like San Diego” we’re laughable lies) and make the owner kick in a few hundred million more. Boom. 
 

Ticket prices?  Leaving aside that’s icing on cake money for most owners and the secondary market determines what a lot of what in person attendees pay (and the vast vast majority of fans never set foot in the stadium),  the cost will go “through the roof” for 50,000 season ticket holders already in the current deal via PSLs.  No matter what the ticket prices would have been if Pegula has to cover the majority of the stadium costs, they would never be in the top 10 in the NFL.  It’s a meaningless argument anyway.  People will chose to pay or not to pay based on the perceived value.  The market will force Pegulas pricing.  He won’t tolerate a half empty stadium. 

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39 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:


Well I certainly understand NFL isn’t like other businesses. You are the one who, too many times to count, has compared it to every other business in an effort to point out I don’t understand “how business works”. 

 

Leaving this aside, in paragraph 1 you very convincingly explain why an owner “is stuck in a city” and the extreme difficulty in moving because “you can’t open a franchise anywhere you want”.  Yet in paragraph 3 you state one of only 2 choices is “the team leaves”.  Also, that there is no “3rd choice”.  Of course there is.  The public entities can call the teams bluff (“Austin” and “like San Diego” we’re laughable lies) and make the owner kick in a few hundred million more. Boom. 
 

Ticket prices?  Leaving aside that’s icing on cake money for most owners and the secondary market determines what a lot of what in person attendees pay (and the vast vast majority of fans never set foot in the stadium),  the cost will go “through the roof” for 50,000 season ticket holders already in the current deal via PSLs.  No matter what the ticket prices would have been if Pegula has to cover the majority of the stadium costs, they would never be in the top 10 in the NFL.  It’s a meaningless argument anyway.  People will chose to pay or not to pay based on the perceived value.  The market will force Pegulas pricing.  He won’t tolerate a half empty stadium. 

They’re stuck AFTER they build a stadium. We’ll just agree to disagree. Thanks for the well reasoned discussion. 

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