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From Dawg Pound to Bills Mafia - Browns Fans Leaving for the Bills


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7 hours ago, GunnerBill said:


Which is even more reason why the NFL should have been proactive last year. Because they could have suspended him, said he would remain suspended until completion of all legal matters and then at that point instigated their own disciplinary process. It would be odd now to suspend him for the duration of the civil proceedings when a grand jury has declined to indict. 


On whether being found liable in civil law would change my view, I don't think so. We have had a similar case in the UK with a mid ranking Scottish footballer, the unfortunately named David Goodwillie, who was not charged with rape by the CPS because of insufficient evidence but was held to be liable for tresspass to the person by a civil court and ordered to pay damages. He re-started his soccer career at a much lower level but was successful and signed by a higher up club only for them to reverse that decision under public pressure. I understand why people were so angry but again I feel instinctively nervous about restricting someone's right to employment on the basis of a civil court decision. It isn't just the standard of proof which us different it is the evidenciary standards, and the purpose of the court that is different too. I speak to judges all the time in my profession and I know senior judges in the UK who sit in the civil jurisdiction who would feel intensely uncomfortable about their decisions being relied on in that way. As one described it to me - the criminal law is about the offense and the alleged perpatrator, the civil law is primarily about restitution to the claimant. Once you start mixing those concepts up you are really getring away from what the system is designed to do. 


I would certainly be more understanding of a decision to ban him for life on the basis of a finding against him in civil court. It might ease my discomfort in the sense that there is some sort of legal finding against him (though would not change the fact that in the eyes of the law he would be innocent because innocence is for the criminal courts) but no, I have to be honest it would not totally remove it. 


My standard has not changed. I was just pointing out that there were important differences. If I was running the league office my policy would be indefinite suspension while under criminal investigation for any tier 1 offense (not sure what the equivalent American term is) and a life ban if convicted. 

The UK has the best example of why this sort of tolerance for celebrities is so awful, the UK has Jimmy Savile. Accusations first came out 50 years before he died and were ignored for the rest of his life. After his death investigations started and hundreds of people have co e forward to share their stories of being harmed by him.  

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3 hours ago, Batman1876 said:

The UK has the best example of why this sort of tolerance for celebrities is so awful, the UK has Jimmy Savile. Accusations first came out 50 years before he died and were ignored for the rest of his life. After his death investigations started and hundreds of people have co e forward to share their stories of being harmed by him.  


Saville was investigated seriously twice while alive and both times the investigations were shut down after pressure from those in powerful positions. That is a story of corruption as much as anything else. Opportunities were missed to bring him to justice. 

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On 3/19/2022 at 9:47 AM, GunnerBill said:


I mean unless you have evidence of corruption. Which you clearly don't.


I reckon if on a random day in the middle of last year I'd have put a poll on this site asking "do you believe in the principle of innocent until proven guilty?" there would have been an overwhelming majority that said they did. But society is being manipulated towards mob rule sadly. And this thread is an example of that. 


Absolutely. I have very genuine and very real fears for the maintenance of fair justice systems in what perceive themselves civilised western democracies over the next 50 years. There is a definite and frightening trend away from the cold, hard, objectiveness of the law to thirst for a vengence style of justice system where public opinion triumphs over due process. 


Unless we stand up for the principles even when it gives us outcomes that might make us uncomfortable we are heading for disaster. Sadly, it is often only those of us inside the system who are really fighting for it. Others will only appreciate what we have lost when it is gone. I remember speaking to one of the then most senior judges in the UK about this at length in 2015. Pretty much every fear he had back then is already to some extent beginning to become a reality. 

I haven’t read all of this thread, but just wanted to say that it’s not just the legal system that’s heading for disaster.   We now live 100% in the Information Age.  We get hourly, maybe minutely (is that a word), updates and google has the answer to every question you can ask. 

I don’t need a judge to tell me if someone is guilty. I don’t need a scientist to tell me if vaccines work.  I don’t need a financial expert to buy stock. There’s a Reddit page or YouTube video or blog and don’t forget Twitter and Facebook feeds to give me all the information I need.  In a matter of minutes I can be an expert on any topic and people that spend entire life long careers studying the intricacies of a topic are just elitists on the payroll of some rich guy/corporation. 

opinion defines fact every day 



edit/add:  Wealthy, powerful people definitely enjoy “special” treatment in the systems that govern us all. They always have. And it’s that increasing ineqiuity that makes it easier to distrust the very systems we need to ensure our equality.  


Edited by Dan
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On 3/18/2022 at 11:33 PM, gordong said:

So glad we don’t have that problem…. The nfl is really showing it true colors …. This is going to backfire on Cleveland feel sorry for those fan they deserve way better than that crap.


I agree but it will all fade if he goes there & starts to win games winning changes even the biggest scum bag into a fan favorite ... 


Just look at AB and others in NFL history ... Hell some fans here were talking about the Bills picking up Kareem Hunt .

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17 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

He had his best season statistically by a mile in 2020 without Hopkins.  4,822 yards, 33 TD's, 7 INT's, 112.4 passer rating.  I guess you could use the garbage time argument but he's a damn good qb.  I think he's a garbage human being but can't deny the Browns just put themselves in Super Bowl contention over the next few years.

He also won 4 games that year.

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