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Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.


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1 minute ago, Richard Noggin said:

It's amazing posters haven't forced the mods' hands on this thread already. Can't imagine how many posts have been deleted, or at least how many private warnings have been issued. We are a fanbase/region/nation divided with respect to worldviews. I'd just like to posit the approach that maybe, just maybe, given the entirety of the history of Western Civilization, that we consider power dynamics, and grant some grace to those speaking their truths to power. In this case, let's allow that maybe Flores (and apparently whomever else has signed on to this class action suit) have at least some merit to their claims. 

 

It's entirely possible to hold onto one's pre-conceived personal views on these sensitive issues AND exercise a modicum of empathy and open-mindedness until more information comes to light. History tells us those in power are usually guilty to some extent of trying, even unconsciously, to maintain the status quo. It takes unpopular whistle blowers, sometimes, to shed specific light on this reality. 

 

But what do I know. 

 

Well.  More than one thing can be true.

 

The NFL almost certainly stuck in a biased and inequitable hiring pattern for top coaches.  There are only 32 of these positions.  The owners and CEOs want to feel comfortable and confident about their coaching hires. 

 

What people do most of us feel most confident can do a job competently? 

Someone who has done it before! 

 

What people do most of us feel most comfortable with?

Usually, with people who are "like us" in some way - have some commonality of background, education, patterns of speech, jokes, whatever.  We "click" with some people and don't "click" with others, and usually don't put a lot of thought into why.

 

So we have a pattern in the NFL of hiring "retreads" - coaches who have done it before - and also of hiring the people the owner or GM (or whoever has the hiring authority) feels most comfortable with.  Then HCs want to hire coordinators they've worked with and feel most comfortable with.  There's also nepotism and cronyism - do we really think Steve Belichick got play calling responsibilities after an open search for the best talent?  Or Britt Reid was the best LB coach?

 

I don't think it needs a "whistleblower" to know that a lot of owners seem to have fixated on a new coaching hire probably before the old one gets the axe.  Gruden and Urben Meyer would be two examples.  The Rooney rule has just been treated as an inconvenient formality and circumvented in all kinds of superficial ways (which Florio enumerated in his PFT piece on the topic if anyone is interested).

 

Which is why the NFL raised the bar on the Rooney rule to say there must be two external minority candidates and an in-person interview with one external minority candidate.

 

But it obviously isn't helping too much so far, because it doesn't change the fundamental pattern of a limited number of decision makers, choosing coaches who have either "done it before", or who they feel most comfortable with.

 

If the NFL really wants to foster diversity at the upper levels of coaching, it needs a very different strategy than the Rooney Rule.  I think minority coaches have a perfect right to be mad as hell and to want there to be a more equitable hiring process which gives talented young coaches in general a more realistic chance at a hire.

 

That said, I think Flores lawsuit (on the face of it) is not going to accomplish too much.  Some depends upon what's behind Belichick's texts and so forth, but companies do continue with a series of interviews even after they have identified a leading candidate those involved in the search want to hire, so it would be a pretty high burden of proof to establish that the later interviews are a "sham".  It is, of course, always possible that a later interview will knock everyone's socks off and change the picture. 

 

So I don't think it really sheds much light - we already know it's going on - and I'm not sure what it will change.

 

But it will make a hell of a stir.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Well.  More than one thing can be true.

 

The NFL almost certainly stuck in a biased and inequitable hiring pattern for top coaches.  There are only 32 of these positions.  The owners and CEOs want to feel comfortable and confident about their coaching hires. 

 

What people do most of us feel most confident can do a job competently? 

Someone who has done it before! 

 

What people do most of us feel most comfortable with?

Usually, with people who are "like us" in some way - have some commonality of background, education, patterns of speech, jokes, whatever.  We "click" with some people and don't "click" with others, and usually don't put a lot of thought into why.

 

So we have a pattern in the NFL of hiring "retreads" - coaches who have done it before - and also of hiring the people the owner or GM (or whoever has the hiring authority) feels most comfortable with.  Then HCs want to hire coordinators they've worked with and feel most comfortable with.  There's also nepotism and cronyism - do we really think Steve Belichick got play calling responsibilities after an open search for the best talent?  Or Britt Reid was the best LB coach?

 

I don't think it needs a "whistleblower" to know that a lot of owners seem to have fixated on a new coaching hire probably before the old one gets the axe.  Gruden and Urben Meyer would be two examples.  The Rooney rule has just been treated as an inconvenient formality and circumvented in all kinds of superficial ways (which Florio enumerated in his PFT piece on the topic if anyone is interested).

 

Which is why the NFL raised the bar on the Rooney rule to say there must be two external minority candidates and an in-person interview with one external minority candidate.

 

But it obviously isn't helping too much so far, because it doesn't change the fundamental pattern of a limited number of decision makers, choosing coaches who have either "done it before", or who they feel most comfortable with.

 

If the NFL really wants to foster diversity at the upper levels of coaching, it needs a very different strategy than the Rooney Rule.  I think minority coaches have a perfect right to be mad as hell and to want there to be a more equitable hiring process which gives talented young coaches in general a more realistic chance at a hire.

 

That said, I think Flores lawsuit (on the face of it) is not going to accomplish too much.  Some depends upon what's behind Belichick's texts and so forth, but companies do continue with a series of interviews even after they have identified a leading candidate those involved in the search want to hire, so it would be a pretty high burden of proof to establish that the later interviews are a "sham".  It is, of course, always possible that a later interview will knock everyone's socks off and change the picture. 

 

So I don't think it really sheds much light - we already know it's going on - and I'm not sure what it will change.

 

But it will make a hell of a stir.

 

 

Of course I mostly agree with you here. But..when you say "we" are aware of the situation already, who all is included in that collective? Because I've read posters in this thread who absolutely DO agree with it, and I've read those who do NOT. My point is that there is NOT yet a consensus that equitable representation and opportunity is a problem in the NFL. Therefore the stir caused by this lawsuit could bring about broader, popular awareness and attention that might force or perhaps inspire tangible change. 

 

How such change would actually transpire is beyond my capacity for optimism. It's a fraught campaign. 

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23 minutes ago, billieve420 said:


He was but doesn’t mean they couldn’t disagree on selection. If Grier was in control of 53 and wanted Tua and other people agreed. Flores could have went along with the majority which could have included the owner even if he preferred someone else.

 

I wouldn’t be surprised if this was main contention between the Front office and HC which lead to his firing.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10013297-dolphins-rumors-brian-flores-preferred-to-draft-justin-herbert-over-tua-tagovailoa


https://thespun.com/nfl/afc-east/miami-dolphins/report-brian-flores-tua-tagovailoa-got-into-shouting-match

 

 

Sure he could have. Or it could gone as reported that he agreed to Tua. For sure it’s been documented that he soured pretty quickly on him. Tua does not come out of this looking good at all. 

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48 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Where did the Giants admit to it? 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/02/01/giants-brian-flores-was-a-serious-candidate-we-hired-the-coach-we-felt-was-most-qualified/

Flores contends that the interview was a sham, but the Giants responded by saying that Flores was a serious candidate for the job.

“We are pleased and confident with the process that resulted in the hiring of Brian Daboll,” the statement said. “We interviewed an impressive and diverse group of candidates. The fact of the matter is, Brian Flores was in the conversation to be our head coach until the eleventh hour. Ultimately, we hired the individual we felt was most qualified to be our next head coach.”

Bills defensive coordinator Leslie Frazier, Giants defensive coordinator Patrick Graham, Cowboys defensive coordinator Dan Quinn, and Bengals defensive coordinator Lou Anarumo also interviewed for the Giants before Daboll was hired. Frazier and Graham are Black and the NFL’s Rooney Rule requires teams to interview at least two external minority candidates for head coaching openings but Flores’ suit contends that they were not under real consideration for the job.

 

Unless we know exactly what Belichick heard and from whom, we really don't know that the Giants, in fact, made a hiring decision prior to Flores interview.

And if they did, they very likely won't admit to it.

 

On Pro Football Talk, Mike Florio claims that most owners (75%) already know who they want to hire next before they make their decision to fire the current coach.  That would make most interview processes an "equal opportunity sham": both the white and the minority candidates are working with a stacked deck where the winning card is already known.  I think this is still true in some cases (Raiders hiring Gruden; Jacksonville hiring Urban), but in others, the process is more open and a legitimate open search is conducted.  (I don't think the Pegulas knew they wanted to hire McDermott when they fired Ryan, for example).

 

My guess would be that Mara legitimately was very interested in hiring Flores, and had his FO people talking to Flores (for example, the Jan 11 text conversation where McDonnell supposedly said that Daboll might leave Buffalo for a lateral move).    But once they hired Joe Schoen as GM, he  may have stipulated for a strong voice or maybe the deciding voice in hiring the HC, and he had a different set of names that started with Brian Daboll, and included Leslie Frazier.  TBH, I think Schoen wanted an offensive guy, and Daboll was his top choice - and actually, the only offensive coach they interviewed.

 

 

If they'd already interviewed Frazier and Graham then they didn't have to interview Florez at all, maybe they wasted his time but it wouldn't really be because of the Rooney Rule.

 

Oh external never mind.

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Last week the topic of why Flores still didn’t have a HC position came up with Peter King and Mike Florio.

 

Around the 5min10 mark it starts. 

 

‘’

For King the major sticking point was ‘the personality stuff’ such as  4 OC’s, 4 QB coaches and 4 OL coaches in 3 years. 

 

I think it was Doug Gottlieb who said “If you can’t get along with Chris Grier, you can’t get along with anybody.”

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24 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Of course I mostly agree with you here. But..when you say "we" are aware of the situation already, who all is included in that collective? Because I've read posters in this thread who absolutely DO agree with it, and I've read those who do NOT. My point is that there is NOT yet a consensus that equitable representation and opportunity is a problem in the NFL.

 

I don't think there will ever be consensus on any issue, and it's pretty typical that the loudest voices are not necessarily the majority view.

 

That said when I say "we all know what's going on", I think that even people who don't believe that equitable NFL coach hiring is a problem, would, if questioned about some specific cases, admit that they recognize the coaching choice was pre-determined and any interview process of other candidates was a sham.

 

Jon Gruden being hired as the HC of the Raiders would be one example.

 

That's what I mean by saying "we already know it (sham interviews where the hire is known) is going on".

 

3 minutes ago, QLBillsFan said:

21 % of HC since the Rooney Rule began are have been minorities. So that’s interesting. 

 

I'm not doubting you, but that's a much higher figure than I've seen elsewhere - can you share your source?

 

And of course, right now there is only one (Tomlin) - and a couple of recently hired minority HC's were fired after 1 year, which many people regard as way too short of a time to have a fair chance at building a team and culture.

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Just now, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't think there will ever be consensus on any issue, and it's pretty typical that the loudest voices are not necessarily the majority view.

 

That said when I say "we all know what's going on", I think that even people who don't believe that equitable NFL coach hiring is a problem, would, if questioned about some specific cases, admit that they recognize the coaching choice was pre-determined and any interview process of other candidates was a sham.

 

Jon Gruden being hired as the HC of the Raiders would be one example.

 

That's what I mean by saying "we already know it (sham interviews where the hire is known) is going on".

Okay, the agreement "we" have is that the Rooney Rule forces "sham" or "token" interviews, rather than the lack of representation is a serious problem requiring solutions. I don't disagree with that assessment of general fan sentiment. 

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1 hour ago, TheFunPolice said:

How does a coach tank?

 

Prepare poorly? The players would have to be in on it you'd think. 

The most obvious way would've been to start Josh Rosen the entire season in 2019.  Flores didn't do that though and inserted Fitzpatrick after Rosen struggled.

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37 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

Okay, the agreement "we" have is that the Rooney Rule forces "sham" or "token" interviews, rather than the lack of representation is a serious problem requiring solutions. I don't disagree with that assessment of general fan sentiment. 

It does in some instances but I'm sure there have been black coaches who wowed in interviews and got a job who wouldn't have gotten the interview without the Rooney rule in place.  I think something like the Rooney rule is needed as this idea that a private business hiring practices will overcome racial or other biases and naturally go to some sort of meritocracy utopia is naive.  They'll continue to tweak it as it's not going away.

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This does point out the silliness of the Rooney Rule as it currently stands.  Teams know whom they want to hire, yet they're required to waste the time and effort of several other people to pretend anyone else has a shot.

 

Overall, the black HCs have done about as well as the white HCs.  Tomlin is an excellent HC.  Caldwell had great success.  Flores himself did a great job pulling the Dolphins up from being terrible to being not that bad -- although he didn't seem to be getting anywhere moving beyond that level.  But there have been so few black HCs that the sample size isn't representative of their skill.

 

The rule about how if you have a minority coach on your staff and you lose him to another team, then you get extra draft picks -- now THAT'S something that should help get more black coaches into the game.  And yet it still doesn't seem to be working.  

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the NFL will circle the wagons and Flores will get Kaepernicked. No one tells billionaires what to do. 

 

The Rooney rule all but assures that teams will interview candidates they don't intend to hire. 

 

Flores would have been a very bankable HC candidate for the remaining openings. Do you think Arians will stick around now that Brady is gone? 

 

This lawsuit just reinforces his reputation as a hot head who can't work with people. Were the Broncos racist when they hired Vance Joseph?  

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23 minutes ago, stuvian said:

the NFL will circle the wagons and Flores will get Kaepernicked. No one tells billionaires what to do. 

 

The Rooney rule all but assures that teams will interview candidates they don't intend to hire. 

 

Flores would have been a very bankable HC candidate for the remaining openings. Do you think Arians will stick around now that Brady is gone? 

 

This lawsuit just reinforces his reputation as a hot head who can't work with people. Were the Broncos racist when they hired Vance Joseph?  

Good point! I think the man just Kaepernick'd himself...

 

He will never have another NFL HCing job again. Shame too, because he was a pretty good NFL HC taking that Dolphins team to a 10-6 record. Sweeping the Patriots is never easy.

 

 

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Why hasn't any former players filed a class action suit against the NFL and NBA? These leagues need more diversity and representation among players. If I was cut by either league I would definitely sue. Once you get to a certain level of athletics it's all pretty shady how certain players make it and others don't when you are all so closely talented and a lot of times it's based on how well the scouts think you will continue to develop and not about how good you are currently. Doesn't seem fair. Clearly there is a bias towards certain demographics of players for whatever reason, one of which is perceived athleticism.

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I think we can all agree that Flores has committed career suicide as it pertains to the NFL.
 

What drove him to it?  And why now?  I wonder if in interviews he was asked the tough questions about inability to work with others?  Does the Rooney Rule have more to do with his actions, even more than he has let on?  Did Ross get in the ears of other owners?  Whatever the reason, he decided that doing this now was more important to him than ever coaching in the NFL again.  I do applaud his convictions and standing up for what he believes.

 

The ramifications of this bombshell lawsuit won’t go away anytime soon.

 

1.  Ross and his ownership.  NFL will certainly look into the allegations of tank for pay.  If Ross did make that offer, what other shady things has he done?  You don’t wake up one morning and suddenly change your morale compass and offer the HC of your team 100 grand per loss unless you are a dirtbag to begin with.  At the very least there will be monetary and possibly draft pick fines.  In the end,  I don’t know how Ross survives this.

 

2.  Rooney Rule.  On the face of it, seemed like a good way to get minorities a foot in the door where they may not have had a chance previously.  In practice, it probably did not fully do what was intended.  Yes, it’s great to get your name bandied around as a HC or coordinator candidate.  It may help you later.  Problem is, most coaching replacements are picked even before the old coach is fired.  That doesn’t mean the Rooney interviews are shams per se, but are likely not going to lead to HC jobs.  
 

There needs to be a deep cultural change regarding racism before something like the Rooney Rule will have its intended effect.  I guess if there were less racism, we wouldn’t need rules like that.

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4 hours ago, FireChans said:

Flores wasn't good as a head coach. And he hated his black QB. His owner chose the black QB over the black coach.

 

Flores is not going to win. He is torpedoing his career for nothing. A former Bills AGM wanted to hire a former Bills OC with an impressive resume because he had worked with him. That former Bills AGM did his due diligence in interviewing other candidates because that's what a good manager would do. But he wanted Daboll and he hired him. 

 

The rest is just smear and hearsay.

fired after 10-6 and 9-8 records....

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  • BillsFan4 changed the title to Brian Flores suing NFL, NY Giants, Dolphins, Broncos.

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